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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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WHY has life evolved?
    #1117263 - 12/06/02 01:11 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

We have already discussed whether the theory of evolution is true or not.  I know there are still a few silly people out there who refuse to accept the obvious, but this question is for the evolutionists out there.

We believe life started as a microscopic, single-celled organism somewhere out in the vastness of the ocean during an inconceivably long time ago. 

But why did life not stop there?

What encouraged it to develop further into increasingly more complex organisms and life-forms?  Why did life evolve to come onto land?  Why did life evolve into plants and animals?  Why did life bother to evolve into humans, whose big brains are a threat to all other life on this planet?

Essentially, as the subject says, why has life evolved? 

Have fun! :smile:

-RebelSteve 


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Namaste.

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Anonymous

Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1117276 - 12/06/02 01:13 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1117497 - 12/06/02 02:06 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Because it was bored?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1117532 - 12/06/02 02:12 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

"to thicken the plot"


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1117538 - 12/06/02 02:13 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Now, I really don't want to insult you, but this is exactly what I was talking about a few threads back when I was saying that some people who "believe" in the theory of evolution don't even really understand it and know what it means.

Evolution is not about things improving, or increasing in size. It's about random changes, and survival. DNA is delicate, when it's being replicated, there are bound to be flaws, it will change from the original with each copy. This is mutation. When one of these random mutations actually improves the organisms ability to survive, then it thrives, expands, and spreads itself. Billions upon billions of mutations eventually lead to multi-celled organisms... then digestive systems, and muscles, and limbs, eyes, ears.... and so on.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: gnrm23]
    #1117550 - 12/06/02 02:16 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

I hate essay questions, would have been easier if RebelSteve gave us multiple choice.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineRemy
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1117726 - 12/06/02 03:16 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:


We have already discussed whether the theory of evolution is true or not. I know there are still a few silly people out there who refuse to accept the obvious




The Theory of Evolution is quite flawed. It states that species evolved by random, individual mutations. That is ridiculous. If mutations where random, than how do you explain something like a stickbug, or butterfly with patterns that are meant to look like eyes to the predator. What about symbiosis? Giraffes did not randomly grow a long neck, and then discover they could eat the trees. It grew a long neck so it could eat from the trees.

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OfflineDogomush
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Remy]
    #1117784 - 12/06/02 03:37 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

You should thank me for not being as condescending as I could be. Your questions are very simple to answer. You should try to understand the theory before you decide not to believe it, smart guy.

The Theory of Evolution is quite flawed. It states that species evolved by random, individual mutations. That is ridiculous. If mutations where random, than how do you explain something like a stickbug, or butterfly with patterns that are meant to look like eyes to the predator.

Stickbugs exist because they look like sticks. The precursors to stick bugs mutated randomly over thousands of years to look like tons of different things. There was probably a flashing beacon bug, a bug shaped like a lighthouse (with light), a hamburger-shaped bug, a bright red bug in a green field, a bug who stank in just the right way that a lizard could smell it from a mile away, but SURPRISE they all got eaten and failed to stabilize into a species. Of course, the bug who was shaped and coloured like a stick blended in with its surroundings: sticks! Thus, predators were unable to find them to eat and so the bug shaped like a stick mated with another of its species who DIDn't look like a stick, their babies sorta looked like sticks, and so on and so on until all the insects shaped anything like a stick survived and all the other ones got eaten.

As for butterflies, there once was a butterfly with plain red wings who gave birth to a mutated litter of caterpillars who, when in butterfly form, produced wings with the words "EAT ME" whoops unlucky mutation they all died, but the camouflage butterflies survived. There ya go.

Oh, and girrafes? Well, once upon a time there was a short little pig-like antelope. It ate shrubs. Then one day a plague killed all the shrubs, or maybe another shrub-eating animal moved in and ate all the shrubs. Most of the pig antelopes died, but a few were a little taller so they could eat at young trees. Then a young-tree eater moved in and ate all the young trees. Almost all the slightly taller pig antelopes died, except a few were tall enough to eat the foliage from slightly larger trees, and the the slightly larger tree-eaters moved in.... See where I'm going?

