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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Registered: 07/10/99
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Viveka]
    #1074921 - 11/21/02 09:41 PM (19 years, 11 days ago)

See if you got Canadian news and A lot of Canadians online(like here for instance) stated that we all lived the mountains. Well then you'd have an excuse to believe that. A lot of Americans( including Michael Moore) say those very things. We didn't make the film an American did. If you think Michael Moore is the only one with these views from America THEN you have a point.


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


Edited by sir tripsalot (11/21/02 10:02 PM)


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Rono]
    #1075275 - 11/22/02 12:05 AM (19 years, 11 days ago)

http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20021119.html

Viewer beware
In "Bowling for Columbine," Michael Moore once again puts distortions and contradictions before the truth
By Ben Fritz (ben@spinsanity.org)
November 19, 2002

Michael Moore insists he wants to be taken seriously. The author and filmmaker, an unabashed champion for liberal causes, is challenging America's gun culture with his latest endeavor, the documentary "Bowling for Columbine." Like his first film, "Roger and Me," it consists of a mix of satirical interviews with average people, confrontational interviews with celebrities and Moore's thoughts on what is going wrong with America. The argument often takes a back seat to the humor, but that's just Moore's style, as he explained to the Contra Costa Times in March: "I always assume that only 10 to 20 percent of people who read my books or see my films will take the facts and hard-core analysis and do something with it. If I can bring the other 80 percent to it through entertainment and comedy, then some of it will trickle through."

The problem is, once you delve beneath the humor, it turns out his "facts and hard-core analysis" are frequently inaccurate, contradictory and confused. At one point in the film, Moore apparently even alters a Bush-Quayle campaign ad, changing history to make a point. Like many of the political celebrities increasingly filling our TV screens and bookstores, he is entertaining, explicitly partisan, and all too willing to twist facts to promote himself and his vision of the truth.

Moore's problems with veracity date back to "Roger and Me," in which he famously shifted the actual timeline of events for dramatic effect. While garnering some criticism, most notably from the New Yorker's Pauline Kael, the distortions didn't get too many people riled up; indeed, the movie made him a celebrity. This year, with the double-whammy of his best-selling book Stupid White Men and the box office success of "Bowling for Columbine," one of the most financially successful documentaries ever, Moore has become the American left's most prominent media figure.

They could use a better spokesman.

As I showed in April, Stupid White Men is riddled with inaccuracies and ad hominem attacks. In it, Moore claims that five-sixths of the 2001 defense budget went towards a single plane and that two-thirds of President Bush's campaign funds came from just over seven hundred people. Both facts are obviously untrue to anyone remotely familiar with the defense budget or campaign finance law and are disproved by the very sources Moore cites. He accuses former President Clinton of having "kick[ed] ten million people off of welfare," assuming that every person who left the rolls during the '90s boom was brutally left to fend for herself, rather than leaving for a job. The book is riddled with similarly absurd arguments, most notably that the recession is a creation of the wealthy who "are wallowing in the loot they've accumulated in the past two decades, and now they want to make sure you don't come a-lookin' for your piece of the pie."

"Bowling for Columbine" is more of the same. Although, like Stupid White Men, it's full of hilarious moments, Moore can't seem to keep his facts or his arguments straight.

Counterintuitively for a liberal, he wants to argue that gun control is not a significant factor in America's high rate of gun deaths compared to other countries, and to do so, he travels to Canada, which he claims is similar to the U.S. in every way except its attitude towards self-reliance. He dismisses typical liberal concerns about poverty creating crime, noting that, "Liberals contend [gun violence is a result of] all the poverty we have here. But the unemployment rate in Canada is twice what we have here." By every measure of international comparison, though, Canada's poverty rate is significantly lower than that of the U.S., thanks to the generous social insurance programs that he repeatedly praises in the film.

Much more mendaciously, Moore has apparently altered footage of an ad run by the Bush/Quayle campaign in 1988 to implicate Bush in the Willie Horton scandal. Making a point about the use of racial symbols to scare the American public, he shows the Bush/Quayle ad called "Revolving Doors," which attacked Michael Dukakis for a Massachusetts prison furlough program by showing prisoners entering and exiting a prison (the original ad can be seen here [Real Player video]). Superimposed over the footage of the prisoners is the text "Willie Horton released. Then kills again." This caption is displayed as if it is part of the original ad. However, existing footage, media reports and the recollections of several high-level people involved in the campaign indicate that the "Revolving Doors" ad did not explicitly mention Horton, unlike the notorious ad run by the National Security Political Action Committee (which had close ties to Bush media advisor Roger Ailes). In addition, the caption is incorrect -- Horton did not kill anyone while on prison furlough (he raped a woman).

