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Mephistophelian
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Mycorrhizal Culturing
#11199393 - 10/07/09 09:29 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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I know for the most part why these things grow and what is required. But can any of those factors be introduced in a lab setting to have them culture on agar? Not for fruiting indoors but simply culturing on agar. I heard its not possible but I wanted to get a feel from you guys.
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ratdog
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Registered: 08/16/09
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shure you can why do you say you can't?
-------------------- some people just don't get it http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11241796 so here is a video or two or three for you guys
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Mephistophelian
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Re: Mycorrhizal Culturing [Re: ratdog]
#11199808 - 10/07/09 11:02 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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I haven't any experience in it...but I had a fellow who seemed to be very full of himself on reciting information about how Mycorrhizal's function and the fact that I wanted to spend some of my hard earned money on some of his cultures, he preceded to insult my intelligence and patronize me while saying "these aren't the sorts of things that can be put into petri dishes".
Lack of his lab experience showing through...I asked, how do you propogate and spread your cultures to sell them then? Of course he had no real answer.
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Paresthesia
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Registered: 07/02/08
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Well, I know that chanterelles have been cultivated indoors successfully, but they were cultured along with conifer seedlings. I don't think plants are the only factor here, though. I believe some species of bacteria may facilitate the relationship between the fungus and the host plant.
As far as agar is concerned, I've read that mycorrhizae will grow on it, but the growth is very weak.
You might try incorporating plant sugars from the host plant into your agar formulation, or attempt to germinate seeds of the host plant on agar, like you were growing orchids. The seeds would have to be soaked in a weak peroxide solution to kill off any potential agar contaminants.
-------------------- "We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time." - T. S. Eliot
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Mycelio
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Those chanterelles were first grown on agar. Symbiosis with pine seedlings was the second step. Here's a description of the whole experiment: http://www-mykopat.slu.se/Newwebsite/mycorrhiza/kantarellfiler/texter/rtf.htm
To answer the original question, yes you can definitely cultivate mycelium of mycorrhizal species on agar, though for some of them you need special nutrient mixtures.
Carsten
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Mephistophelian
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Re: Mycorrhizal Culturing [Re: Mycelio]
#11200220 - 10/07/09 12:12 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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See now that's what I had thought. Though I couldn't say 100% I didn't want to argue with him and get myself caught with my foot in my mouth. Good to know now...just what I had suspected.
Maybe I can deal with someone else who isn't such an ass then.
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Paresthesia
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Are you attempting to grow something in particular? If you're looking for something to inoculate plants with, commercial products are available, but these are propagated with spores. If someone is trying to sell you a mycorrhizal treatment for plants it's most likely either dry spores or spores suspended in some kind of gel. They harvest spores by collecting fruit bodies from the species in question, grinding them up and then shaking the mess over fine mesh screens.
Mycorrhizal treatments are really only necessary with container plants or sterile soils. If you have healthy garden soil, there are already native mycorrhizae living in it. No need to shell out your hard earned cash, just transfer a few shovelfuls of healthy soil to a new garden bed when you put it in. 
If you're trying to grow chanterelles or boletes, you can plant stem butts against the tree roots and some may actually start growing. Also, if you wash mushrooms before cooking them, you can make up a spore slurry using the rinse water and a little salt and sugar. Shake it up a couple of times a day for three days and then pour it over the roots of the potential host tree.
-------------------- "We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time." - T. S. Eliot
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Mephistophelian
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Very interesting Para,
No, actually I was looking into hydroponic modifications with mycelium tissues (which I suspect you would use rather then spores but I think spores may work as well) to enhance the growth characteristics. I've contacted a few companies and they don't part with these in culture form nor do they advise this is the best route. The complicated and takes alot of time they say, so what I'm going to do is give a whirl down the road a commercial version for Hydro and as well a home-job version (RR talked about it in the Advanced section) and see if I can't mimic results. I mean...if i can make some mycelium and shred it and feed it into the system (or massive amounts of spores) and it produces better results, its a 0 cost improvement.
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SOUTHERN
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i have been looking at chants lately and my ideas on putting them on agar. is to find a tree they have a relationship with .. like oak sometimes.. take some small roots of it grind them up and mix them in the agar. i would love to have some chants growing in a controlled enviroment. i have noticed that chants come up in moss alot i don't know if it is because they like the roots of moss. or if moss like the same kinda places the chants do.. i have been taking all my stem butts and putting them in a moss patch that i have never seen chants growing.. i looked a couple days ago and it didn't look like it was taking off.
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Paresthesia
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Re: Mycorrhizal Culturing [Re: SOUTHERN]
#11206379 - 10/08/09 08:37 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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It can take between 3 and 10 years for a chanterelle patch to get established, according to Stamets.
-------------------- "We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time." - T. S. Eliot
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falcon