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OfflineDogomush
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1117793 - 12/06/02 03:42 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Hey has anybody heard about how there's a gene we have who's purpose is to create mutations? I haven't come across this before, I've only heard someone say it.

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Invisible1stimer
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Remy]
    #1117896 - 12/06/02 04:08 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

evolution isnt a theory its a fact. how it happened is a theory.


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.

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OfflineRemy
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: 1stimer]
    #1117926 - 12/06/02 04:16 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Few thing are facts, but there are many things that we can logically say are true (although all or many of them may not be). The "laws" that govern matter where also "facts", but they were proven to be untrue. Evolution as a word is a fact, but Evolution in the sense of species evolving from random mutations is quite likely a crock of shit.

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Anonymous

Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Remy]
    #1117953 - 12/06/02 04:29 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)


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OfflineRemy
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1117965 - 12/06/02 04:35 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

Stickbugs exist because they look like sticks. The precursors to stick bugs mutated randomly over thousands of years to look like tons of different things. There was probably a flashing beacon bug, a bug shaped like a lighthouse (with light), a hamburger-shaped bug, a bright red bug in a green field, a bug who stank in just the right way that a lizard could smell it from a mile away, but SURPRISE they all got eaten and failed to stabilize into a species. Of course, the bug who was shaped and coloured like a stick blended in with its surroundings: sticks! Thus, predators were unable to find them to eat and so the bug shaped like a stick mated with another of its species who DIDn't look like a stick, their babies sorta looked like sticks, and so on and so on until all the insects shaped anything like a stick survived and all the other ones got eaten.




That ridiculous. You have a terrible misunderstanding of mutations, and how they are stated in the theory of evolution. First of all, there is not just one species of bugs. A bug could that looks like a stick could not be born from a bug that belonged to a species of bugs that didn't resemble sticks. Mutations don't occur that quickly. If one bug resembles a stick, then all other in its species will resemble sticks. Although the evolution is theoretically possible, it is highly, highly unlikely. The Theory of Evolution leaves out the idea that organisms can have a subconcious interaction with there enviroment. I believe that the stickbug evolved to look like a stick, because its enviroment was filled with sticks. How does a stickbug know to act like a stick, it obviously cannot see itself, or know that it looks just like a stick, yet stickbugs will consistantly imitate a twig.

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OfflineRemy
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: ]
    #1117977 - 12/06/02 04:39 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

Read this, it'll make evolution alot more sensible.




I am not debating the exsistence of evolution, or the fact that one species developed from another. I am debating the theoretical mechanics of evolution, and the Evolutionist view, as well as the origin of life. I simply saying that life and evolution where not random occurances.

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OfflineMurex
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Remy]
    #1118257 - 12/06/02 06:22 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

evolution isnt a theory its a fact. how it happened is a theory.

This is true.

I do agree with Remy thow, it seems a stick bug wouldn't just randomly evolve into a stick.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1118376 - 12/06/02 07:19 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

I agree with most everyone on this thread that evolution occurs and that only "silly" people would dispute the evidence.  :wink:  But I do question if evolution is a result of random mutation alone.  Does the body have the ability to adapt to its surroundings without random mutation?

For example, if we participate in athletics, our body adjusts and becomes stronger.  If we spend a lot of time in the sun, our body adjusts and becomes tanner.  If we come across a new disease, our body remembers it and we become immune to a 2nd occurence.  If we practice holding our breath, our body adjusts and we can do it longer the next time, etc. etc. etc...

Why doesn't the body simply make ALL of us strong, tan, etc. right from the start?  Why does it only adjust in response to our environment?  Is the body capable of adjusting to new experiences that it has never been exposed to before?  What if a group of people decided to spend 8 hours a day swimming, would their bodies somehow change to make swimming easier for them?  If their offspring were to swim 8 hours per day, and then their offspring too, would they all eventually start to grow webbed hands and feet?  Or would that come from random mutation alone?

I don't know the answer, but it seems to me that the body DOES have the ability to adjust to its surroundings.  In the giraffe example, I believe that if a giraffe continually stretched it's neck out to reach for food, its body WOULD adjust by giving it a slightly longer neck.  Maybe the difference would hardly be noticeable in one generation, but over the course of many generations as giraffes kept stretching their necks out for food, their necks would continue to grow.  Not just for the mutated giraffes, but for MOST giraffes.

