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HerbBaker
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 2,506
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Bluing Galerina? Nope, Psilocybe caerulipes.
#11187637 - 10/05/09 03:15 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Edited by HerbBaker (10/06/09 01:17 PM)
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thelaughingman
Bulbous Poopaloid
Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 877
Loc: Central WA
Last seen: 5 years, 4 months
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Re: Bluing Galerina ? [Re: HerbBaker]
#11187679 - 10/05/09 03:22 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Did you print any of them?
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Twiztidsage
Fungal Databaser
Registered: 12/05/08
Posts: 8,089
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
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Is it blue or just dark? It is kind of hard for me to tell....
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World Spirit
PNW
Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 9,817
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Re: Bluing Galerina ? [Re: HerbBaker]
#11187710 - 10/05/09 03:28 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hmmmmmmm interesting
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thelaughingman
Bulbous Poopaloid
Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 877
Loc: Central WA
Last seen: 5 years, 4 months
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Thats what i was thinkin. If it is blue, maybe its not galerina but a new variety of psilocybe
Or just some weird galerinas.
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sprout70
Loving, Learning, and Growing
Registered: 09/15/06
Posts: 425
Loc: NWGA
Last seen: 6 years, 5 months
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Quote:
World Spirit said: Hmmmmmmm interesting
crazy, does it smell like some sort of psilocybe or different altogether?
-------------------- Ain't talkin', just walkin'Through the world mysterious and vague Heart burnin', still yearnin' Walkin' through the cities of the plague. Well, the whole world is filled with speculation The whole wide world which people say is round They will tear your mind away from contemplation They will jump on your misfortune when you're down Ain't talkin', just walkin' Eatin' hog eyed grease in a hog eyed town. Heart burnin', still yearnin' Some day you'll be glad to have me around. B.Dylan
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northgahunt
Genesis 1:30, 9:3
Registered: 05/29/09
Posts: 568
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Wow, great looking pics. Could these be Galerina steglichii? If so, wouldn't these be rare and contain Psilocybin? These would be the bluest staining I seen in any pics.
DannyGlick may know more about these.
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mycoelf
Agent Of Chaos
Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 555
Loc: hyperspace
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Galerina autumintallis no doubt, The pic with the blueish cap looks like lower fungi contam for sure, the pic 2nd to last with the "blue stem looks like spores landed, gallerina having rusty brown for without doubt. There is a test for indole alkaloids in the field guide (Audubon),
Take a print and don't be confused by the browning reaction in gallerina, many people have died thinking that they found active mushrooms later to find out in a bad way.
Psilocybe blue is bright blue, like electric blue on white flesh ranging to a really dark blue in high potency species. (Azurecens) There is also a distinct SMELL to psilocin containing species, I believe this is common in cubies, but there is also a common scent note with other high potency, that makes me think that psilocin has a scent.
Bottom line do not eat, take a print, do some taxonomy.
Peace
Mycoelf
-------------------- Mycoelf Sterility is a process that can be likened unto infinity, which is a long walk, the closer to the end you start before beginning, the more achievable the goal of infinity becomes. Remember, cleanliness in next to goddessness
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northgahunt
Genesis 1:30, 9:3
Registered: 05/29/09
Posts: 568
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Re: Bluing Galerina ? [Re: mycoelf]
#11187947 - 10/05/09 04:00 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
mycoelf said: Galerina autumintallis no doubt, The pic with the blueish cap looks like lower fungi contam for sure, the pic 2nd to last with the "blue stem looks like spores landed, gallerina having rusty brown for without doubt. There is a test for indole alkaloids in the field guide (Audubon),
Take a print and don't be confused by the browning reaction in gallerina, many people have died thinking that they found active mushrooms later to find out in a bad way.
Psilocybe blue is bright blue, like electric blue on white flesh ranging to a really dark blue in high potency species. (Azurecens) There is also a distinct SMELL to psilocin containing species, I believe this is common in cubies, but there is also a common scent note with other high potency, that makes me think that psilocin has a scent.