Although he uses statistics much less frequently in "Bowling for Columbine" than in Stupid White Men, Moore still manages to present at least one figure inaccurately. During a stylized overview of US foreign policy, he claims that the U.S. gave $245 million in aid to the Taliban rulers of Afghanistan in 2000 and 2001. The Taliban aid tale is a favorite of Moore's that he has repeated in numerous media appearances over the past year. Contrary to his claim, the aid did not go to the Taliban -- it actually consisted of food and food security programs administered by the United Nations and non-governmental organizations to relieve an impending famine.

Beyond the satire and the fabrications, just what is Moore's argument? It's often hard to tell. At times, while dismissing the influence of pop culture, he blames the government's militarism, suggesting that it's somehow relevant that the day of the Columbine High School shootings was also the day of one of the heaviest U.S.-led NATO bombings in Yugoslavia. (Moore is an ardent opponent of U.S. military intervention - soon after the war on terrorism began, he called the President and Vice President "Bin Bush" and "Bin Cheney" and said on the radio program "Democracy Now" [Real Player audio], "We're the national sniper when it comes to going after countries like Iraq.") Even setting aside this questionable chain of causality, Moore contradicts his own thesis that foreign bombing leads to domestic gun violence when he approvingly notes that the United Kingdom, which played a leading role in bombing Yugoslavia with the U.S., had only 68 gun homicides the same year America had 11,127.

Contradicting himself doesn't seem to be a problem for Moore, though. In the movie and subsequent media appearances, he has derided America's lack of a social safety net, comparing us unfavorably to Canada, even though he states explicitly in the film that the two countries don't differ significantly in terms of poverty.

Moore also claims several times that our higher gun homicide rate must be the result of American culture rather than the greater number of guns in our country, citing the fact that Canada has a much lower gun homicide rate despite having seven million guns in its ten million homes (Moore ignores the fact that Canada has significantly fewer handguns and a much stricter gun licensing system). Yet that doesn't stop him from repeatedly bashing the anti-gun control NRA and even making a visit to the home of its president, Charlton Heston, the climax of the movie. In an e-mail to supporters , Moore even referred to Heston as a "gun supremacist." And in an interview on Phil Donahue's MSNBC show recently, Moore said he supports banning all handguns just minutes before stating, "I don't think, ultimately, getting rid of the guns will be the answer."

Repeatedly, though, he returns to the issue of fear in the movie, claiming that excessive coverage of gun violence by the media makes Americans scared of each other and therefore more violent. This circular argument doesn't make any sense either. On the one hand, Moore has made an entire film purporting to investigate why the U.S. has the highest rate of gun violence in the developed world. He then attempts to answer the question by theorizing that the media provides too much coverage of gun violence, causing citizens to fear each other. If gun violence is really so bad, though, shouldn't the media be covering it and don't citizens have something to be afraid of? And if the media is indeed over-covering the issue and America is safer than we think, why did Moore make this film?

Ironically, Moore interviews and cites the work of USC Professor Barry Glassner, whose book The Culture of Fear attacks the media for sensationalizing incidents of bad news while ignoring the bigger picture. One of the book's primary examples is extensive media coverage of school shootings that ignores the overall downward trend in youth violence in recent years. Indeed, Glassner points out that people are three times more likely to be struck dead by lightning than die in a school shooting. Moore, however, focuses extensively in the film on the Columbine massacre and a school shooting in his hometown of Flint, Michigan, and doesn't seem all that concerned with the country's epidemic of lightning strikes.

Here, as ever, Michael Moore just doesn't seem to know what he thinks. When pressed, in fact, he isn't even sure he actually has a point. Appearing on CNN's Moneyline last spring, host Lou Dobbs asked him about the inaccuracies in Stupid White Men. "How can there be inaccuracy in comedy?" Moore responded.

Satire is not an excuse for dissembling. Great satirists like Jonathan Swift and Mark Twain used hyperbole as a form of social criticism. Michael Moore, however, uses lies, distortions, and nonsensical arguments to mask cheap attacks and promote his own political agenda. Take him seriously at your own risk.

Clarification - 11/20 9:34 AM EST: The figure on homicides in the United Kingdom should have read that that country had 68 gun homicides the same year the U.S. had 11,127, not total homicides.



--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1075319 - 11/22/02 12:24 AM (19 years, 10 days ago)

Thanks luvdem...

