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Offlinebioguy
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why inocultae grain and spawn manure
    #11204315 - 10/08/09 12:40 AM (8 years, 16 days ago)

why is it that we inoculate grain and spawn manure. ie why not the other way around or just use one or the other. What is the underlying science behind doing grain to manure.


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Offlinehaxjester
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Re: why inocultae grain and spawn manure [Re: bioguy]
    #11204428 - 10/08/09 12:54 AM (8 years, 16 days ago)

Using grain as spawn to a bulk substrate provides thousands of inoculation points, which help to speed up colonization by starting from as many points as possible, which in turn helps to fend of contams by colonizing it with mushroom mycelium first. 

One can just inoculate grain, then case and grow from there without ever spawning to a different substrate.  The other bulk substrates, such as poo, straw, or coir provide a better source of nutrients.

You could also just inoculate a bulk sub without spawning grain to it, but the time it would take for 100% colonization would take much longer than spawning to it with grain, therefore increasing the chance of contamination. 



"I started out as an opportunistic renegade. By now, I've lasted long enough to become sort of an American Original Respectable Renegade." -Jack


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Invisible13shroomsM
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Re: why inocultae grain and spawn manure [Re: bioguy]
    #11204444 - 10/08/09 12:57 AM (8 years, 16 days ago)

you inoculate grain and when its fully colonized you spawn the grain to whatever.  manure is just a good substrate that you spawn your myc to.  you dont spawn manure. 


myc and grain = spawn

manure/coir/straw = substrate materials

BRF/verm (Pf-tek) = substrate  *once colonized can also be used as spawn*

verm/wormcasting/gypsum/used coffee grounds/etc.. = additives


a combo of the above items = mushrooms :stoned:


:scaryshroom::thumbup:


13:mushroom2:


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Offlinebioguy
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Re: why inocultae grain and spawn manure [Re: haxjester]
    #11204715 - 10/08/09 01:32 AM (8 years, 16 days ago)

but if you start with manure instead of grain and crumbled the myc well would it be about the same.


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Offlinebioguy
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Re: why inocultae grain and spawn manure [Re: 13shrooms]
    #11204725 - 10/08/09 01:34 AM (8 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

13shrooms said:
you inoculate grain and when its fully colonized you spawn the grain to whatever.  manure is just a good substrate that you spawn your myc to.  you dont spawn manure. 


myc and grain = spawn

manure/coir/straw = substrate materials

BRF/verm (Pf-tek) = substrate  *once colonized can also be used as spawn*

verm/wormcasting/gypsum/used coffee grounds/etc.. = additives


a combo of the above items = mushrooms :stoned:


:scaryshroom::thumbup:


13:mushroom2:




Thanks dude. The question was why.


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Invisible13shroomsM
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Re: why inocultae grain and spawn manure [Re: bioguy]
    #11205067 - 10/08/09 02:44 AM (8 years, 16 days ago)

oh, more nutrients. :super:


plus when making spawn jars of grain you sterilize the grain, manure is pasteurized (when used for bulk).

but price would be my issue.:eek: wbs is cheaper but its still not that cheap. 

grains like rye berries are kinda pricey, manure is free in most places so its better for bulk. 

you can inoculate manure spawn jars if you mix with verm so it doesnt compact but once you sterilize your bulk rye berries your risking a high chance of contams once you expose them to mix with spawn.

I dont think pasteurizing rye for bulk would work very well.

you could spawn manure jars to pasteurized bulk manure no prob.

grains need to be sterile or other crap will grow b4 your myc.

That a better answer.:stoned:

:scaryshroom::thumbup:

13:mushroom2:


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Offlinebioguy
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Re: why inocultae grain and spawn manure [Re: 13shrooms]
    #11208594 - 10/08/09 04:59 PM (8 years, 16 days ago)

I guess I just don't understand why we use grain at all. Manure is free. Manure can be sterilized. Mushies love manure. Why not inject spores or liquid culture into sterile manure, spread to pasteurized manure, case and fruit. I've cloned to straight manure, cloned to manure agar but I always go back to wbs to get started. I agree with the inoculation point comment made earlier but my bags (1 gallon) never break apart anyways so I just crumble it up.

I understand it is what it is but I don't get it. Am I missing something.


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InvisibleDoc_T
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Re: why inocultae grain and spawn manure [Re: bioguy]
    #11208617 - 10/08/09 05:02 PM (8 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

bioguy said:
I guess I just don't understand why we use grain at all.  Am I missing something.