Bottom line do not eat, take a print, do some taxonomy.
Peace
Mycoelf
I have had weilii bruise pretty close to this same color. Maybe warriorsoul will post a print. Is Galerina autumintallis known to bruise this color?
Pic of the weilii I picked a couple days ago for color comparison. Blue doesn't show as well in pic.
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Workman
1999 Spore War Veteran
Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 3,601
Loc: Oregon, USA
Last seen: 8 hours, 58 seconds
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Re: Bluing Galerina ? [Re: HerbBaker]
#11188682 - 10/05/09 05:29 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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That looks to be Galerina steglichii to me and the bluing not from mold growth. Very close to this German collection.
http://mushroomobserver.org/22405?_js=on&_new=true&id=22405
-------------------- Research funded by the patrons of The Spore Works Exotic Spore Supply My Instagram Reinvesting 25% of Sales Towards Basic Research and Species Identification
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thetonebone72
Hunter -Gatherer
Registered: 03/11/06
Posts: 1,125
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
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Re: Bluing Galerina ? [Re: Workman]
#11189021 - 10/05/09 06:22 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Wow! Kinda scary how the bruising mimics psilocybe on the stem and perfectly along the margin...
That's definitely a noob killer.
-------------------- Hunt On, Good Fellow
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lqdtrance
Hunter
Registered: 04/12/08
Posts: 2,373
Loc: NY
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cool finds man!!
-------------------- Pandha Piranha.
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inski
Cortinariologist
Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 5,767
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It is actually psilocybin bruising, I'm not sure what other toxins are present though! inski..
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World Spirit
PNW
Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 9,817
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Re: Bluing Galerina ? [Re: inski]
#11189080 - 10/05/09 06:27 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'd like to read the literature you've just referenced.
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inski
Cortinariologist
Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 5,767
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I read it here among many other places. http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Galerina
There is a published paper on the chemical analysis of this species also. Gartz, J. 1995. Cultivation and analysis of Psilocybe species and an investigation of Galerina steglichii. Annali dei Musei Civici--Roverto vol. 10:297-306. Dated 10/1994. inski.
Edited by inski (10/05/09 06:36 PM)
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World Spirit
PNW
Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 9,817
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Re: Bluing Galerina ? [Re: inski]
#11189150 - 10/05/09 06:38 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I learned something new today. Thanks.
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inski
Cortinariologist
Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 5,767
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Your welcome, it is understandable when you learn that the two genera, Psilocybe and Galerina are sister clades. inski.
Edited by inski (10/05/09 06:43 PM)
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northgahunt
Genesis 1:30, 9:3
Registered: 05/29/09
Posts: 568
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Re: Bluing Galerina ? [Re: Workman]
#11189410 - 10/05/09 07:16 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Workman said: That looks to be Galerina steglichii to me and the bluing not from mold growth. Very close to this German collection.
http://mushroomobserver.org/22405?_js=on&_new=true&id=22405
Any idea where these were found and if Galerina steglichii are known to grow there. If it turns out to be Galerina steglichii, this will be an incredible find. I certainly hope warriorsoul gets a positive id.
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Magick
Thinker
Registered: 01/25/09
Posts: 846
Last seen: 6 years, 2 days
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It does not surprise me much that there are species of galerina with psilocybin. Look at the structure of both psilocin/psilocybin and the amatoxins. They both have indole at their center! This is because both groups of compounds are created from the enzymatic metabolism of tryptophan.
I think that the only difference between galerinas and psilocybes are a few key-enzymes which have evolved from a couple decades/centuries of evolution. Likewise it would not surprise me to learn that amanitas are also, on a genetic level, similar to galerinas and psilocybes. My theory is that amanitas probably came first and throughout evolution the galerinas and other smaller mushrooms (which still contain the same enzymes required to make amatoxins) began evolving. Perhaps the psilocybes actually evolved from galerina sp. or the like, and just don't use those particular enzymes anymore.