I love you too

:laugh:


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1075492 - 11/22/02 01:43 AM (19 years, 10 days ago)

the recession is a creation of the wealthy who "are wallowing in the loot they've accumulated in the past two decades, and now they want to make sure you don't come a-lookin' for your piece of the pie."

True enough.



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Viveka]
    #1076424 - 11/22/02 11:25 AM (19 years, 10 days ago)

EvilEye, thanks for responding to my post....now allow me to retort...
Firstly, as a Canadian citizen I probably know more about living in the U.S. than you realize.  In fact, I think it would be safe to say that most Canadians know more about the U.S. than they know about their own country...and probably many Americans.

Quote:

Yeah, at least the ignorant, lifeless ones who sit in front of their TV all day and really believe that comfort is the meaning of life.


Unfortunately you have just described the vast majority of the population of the western world.

Quote:

An individual decides to put on his seatbelt when he gets into his car. Has he ever ever been in an automobile accident previous to making this choice?..no



That is a bad analogy...not wearing a seatbelt won't affect anybody but yourself, however buying a gun has many implications that affect everyone around you.

Quote:

No one NEEDS anything. If someone wants to buy a gun for self-defense, you're wasting your time trying to analyze the way their mind must be working when they make this choice. It's pretty simple really. Maybe owning a gun will make someone more paranoid. What's your point?



I agree, with you...but what other motivation would someone have for buying an automatic weapon besides fear?  If you can think of a better reason I would love to hear it.

Quote:

When you spent all that time asking yourself about the American way of life, did you ever think about population density?


Have you ever even been to Canada?  We have large cites just like the U.S...and we don't have the same problems...ever hear of a little town called Toronto?  Or how about the U.K. or Japan, where the population density is far greater than the U.S...where is all the violence there?

Quote:

What is it with Canadians and other non-americans always making rampant generalizations about Americans?


  If the rest of the world is trying to tell you something, maybe you should consider the thought that they may have a point, before you get defensive....If all your friends are  trying to tell you that you have spinach in your teeth do you think that they are lying to make you look stupid?  No, you thank them for telling you and remove the spinach... :smirk:

Quote:

Is fear an exportable commodity or does it only sell to Americans? Did you ever clutch a teddy bear late at night because you were afraid the BOOGEY MAN was under your bed? 


  Of course fear isn't just localized to the U.S., but no other country seems to have made such an industry out of it...



--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1076694 - 11/22/02 01:28 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

Rail Gun...the funny thing is that I agree with most of what that article says...but that doesn't change the fact that Michael Moore raises some very valid points that need to be examined further. Go see the movie, then decide for yourself.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (11/22/02 01:29 PM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Rono]
    #1077204 - 11/22/02 05:02 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

In reply to:

Unfortunately you have just described the vast majority of the population of the western world.



Sad but true.
.
.
In reply to:

however buying a gun has many implications that affect everyone around you.



Perhaps a better way to phrase this would be a criminal with a gun ...etc.
I have owned guns for 24 years and other than one or two noise complaints there has been no effect on anyone. Well I suppose I did help the owner of the gun store, gun makers, and ammo makers to earn a living but I suspect thats not what you meant. The vast majority of gun owners are the same as me. Law abiding. The Justice Dept reports less than 1/10 of 1 percent of guns are used illegaly.
.
.
In reply to:

I agree, with you...but what other motivation would someone have for buying an automatic weapon besides fear? If you can think of a better reason I would love to hear it.



Besides the best reason in the worldd... because we can, they are fun. That pesky bill of rights again.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1077276 - 11/22/02 05:30 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

The vast majority of gun owners are the same as me

Now that is a terrifying thought.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Xlea321]
    #1077279 - 11/22/02 05:33 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

Try to read the entire sentence. It may help you appear less foolish. Though I doubt it.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1077410 - 11/22/02 06:37 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

Yeah gun nuts are law-abiding. Right up until the day they go into a school and start blowing kids heads off.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1117261 - 12/06/02 03:10 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

So Luvdem, did you see the movie yet ? What is your responses to it if you have?

I think it was a great movie...very entertaining and in ways even educational.



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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: angryshroom]
    #1117283 - 12/06/02 03:14 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

If luvvie watched it his brain would explode. (and you still wouldn't see his hat move...)


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Xlea321]
    #1117313 - 12/06/02 03:19 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

hehe.

Well it does attack his views, I wouldn't really enjoy a movie glamorizing the meat industry.

