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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Tear down cross on USA public lands?
    #11188745 - 10/05/09 07:38 PM (8 years, 18 days ago)

The Mojave Memorial Cross has stood proudly as a tribute to fallen soldiers since 1934, when WWI veterans erected the cross to honor their fallen brothers.  At the moment, however, the cross is boarded up (at left) courtesy of the ACLU, which wants to tear it down due to it being religious iconography on public lands.

The cross sits in the 1.6 million acre Mojave National Preserve and has been the subject of numerous court challenges since a National Park Services employee and the ACLU filed a 2001 lawsuit, claiming that the monument violates the Establishment Clause.

Both the District Court and the 9th Circuit of Appeals court have determined the cross to be unconstitutional.  The cross has staunch supporters, though – the nonprofit Liberty Legal Institute has taken up the cause, and the matter has been escalated to the U.S. Supreme Court, which is due to hear the case come fall.  Liberty Legal also set up a website for its supporters; Don’tTearMeDown.com has up-to-date information, background history, petitions and – of course – an online shop.

These army men (US soldiers in Iraq) return from the front lines soon, and – armed with 6 other soldiers and an armful of T-shirts, stickers and buttons – they plan to make their way across the United States to the memorial to raise awareness and support for the cause.  They will be accompanied by American Legion and Freedom Riders, and when they arrive at the memorial they plan to hang a wreath on it (perhaps everyone can agree that this is less of an eyesore than a plywood box) and read the name of their fallen comrades.

The underlying concern behind the fight for the Mojave Memorial Cross to remain standing isn’t just for this particular monument, but rather for all military monuments containing religious iconography.  Arlington National Cemetery has more crosses than any other, begging the question as to how it, too, might be affected by the Supreme Court’s ruling.


Not sure how an inanimate cross "stands proudly". Nor did I ever get the whole "Love thy Neighbor - and then kill him" mentally of Christian warriors meshes, but that is secondary.

Why or why not should this symbol be left to stand?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Tear down cross on USA public lands? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11188788 - 10/05/09 07:44 PM (8 years, 17 days ago)

We should remove it cause the army needs the room to stockpile weapons.:thumbup:

Go Navy. :cheer:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (10/05/09 07:45 PM)


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Offlinepalmersc
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Re: Tear down cross on USA public lands? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11188856 - 10/05/09 07:55 PM (8 years, 17 days ago)

How is it unconstitutional? A common phrase that gets thrown around is separation of church and state. You will find that nowhere in any of this nation's founding documents.

This phrase is taken from a letter Jefferson wrote to a Baptist church. If you read the whole leter you will see what he was talking about. Jefferson said this to mean that the church would be protected from interference from the government, not that the government would be protected from the church. The founding father's were an overwhelming majority evangelical Christian and they would be rolling in their grave if they saw America today.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Tear down cross on USA public lands? [Re: Icelander]
    #11188857 - 10/05/09 07:55 PM (8 years, 17 days ago)

As vocally adamant as I am here, I personally don't care either way. But there are few things that I find interesting.

Some of the military Christians who are heavily promoting the saving of this icon are aggressively confrontational. (No surprise there.)

I cannot help but note the illogical commingling of "the sacrifices of our veterans" with the legal issue at hand. This is typical of religious emotionalism. Many veterans who gave their lives were Jewish, Native American, atheist, agnostic and others; not ALL were Christian. ("But the world should revolve around my fantasy beliefs - dammit!")

If it is truly a generic symbol and not a Christian symbol as some protestors claim, then let's just replace it with a pentagram or Star of David.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Tear down cross on USA public lands? [Re: palmersc]
    #11188878 - 10/05/09 07:59 PM (8 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

How is it unconstitutional?



That is for the Supreme COurt to decide later this year.

Quote:

The founding father's were an overwhelming majority evangelical Christian and they would be rolling in their grave if they saw America today.




And would be really pissed to find that Blacks have rights and are (relatively) equal to Whites.

I thinks it's a great idea to  mold our society around your hypothetical projection of what dead men might think... :rolleyes:


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Offlinepalmersc
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Re: Tear down cross on USA public lands? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11188915 - 10/05/09 08:06 PM (8 years, 17 days ago)

This nation is great because of the men who founded it. Slowly it is being chipped away at and made into something it was never intended to be. The foundation they laid was so strong it has been the longest lasting republic under a single constitution. We have been blessed by God I believe, and unless we return to the tried and true path, I fear we will lose the freedom we enjoy.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Tear down cross on USA public lands? [Re: palmersc]
    #11188939 - 10/05/09 08:10 PM (8 years, 17 days ago)

Do you undertsnad that a dialog requires two-way communication and not just preaching?