However it could've gone the other way around too, wherein amanitas/galerinas evolved from psilocybes as protection from predators (like ourselves =p) The reason I think it's the other way around though is because amatoxins actually have the majority of the tryptophan structure intact - differing only by having an amide group (with a good number of substituents) rather than a carboxylic acid group.
But that's only a theory Hm, I'd like to find others who may know more about the genetics of mushrooms who have input on this idea.
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DannyGlick
Registered: 04/14/08
Posts: 3,889
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Quote:
northgahunt said: DannyGlick may know more about these.
No I don't, but I think I agree that they could be Galerina steglichii.
I'm a little jealous of Herb right now. Cool finds soul.
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jet li
The One
Registered: 07/09/07
Posts: 4,279
Loc: penis double yew
Last seen: 4 months, 8 days
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Re: Bluing Galerina ? [Re: HerbBaker]
#11190170 - 10/05/09 09:04 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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cool find. I've seen Galerina marginata bruise black, but never blue like those. very interesting.
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lqdtrance
Hunter
Registered: 04/12/08
Posts: 2,373
Loc: NY
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Good info inski
-------------------- Pandha Piranha.
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falcon
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 8,035
Last seen: 14 hours, 36 minutes
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Re: Bluing Galerina ? [Re: HerbBaker]
#11190265 - 10/05/09 09:14 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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The second picture looks like a Psilocybe, is it a different mushroom?
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DannyGlick
Registered: 04/14/08
Posts: 3,889
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Re: Bluing Galerina ? [Re: falcon]
#11190302 - 10/05/09 09:19 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yeah I was pondering that too. Think maybe he's pulling our legs or what?
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falcon
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 8,035
Last seen: 14 hours, 36 minutes
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Not sure, there aren't any rhizos, and I'd expect them, but the color of the gills sure look like Psilocybe, and I'm feeling some tugging.
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inski
Cortinariologist
Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 5,767
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Re: Bluing Galerina ? [Re: falcon]
#11190474 - 10/05/09 09:43 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I think they are all the same species but the colour is off due to an incorrect white balance! inski..
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falcon
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 8,035
Last seen: 14 hours, 36 minutes
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Re: Bluing Galerina ? [Re: inski]
#11190526 - 10/05/09 09:49 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yeah, that might be it.
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jet li
The One
Registered: 07/09/07
Posts: 4,279
Loc: penis double yew
Last seen: 4 months, 8 days
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Re: Bluing Galerina ? [Re: inski]
#11190735 - 10/05/09 10:24 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yeah, I think you are right, inski. However, that had also crossed my mind.
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HerbBaker
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 2,506
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Re: Bluing Galerina ? [Re: jet li]
#11192120 - 10/06/09 07:34 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Print seems to match Psilocybe..
Perhaps P. caerulipes, but its never been found on man made mulch.
Edited by HerbBaker (10/06/09 07:59 AM)
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World Spirit
PNW
Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 9,817
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Re: Bluing Galerina ? [Re: HerbBaker]
#11192195 - 10/06/09 08:04 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hmmmmmmmmmmm
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Workman
1999 Spore War Veteran
Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 3,601
Loc: Oregon, USA
Last seen: 8 hours, 58 seconds
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Re: Bluing Galerina ? [Re: HerbBaker]
#11192384 - 10/06/09 09:01 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Ah well...... So much for wishful thinking It is still a good find. What kind of temperatures are these fruiting in?
-------------------- Research funded by the patrons of The Spore Works Exotic Spore Supply My Instagram Reinvesting 25% of Sales Towards Basic Research and Species Identification
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
Loc: Registered: 6/04/02
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Re: Bluing Galerina ? [Re: Workman]
#11192735 - 10/06/09 10:28 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Average temperatures for the area right now are in the low 40's at night to the mid 60's during the day. The last photo is interesting. The mulch appears to be pine added more than one year. The needles indicate it might have been White Pine, Pinus strobus, the largest tree in Eastern North America which sometimes reaches 230 ft. in height. The acorn is probably Black Oak, Quercus velutina. Also the other leaves are interesting. I take it this is a very beautiful area.