What do you think?  Is evolution completely random, or might creatures have evolved to a point where their body is actually capable of adjusting/evolving to their surroundings?       


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Invisible1stimer
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1118387 - 12/06/02 07:28 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

evolution is an example of order in chaos. its as simple as that.


--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.

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Anonymous

Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1118390 - 12/06/02 07:32 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

I dont think that applies to stick bugs.. you cant really make yourself look like a stick.

Evolution occurs very very very slowly. A bug would live on a tree. If it had offspring who did not blend into the tree, they would die. The offspring who blended in better, (ie those who were longer..) would live more, passing that trait on. Eventually the bugs that kept getting longer would be the ones survining, thus leaving us with present day stick bugs. Make sense?

I say life exists because it CAN exist. If the potential is there, it will eventually be realized. I think.

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Offlinefalcon
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Remy]
    #1118407 - 12/06/02 07:43 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Remy, are you a Lamarkian:do you believe parents can pass acquired characteristics to they're offspring? It's a tempting idea, and it explains evolution, but does't explain how the DNA gets shuffled. In fact its so tempting if I could chose one, that would be it: mind and matter, teamwork. As for as I know though, noones shown how something like that would work.

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: ]
    #1118422 - 12/06/02 07:51 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

I certainly agree that many evolutionary changes are completely random. But are ALL changes completely random? Is it possible that the giraffes that stretch their necks to reach the higher branches will grow longer necks as a result of their stretching?

Is it possible that stick bugs may have evolved as a result of actually trying to hide themselves behind a stick. Most animals have an instinct to hide from predators (which may have come from a purely random mutation that helped animals with this mutation to survive). So if a bug hides behind a stick enough, maybe it's body will evolve to help it do that better, just as the body evolves in the other examples I gave. Maybe bugs that hide behind a stick enough will actually move their body in such a way that it will eventually take a stick shape over the course of many. many generations? Isn't this a possibility?


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: falcon]
    #1118429 - 12/06/02 07:54 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

There you go.  I never heard of Lamarckism before, but I guess that's basically what I was arguing.  :grin: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1118459 - 12/06/02 08:08 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Regarding the swimming people changing, yes they do change. A swimmer has develops strong lats and shoulders for example, a speed skater has massive powerful legs. If these new traits made it easier for them to mate then "over time" the offspring who more inclined to get big lats and strong shoulders if they were gonna be able to mate. Because the ones who were born who could not get these traits would not mate they would not be passing on that weaker gene. Of course these factors don't really play a part in human evolution so this scenario isn't likey.
I think impatience is a big factor here for people who don't get it :smirk:


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"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.

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OfflineAmber_Glow
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Remy]
    #1118656 - 12/06/02 09:50 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Understand how evolution works yet Remy?

Another example: The brown cats of snowy alaska live in an area full of predators, and often they are eaten as young kittens. In one litter, one kitten is born with a mutation that makes his fur white. When predators come along, they are more likely to eat his brown brothers and sisters, but lil whitey will blend in with the snow and not get eaten. He will grow up to be a big strong kitty and have little kittens of his own, and maybe a few of them will come out with the white fur gene. This is natural selection.

This is how evolution works.

As far as the giraffe's neck getting longer cuz he stretches it a lot, that doesn't make sense to me. Weight lifters aren't born with stronger kids, and a contortionist isn't going to give birth to a more flexible child.

What I don't understand now is how it is that we are evolving now. If natural selection is no longer occuring, has evolution stopped? I'm not clear on the current state of human evolution. Can someone explain it to me?

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Anonymous

Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1118939 - 12/06/02 11:23 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

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OfflineViveka
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1119253 - 12/07/02 01:45 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

"What if a group of people decided to spend 8 hours a day swimming, would their bodies somehow change to make swimming easier for them? If their offspring were to swim 8 hours per day, and then their offspring too, would they all eventually start to grow webbed hands and feet?"

No, but the mutant born children of those swimming fanatics, the ones that randomly developed webbed feet, hands, and a dorsal fin, would breed and use their new advantage to dominate the pool!!

LIFEGUARD!!!