Wouldn't it be illegal to make a movie like Moore's if the facts were just lies? It would seem that the movie theaters and producers wouldn't allow it. Im sure a lot of it is leaned towards his thoughts, and interviews are clipped out to what he wants, but, the people still said it.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: angryshroom]
    #1117670 - 12/06/02 04:59 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I saw his first movie. I'll never watch another of his.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: angryshroom]
    #1117710 - 12/06/02 05:12 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

Wouldn't it be illegal to make a movie like Moore's if the facts were just lies?



No.

In reply to:

It would seem that the movie theaters and producers wouldn't allow it.



Sure they would.

In reply to:

Im sure a lot of it is leaned towards his thoughts, and interviews are clipped out to what he wants



Without a doubt. With creative editing, you can make black appear white, and solids as fluid as the wind.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Evolving]
    #1118068 - 12/06/02 07:08 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

If his "facts" weren't true, then why would he want to spend all his time making a movie on untrue statements? Why isin't there a lot of controversy over it? Seems like everyone in my town and people who I've talked to about it say its a great movie, and they agree to what he is saying. Maybe its because I live in a liberal area... :smile:

Personally I think he makes some strong statements.

I still dont know what to say about it...why is there so many damn gun inflicted murders in the US (11,000) per year while other large, densly populated countries rank lower than 100...

Should something be done ? Seems liek it should be a lot harder to own a hand gun... Rifles are a different story I suppose.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Xlea321]
    #1118188 - 12/06/02 07:58 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)


Yeah gun nuts are law-abiding. Right up until the day they go into a school and start blowing kids heads off.


I have tried to be polite to you in my responses to your posts. But, this post of
yours is absolutely the stupidest thing I have ever seen you say.
You are insinuating that people who have an interest in guns, whether for
sporting reasons or for personal protection, are people who engage in violent and
terrible crimes. This is not true. Criminals and emotionally or mentally sick people
kill people with guns. Blame the person responsible for the action. Don't blame
law-abiding people who happen to have the same tool that the criminal or
unbalanced person used.

If someone gets drunk and gets in a car accident, and in the process kills several
people, should my car be taken away from me? No. I had nothing to do
with that accident, therefore my driving privileges should not be affected.

Through all of your posts, you have proven yourself to be blindly biased towards anything that is remotely liberal, and it is amazing that you cannot see that.


RandalFlagg


Edited by RandalFlagg (12/06/02 08:02 PM)


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1118965 - 12/07/02 01:30 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I would say that he's referring to the people who are mentally off, not the ones who are law-abiding.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1119093 - 12/07/02 02:21 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I have tried to be polite to you in my responses to your posts.

Cheers.

Blame the person responsible for the action. Don't blame


Tell me something. Would you give everyone in America a nuclear bomb? If not, why not? Sure, there are some people who would keep a nuclear bomb responsibly but there would be some who wouldn't.

Now work the argument on down. You wouldn't give them a nuclear bomb because that would kill too many people right? So would you give them a 10,000lb daisy cutter bomb? An F-16? A helicopter gun-ship? Keep going till you get to machine guns and then rifles and see what happens to your "Blame the weapon not the person" argument.

Through all of your posts, you have proven yourself to be blindly biased towards anything that is remotely liberal, and it is amazing that you cannot see that.

Lets stick to the arguments shall we. I could say you have shown yourself blindly biased towards anything that is remotely right-wing and it is amazing that you cannot see that. But what would be the point?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Xlea321]
    #1119620 - 12/07/02 11:56 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)


Blame the person responsible for the action. Don't blame



Tell me something. Would you give everyone in America a nuclear bomb? If not, why not? Sure, there are some people who would keep a nuclear bomb responsibly but there would be some who wouldn't.

Now work the argument on down. You wouldn't give them a nuclear bomb because that would kill too many people right? So would you give them a 10,000lb daisy cutter bomb? An F-16? A helicopter gun-ship? Keep going till you get to machine guns and then rifles and see what happens to your "Blame the weapon not the person" argument.


There is not a legitimate use for an F-16 or an attack helicopter, by a normal
citizen. However, there are uses for firearms by normal citizens. I believe it is an
essential right for the law-abiding section of the populace to have access to
REASONABLE weapons, so that if a circumstance were to arise, they would be
able to protect themselves.


Through all of your posts, you have proven yourself to be blindly biased towards anything that is remotely liberal, and it is amazing that you cannot see that.


Lets stick to the arguments shall we. I could say you have shown yourself blindly biased towards anything that is remotely right-wing and it is amazing that you cannot see that. But what would be the point?


Well, I do think that your bias affects your arguments, and therefore it is fair game
to mention it. But, you are right. What is the point in mentioning it?


RandalFlagg


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