This probably isn't a residential area. It looks very "park-like." The chips were created with a commercial shredder, not the kind most people have at home.
The mushrooms certainly isn't Psilocybe caerulipes unless its morphology has wider definitions than previously known. It isn't a Galerina though. We know that. I'm not a Psilocybe expert though. What section would you place it in?
For the moment I am thinking it might be a new species of active mushroom.
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ehtdaedlufetarg
Toadstool Taxonomy
Registered: 04/26/07
Posts: 2,076
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
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#2 in the second set of Photos Looks a lot like P. Caerulipes. Ive seen that black "eye" in the center of caps like that.
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
Loc: Registered: 6/04/02
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Yeah, the photo in Audubon and PMOTW both show that on dry mushrooms. These, which are wet, are not striate. P. caerulipes is when it's wet.
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Workman
1999 Spore War Veteran
Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 3,601
Loc: Oregon, USA
Last seen: 8 hours, 58 seconds
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Its hard to know what section without microscopy, but it is temperate and nonannulate. Probably something in the Cyanescens/Semilanceatae. Its not something I immediately recognize, but I think there is still a chance it is P. caerulipes. I am just starting to get an idea of the variability of that species or species complex. But it easily could be an unrecognized species.
I am now wondering if the Michigan collection is actually something different now that I have looked at a few other eastern samples.
Psilocybe caerulipes collections
-------------------- Research funded by the patrons of The Spore Works Exotic Spore Supply My Instagram Reinvesting 25% of Sales Towards Basic Research and Species Identification
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lqdtrance
Hunter
Registered: 04/12/08
Posts: 2,373
Loc: NY
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Re: Bluing Galerina ? [Re: Workman]
#11193429 - 10/06/09 12:31 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Very interesting. I will be keeping an eye on this thread for sure. Once again, Nice finds
-------------------- Pandha Piranha.
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
Loc: Registered: 6/04/02
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Re: Bluing Galerina ? [Re: Workman]
#11193531 - 10/06/09 12:45 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Workman said: I am just starting to get an idea of the variability of that species or species complex. But it easily could be an unrecognized species.
I am now wondering if the Michigan collection is actually something different now that I have looked at a few other eastern samples.
Psilocybe caerulipes collections
I don't think the Michigan collection is P. caerulipes, but I have no idea what it is.
Like you, I recognize this species definitely needs more work. It is unlikely, but still possible, that this could be another morphological form. I hope I don't assume too much but it would be nice to see your work-up on this one. If it is P. caerulipes they are very variable in form.
I consider the Maine collection to be very different from the PA collection.
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vjp
Canowicakte
Registered: 05/28/09
Posts: 3,619
Loc: Ste-ye-hah' mah
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really cool find.
What size are the caps?
i looked at the michigan collection pics and have never seen any variation of ps. caerulipes that looked like that. Even some of the new york finds look different then the ones i find.
mr.mushrooms can you link the PA finds?
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HerbBaker
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 2,506
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Heres some more Blue-Foot pics.
There are hundreds of them.
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
Loc: Registered: 6/04/02
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Re: Bluing Galerina ? [Re: vjp]
#11197345 - 10/06/09 10:26 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Here's the link. All of my photos were deleted after I learned that others could copy them without my permission. The only person I have given full permission to use my photos of this species was warriorsoul.
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
Loc: Registered: 6/04/02
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Re: Bluing Galerina ? [Re: HerbBaker]
#11197389 - 10/06/09 10:31 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I definitely recognize these. They look very similar to the ones I found. We learned at least two things:
1. This mushroom has a wider scope of morphology than previously thought. 2. This mushroom can grow in mulch.
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HerbBaker
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 2,506
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
Loc: Registered: 6/04/02
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Re: Bluing Galerina ? [Re: HerbBaker]
#11210504 - 10/08/09 08:00 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Sweet. Your contributions to the macromorphology of this species is appreciated.