(begin surf music now)

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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #1119326 - 12/07/02 02:52 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

You are very right, and falcon asked a good question of Remy. It sounds like he does belive in Lamarckism, which he shouldn't.

Lamarck was the one of the first to come up with any sort of evolutionary theory. It was called the Theory of Acquired Characteristics. It said basically what many people have said in this thread, which makes me think that not many here understand evolution.

It said that giraffes got long necks because certain giraffes stretched their necks really far and then their offspring had longer necks, and they stretched them even further, and their offspring continued to have longer necks until they could eat the leaves from trees.

If you believe this theory is true, that would mean you believe a person who has lost their arm will give birth to a child who doesn't have an arm as well. We all know this is not true, and thus Lamarckism is not how evolution actually occurs.

Whoever explained natural selection using the example of the dark vs. white babies was very correct. That is how evolution occurs. Lamarck was not right in his theory, but he played a very important role in leading people to think about evolution, and thus leading to Darwin's theories.

So far, nobody has answered the question to my satisfaction. Perhaps I will take Swami's advice and make this question multiple choice. Let's see...

Did evolution occur because:

1. Some sort of diety is controlling it all... First it created life. Then it decided to make life better. It kept making increasingly more complex organisms, realizing its mistakes and fixing them, until it came up with the ultimate life-forms.

2. "Life," whatever it is, has a mind of it's own. The first microscopic, multicellular organism subconsciously realized that it wanted to become bigger and better. And so it subconciously developed into algae and sponges and insects, which developed into jellyfish and plants, which developed into fish, which developed into amphibians, which developed into reptiles, which developed into mammals, which developed into birds (yes birds came after mammals), and it was all due to the subconscious desires of "life."

3. Shit, I dont know!

4. Umm, it was the aliens.

5. Jigga what?

6. Cowboys are so sexy. They are the best product of evolution ever.


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Namaste.

Edited by RebelSteve33 (12/07/02 02:52 AM)

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OfflineRemy
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1119683 - 12/07/02 10:37 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Rebelsteve, you have a very limited view of "time" and a very one sided view (you are stating unproven theories as if they where facts). I am not saying evolution occured in a few generations, im talking about it slowly occuring over countless generations. All Im saying is that it is highly likely that evolution isn't random and their is conscious force acting upon it.

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OfflineDogomush
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Remy]
    #1119847 - 12/07/02 12:37 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

You have a terrible misunderstanding of mutations, and how they are stated in the theory of evolution. First of all, there is not just one species of bugs. A bug could that looks like a stick could not be born from a bug that belonged to a species of bugs that didn't resemble sticks. Mutations don't occur that quickly.

Yeah, brilliant observations but I wasn't explaining exactly how evolution works, I was getting across the elementary principle that stick bugs didn't push towards looking like sticks but ended up looking like sticks because any bugs who didn't died. It's good to know that "mutations don't occur that quickly" 'cause here I was thinking that the first human was birthed by a gorrilla.

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OfflineDogomush
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Remy]
    #1119862 - 12/07/02 12:46 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

All Im saying is that it is highly likely that evolution isn't random and their is conscious force acting upon it.

Why? I don't see why. How do I know what's good for me as a species? How can I conciously decide the adaptations I recquire when there are so many variables in nature? I could see a lot of grass in a field and conciously evolve to be able to eat that grass and then I find out that a special kind of poisonous snake hides in it and kills anything that touches the grass. Whoops. Or are you talking about a kind of a God directing it all? Why would a God conciousness bother? He certainly hasn't changed life in any way since it began. Sure there's a lot of variety out there, and more complex organisms, but all we do is eat, shit, and fuck, really. Give me a reason why random mutations are highly unlikely.

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Remy]
    #1119879 - 12/07/02 12:53 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Conscious force? Where'd that come from?

It's not totally random, or even random at all. It follows all the same laws of physics that everything else follows, meaning that it manifests itself in extremely intricate factal patterns.



--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1119956 - 12/07/02 01:40 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Life evolves because the cosmos evolve, and life was born from the cosmos


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
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OfflineDogomush
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1120163 - 12/07/02 03:41 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

I would go with your number 2 it's the closest, but it's not quite it either.