Try it and see, let us know what happens.


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Re: why inocultae grain and spawn manure [Re: bioguy]
    #11208619 - 10/08/09 05:02 PM (8 years, 16 days ago)

Rye is sterile after you PC it while it colonizes. If you sterilize poo which you would have to, to be innoced and colonize you would kill off alot of good things in it


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Invisible13shroomsM
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Re: why inocultae grain and spawn manure [Re: Shea25]
    #11208643 - 10/08/09 05:04 PM (8 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

oh, more nutrients. :super:





who said that earlier.:shrug:


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OfflineThyrax
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Re: why inocultae grain and spawn manure [Re: 13shrooms]
    #11208655 - 10/08/09 05:06 PM (8 years, 16 days ago)

hey, just try to inoculate manure with spore or lc, and see what happen! THen you will know why we don't do that!


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Offlinegotfungus
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Re: why inocultae grain and spawn manure [Re: Thyrax]
    #11208978 - 10/08/09 06:01 PM (8 years, 15 days ago)

wbs and peanuts is the shit!  :dancer: just fyi


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Offlinebioguy
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Re: why inocultae grain and spawn manure [Re: Thyrax]
    #11210337 - 10/08/09 09:40 PM (8 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

Thyrax said:
hey, just try to inoculate manure with spore or lc, and see what happen! THen you will know why we don't do that!




I thought the forum was so everyone didn't have to make the same mistakes. You are welcome to try trial and error if you like but I prefer a more academic approach. You know...try and learn something. Besides, if/when it fails that tells me nothing about why...just like your response.

FINALLY, I put a closed cap cubensis stem (chopped and peroxide rinsed) into sterile manure the other day and it looks like its gonna work fine (4 or 5 days now and its grown an inch up through the surface). Thats close enough to LC for me so now I know what happens...it works! Did you expect the world to stop turning or contams to eat me in my sleep or something.


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InvisibleDoc_T
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Re: why inocultae grain and spawn manure [Re: bioguy]
    #11210374 - 10/08/09 09:45 PM (8 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

bioguy said:
I thought the forum was so everyone didn't have to make the same mistakes.




Right. People try different things. They talk about their successes but not so much about failure- because really, who needs to learn new ways to fail?
So if you find little to no info on a particular method, you can assume that one of two things is true:
1) it doesn't work
2) you have thought of something that no other mycologist ever discovered.

Either could be true, but which is more likely?


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Offlinebioguy
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Re: why inocultae grain and spawn manure [Re: Doc_T]
    #11210870 - 10/08/09 10:48 PM (8 years, 15 days ago)

Good point dude, I'm sure someone tried to use manure before they came up with a brf/verm recipe. But when my clone tissue grew in manure it made me think.
AND wronguys way uses a mix of manure/wbs/verm for LC or spores and the buzz is that it works great.

I am really in search of the science behind the use of grain to help me understand and brainstorm new ideas.

Nutrients seem to be the answer but I also believe it may be a carryover from teks like pf that use NO manure. These teks were developed for urban/home cultivation without manure. They are popular and efficient thus they have become ingrained into mycology culture. But is it necessary...WHY is it necessary.


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InvisibleDoc_T
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Re: why inocultae grain and spawn manure [Re: bioguy]
    #11210960 - 10/08/09 10:58 PM (8 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

bioguy said:
I am really in search of the science behind the use of grain to help me understand and brainstorm new ideas.




Mycology is as much an art as it is a science. We do things the way we do them because those ways work.
There's more than a hundred years of history behind cultivation as we know it, and another couple centuries behind that. All moving us toward the current state of the art.

New ways are invented and discovered- and you might be the person to do it. So try it and see.

But do it the usual way a few times just to see what it is that we are all going on about. Until you can do it this way, there's no point to trying some other way.


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Invisibleratdog
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Re: why inoculate grain and spawn manure [Re: Doc_T]
    #11211356 - 10/08/09 11:52 PM (8 years, 15 days ago)

i have done the strait poo thing and will again.

it works  .


but i have found after a long trail that it is best to let it sit after 1st pc of 1 hr for 3-5 days and it will start to ferment. then pc again for 1.5 hrs. cool and knock with lc.

works just like you wanted / said. and then crumble into tray at 90%


good luck


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some people just don't get it:spank:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11241796
so here is a video or two or three for you guys:rolleyes:


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