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Chant mycelium will grow on agar and grain and supplemented sawdust. Get a clone as soon as they first start fruiting in early summer from as immature a mushroom you can find.
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ratdog
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Re: Mycorrhizal Culturing [Re: falcon]
#11213425 - 10/09/09 05:50 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
falcon said: Chant mycelium will grow on agar and grain and supplemented sawdust. Get a clone as soon as they first start fruiting in early summer from as immature a mushroom you can find.
i agree but were would someone find the link to some of the proved supp. sawdust makeups. i know they like aspen around here but what are the additions?
? ground up st. johns wort???
-------------------- some people just don't get it http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11241796 so here is a video or two or three for you guys
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Mephistophelian
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Re: Mycorrhizal Culturing [Re: ratdog]
#11213820 - 10/09/09 08:22 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Are chants plant specific or are they a fairly 'universal' type for feeding on? Not necessarily fruiting potential but living and thriving at its more minimal states.
They seem to live on grain, agar and the like...it sounds as though they are fairly universal.
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ratdog
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Registered: 08/16/09
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my thoughts are that they are universal and that at a certain point they come to rely on a larger circulatory system to provide the positive pressure needed to transport nutrients. sort of like an artificial hart....LOL
any way once they reach a certain size the cells i figure need the cycle of flow .......... and i have come to wonder if grown in a sealed chamber one could reproduce the positive and negative interval needed.
just some rambling thoughts from someone who has no clue.
-------------------- some people just don't get it http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11241796 so here is a video or two or three for you guys
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SOUTHERN
NAIL DRIVER



Registered: 03/29/09
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Re: Mycorrhizal Culturing [Re: ratdog]
#11217608 - 10/09/09 08:41 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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AWESOME GUYS. I DIDN'T KNOW THEY WOULD TAKE ON AGAR. if i get some more this year i will plate until i get growth. i nearly did it the other day but figured it wouldn't work.. this is great i never new that would work .. has anyone here ever tried to fruit a chant?? they would be great to learn to grow in the summer .the bugs dont eat them to quick.
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Mephistophelian
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Re: Mycorrhizal Culturing [Re: SOUTHERN]
#11219777 - 10/10/09 08:59 AM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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If anyone gets a plate of this...I'd love to get ahold of it to give it a try with a few things.
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houdinihar
Adventurous Learner


Registered: 09/12/08
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there are plates and spores of mycorrhizals offered for sale, but of course the problem comes with trying to fruit them. they seem to need their host plant, whether they are ecto or endo types. it would be a significant commercial breakthrough when someone cracks this baby, and people have beeen working on it for quite a number of decades now. i have no doubt something positive will transpire form all this research someday, Mephistophelian.
houdinihar
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Mephistophelian
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Re: Mycorrhizal Culturing [Re: houdinihar]
#11222045 - 10/10/09 05:15 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Oh no, I don't care to fruit any. 
I'm wanting to use just the mycelial network in hydroponic functions. No fruiting...only the benefits of the mycelium sitting on the root network. Companies have been extremely reluctant to even acknowledge test tubes or dishes of these types of species. Discouraging.
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solumvita
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I imagine if you are using the mycorrhizals as extensions of your roots in hydroponic solutions that you would need a mycorrhizal specific to that plant.
I do wonder about the survival of the mycelium on the roots especially when you start adjusting the EC and pH of your nutrient solution.
It will be really interesting to see the results of your experimentation Meph.
-------------------- One of these days all the answers will be revealed until then we learn from each other! www.mushrush.co.za
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Mephistophelian
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Re: Mycorrhizal Culturing [Re: solumvita]
#11227094 - 10/11/09 02:55 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well you can buy spore mixes of very generalized mycorrhizal species that connect to any plant you use in the hydroponic system, its just that I wanted to save myself a great deal of money by propogating my own spores/cultures instead of constantly having to buy more and more from the hydro store.
I'll give chants a try if anyone ever ends up culturing some. The pH fluctuations shouldn't an issue if you keep your pH where it needs to be. Most plants don't waiver outside of the 6-7 region unless you have specialized stuff. Though the EC I can't say what would come of that.
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Mycelio
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Unless you are growing pine trees, chant mycelium will be of no use for you. Chants are ectomycorrhizal mushrooms.
What kind of plants is it about? Perhaps you are looking for endomycorrhiza and species like Gigaspora or Glomus?
Carsten
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SOUTHERN
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MEPHISTOPHELIAN.. i am on the hoping to get a plate soon if i can find some more chants before it kewls off. i got two good size patchs i check every couple days. i am thinking this week there should be some more come up. anything is worth a try.. u never know what u might learn.
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Mephistophelian
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Re: Mycorrhizal Culturing [Re: SOUTHERN]
#11229686 - 10/11/09 09:29 PM (14 years, 3 months ago) |
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Your right Mycelio. That was what I was afraid of...that it was only pine based.
Glomus is exactly the type I was wanting to use, but those are not culturable in the sense that I'd try to propogate myself. Ah well...(thanks for the offer southern)
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Mycelio
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Yes, you won't be able to cultivate Glomus species on agar, but for example in a pasteurized soil mixture together with Tagetes and rye grass. When using Glomus you will have to lower your additions of fertilizers, especially high amounts of phosphorous prevent growth and formation of symbiosis with roots.
Carsten
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c-ray
lovin' it

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Re: Mycorrhizal Culturing [Re: Mycelio]
#11845083 - 01/17/10 01:16 AM (14 years, 14 days ago) |
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http://web.archive.org/web/20070819171704/http://www.sunseed.org.uk/page.asp?p=167 http://mycorrhiza.ag.utk.edu/mlate.htm
Quote:
Some of the best known hosts for mycorrhizal colonization -- both pot culture and field culture -- include bahia grass, sudan grass, sorghum, corn, millet, carrots, leeks, white clover, subterranean clover, sunflower, oats, and barley.
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