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Dishez
Swamp Crawler
Registered: 09/25/07
Posts: 390
Last seen: 5 years, 8 days
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I've found caerulipes that have the same morphological qualities as each of those on workmans page, all within a few hundred feet of one another. My impression is that humidity and temperature play a major role in the features of individual fruitings of this species. Its cool that there have been so many findings this year...id like to add to the list of things we've learned about them...it seems as though their growing season is wider than previously speculated...I've found even amounts of them from July until the last time i went to my spot, which was less than two weeks ago.
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whoever
Stranger
Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 413
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
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Quote:
Mr. Mushrooms said: Average temperatures for the area right now are in the low 40's at night to the mid 60's during the day. The last photo is interesting. The mulch appears to be pine added more than one year. The needles indicate it might have been White Pine, Pinus strobus, the largest tree in Eastern North America which sometimes reaches 230 ft. in height. The acorn is probably Black Oak, Quercus velutina. Also the other leaves are interesting. I take it this is a very beautiful area.
This probably isn't a residential area. It looks very "park-like." The chips were created with a commercial shredder, not the kind most people have at home.
Gotta say, that is some forensics.
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cactu
culture and magic
Registered: 03/06/06
Posts: 3,913
Loc: mexicoelcentrodelconocimi...
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nice find .
-------------------- cuando una rafaga del pensamiento nos pasa al lado se puede sentir que valio la pena haber vivido, y cuando ese pensamiento se convierte en sueño no paramos de soñar hasta realizarlo
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sporeRider
Proud sporeRider :)
Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 5,030
Loc: usa
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Re: Bluing Galerina ? [Re: cactu]
#11218148 - 10/09/09 10:28 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Gotta love these unique finds!! Thankx for all the input
-------------------- http://
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HerbBaker
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 2,506
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When i hit the BLAST Sequence it comes up with Stropharia rugosoannulata as a close match..hmm, that seems odd. Does anyone know how to decipher this stuff? Oddly enough, these blue-footers are growing in my wine-cap patch..
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,358
Last seen: 6 days, 16 hours
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Re: Bluing Galerina? Nope, Psilocybe caerulipes. [Re: HerbBaker]
#11265188 - 10/17/09 11:44 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Spores 1000x, 8.7 micron divisions
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
Loc: Registered: 6/04/02
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Re: Bluing Galerina? Nope, Psilocybe caerulipes. [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
#11282458 - 10/20/09 07:05 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yep, that'd be them.
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
Loc: Registered: 6/04/02
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Re: Bluing Galerina ? [Re: HerbBaker]
#11282471 - 10/20/09 07:10 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
warriorsoul said:
Oddly enough, these blue-footers are growing in my wine-cap patch..
I've come to believe wine caps are a weed mushroom if they get ahold of an area. Very aggressive, eats lots of substrate and produces few mushrooms. They can get gigantic though.
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
Loc: Registered: 6/04/02
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Re: Bluing Galerina ? [Re: HerbBaker]
#11298954 - 10/22/09 11:32 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
warriorsoul said: When i hit the BLAST Sequence it comes up with Stropharia rugosoannulata as a close match..hmm, that seems odd. Does anyone know how to decipher this stuff?
How to use BLAST to compare mushroom DNA
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,358
Last seen: 6 days, 16 hours
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Re: Bluing Galerina ? [Re: HerbBaker]
#11299165 - 10/22/09 12:19 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
When i hit the BLAST Sequence it comes up with Stropharia rugosoannulata as a close match..hmm, that seems odd. Does anyone know how to decipher this stuff?
That is exactly what it shows. Makes me question the P. caerulipes sample they had, its likely that a small Stropharia was deposited in the herbarium as P. caerulipes.
None of the other Psilocybes that I have run through blast showed that all the close matches were in another genus.
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