Quote:

This nation is great because of the men who founded it. Slowly it is being chipped away at and made into something it was never intended to be.




Slave-free?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Tear down cross on USA public lands? [Re: palmersc]
    #11188960 - 10/05/09 08:13 PM (8 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

palmersc said:
This nation is great because of the men who founded it. Slowly it is being chipped away at and made into something it was never intended to be. The foundation they laid was so strong it has been the longest lasting republic under a single constitution. We have been blessed by God I believe, and unless we return to the tried and true path, I fear we will lose the freedom we enjoy.




Sometimes I'm so ashamed of the folk in this country.:sad:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Tear down cross on USA public lands? [Re: palmersc]
    #11189002 - 10/05/09 08:20 PM (8 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

palmersc said:
This nation is great because of the men who founded it. Slowly it is being chipped away at and made into something it was never intended to be. The foundation they laid was so strong it has been the longest lasting republic under a single constitution. We have been blessed by God I believe, and unless we return to the tried and true path, I fear we will lose the freedom we enjoy.




Right because the founding fathers were christian, not racist, could see into the future, and made sure that the Constitution was static.


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Tear down cross on USA public lands? [Re: palmersc]
    #11189034 - 10/05/09 08:23 PM (8 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

palmersc said:
The founding father's were an overwhelming majority evangelical Christian and they would be rolling in their grave if they saw America today.




1796 treaty with Tripoli



The majority of founding fathers were Deist. Not only that, but the majority of founding fathers thought christianity was stupid.

Fail.




Edited by learningtofly (10/05/09 08:27 PM)


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Invisiblejoemolloy
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Re: Tear down cross on USA public lands? [Re: palmersc]
    #11189068 - 10/05/09 08:26 PM (8 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

palmersc said:
How is it unconstitutional? A common phrase that gets thrown around is separation of church and state. You will find that nowhere in any of this nation's founding documents.

This phrase is taken from a letter Jefferson wrote to a Baptist church. If you read the whole leter you will see what he was talking about. Jefferson said this to mean that the church would be protected from interference from the government, not that the government would be protected from the church. The founding father's were an overwhelming majority evangelical Christian and they would be rolling in their grave if they saw America today.





I think the Founding Fathers were horrified at the incestuous and corrupt relationship between the Anglican Church and the British government and they never wanted church and state to mingle.

Read the Treaty of Tripoli which was signed in 1797 by John Adams and a unanimous vote in the Senate:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Tear down cross on USA public lands? [Re: learningtofly]
    #11189075 - 10/05/09 08:27 PM (8 years, 17 days ago)

Thank you for that


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblejoemolloy
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Re: Tear down cross on USA public lands? [Re: joemolloy]
    #11189079 - 10/05/09 08:27 PM (8 years, 17 days ago)

Learningtofly, you beat me to it.  Bastard.


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Tear down cross on USA public lands? [Re: joemolloy]
    #11189084 - 10/05/09 08:28 PM (8 years, 17 days ago)

aka double pwned him. :highfive:


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InvisibleBand of Gypsys
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Re: Tear down cross on USA public lands? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11189130 - 10/05/09 08:34 PM (8 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

The founding father's were an overwhelming majority evangelical Christian and they would be rolling in their grave if they saw America today.




How can Christians roll over in their graves?


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Invisiblejoemolloy
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Re: Tear down cross on USA public lands? [Re: Band of Gypsys]
    #11189141 - 10/05/09 08:36 PM (8 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Band of Gypsys said:
Quote:

The founding father's were an overwhelming majority evangelical Christian and they would be rolling in their grave if they saw America today.




How can Christians roll over in their graves?




It's called a miracle.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Tear down cross on USA public lands? [Re: Icelander]
    #11189163 - 10/05/09 08:40 PM (8 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Thank you for that




This whole thing makes me cross.

Christopher Cross.


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OfflineTheBalance
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Re: Tear down cross on USA public lands? [Re: palmersc]
    #11189323 - 10/05/09 09:03 PM (8 years, 17 days ago)

'...if they saw America today.'

'I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.'

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")

:uhoh:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Tear down cross on USA public lands? [Re: Icelander]
    #11189466 - 10/05/09 09:23 PM (8 years, 17 days ago)

I can't believe we lost our way and gave women the right to vote. :mad:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Tear down cross on USA public lands? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11189480 - 10/05/09 09:26 PM (8 years, 17 days ago)

"Once you go Christian you go crazy." - icelander:tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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