2. "Life," whatever it is, has a mind of it's own. The first microscopic, multicellular organism subconsciously realized that it wanted to become bigger and better. The first organisms were single-celled at least, and it didn't decide in any way that it wanted to become bigger and better. And so it subconciously developed into algae and sponges and insects, which developed into jellyfish and plants, which developed into fish, which developed into amphibians, which developed into reptiles, which developed into mammals, which developed into birds (yes birds came after mammals), and it was all due to the subconscious desires of "life."

I would say don't think of life as "alive." Think of it as an object that makes copies of itself. It's not that it has any desire to replicate itself, it just does. When a single-celled organism flourishes and fills the sea, it does so because its atributes cause it to be unable to do anything else. Even humans don't truly desire to have sex and populate the planet. The reason we have sex drive is because animals without sex drive didn't populate the planet, cause they never had sex.

I guess molecules just have to produce life. That's part of what they do. Their qualities cause them to clump together and replicate themselves. Einstein said "God does not play dice." This can be applied to lots of things but one of them is life. The universe didn't happen to create life, it couldn't help but create it, and we can't help but create more of ourselves whether we want to or not.


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Anonymous

Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: ]
    #1120415 - 12/07/02 06:43 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1120768 - 12/07/02 09:51 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

The reason why life has evolved is because the conditions (temperature) on earth favor a wide array of chemical reactions. Any hotter and everything would break down, any colder and everything would be unreactive. There needs to be enough chemical variety in the "primordial soup" for natural selection to occur (there has to be something to "select" from). Life is a natural chemical byproduct resulting from the cooling down of an earth-type planet.

Remy, i refer you to an interesting case study done on moths. A certain type of light colored moth thrived until its habitat was industrialized. Instead of dying off the population shifted to dark colored moths because they blended in better with the soot on the trees. This is just an example of color but it can apply to many genetically related things. There is also convergent evolution such as flippers on whales (mammals) and fish, two very unrelated organisms.

We can literally watch evolution occur in populations of bacteria because they reproduce so quickley. Why do you think there are elevated levels of drug-resistant bacteria in hospitals? Because they evolve from antibiotic use.


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:egyptian:

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1120789 - 12/07/02 09:59 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Their qualities cause them to clump together ...

Like shroomerites, we have no choice.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineZahid
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Catalysis]
    #1120865 - 12/07/02 10:36 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

The theory of Evolution was the only way to counter the religious belief of creationism. It's a nice theory, but I think it was a severe perversion of adaptation.


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OfflineMurex
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: ]
    #1120917 - 12/07/02 11:13 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Because it is a natural function in order for living things to adapt to their envronments in order to stay alive.

It wasn't that hard of a question.  :smirk:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1120972 - 12/07/02 11:44 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

If you believe this theory is true, that would mean you believe a person who has lost their arm will give birth to a child who doesn't have an arm as well.




No that doesn't mean that's what I would believe. First of all, evolution is a very slow process. I wouldn't expect to see someone evolve without an arm in only one generation. Secondly, I don't think the body would ever evolve to lose an arm. Instead I think it would gain the ability to grow it back over time. Finally, loss of an arm isn't something that the body works to achieve. If a person attempted to shed an arm on his own, then maybe over the course of hundreds of generations, he would come closer and closer to achieving that goal. I don't know that Lamarckism is correct, its just something that makes a lot of sense to me.

In reply to:

We all know this is not true, and thus Lamarckism is not how evolution actually occurs.




No I don't know that Lamarckism is not true. In fact, I just found out that the scientific community is against you. Take a look at this article:

http://www.sqwark.com/Epigenetics.htm

A quote from the article says "Resisted at first, these Lamarckian findings in bacteria are now reluctantly accepted by the biological community."

The word "reluctantly" was used, because Lamarckism has been doubted by the scientific community for quite some time.

I realize that just because I found this on a webpage doesn't make it gospel, but there's little reason I can see for the author of that website to lie in his post.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

Edited by GoBlue! (12/08/02 12:05 AM)

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Anonymous

Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Murex]
    #1121657 - 12/08/02 05:51 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

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Offlinefalcon
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: ]
    #1121745 - 12/08/02 08:45 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Mr. Mushrooms, there seems to be evidence of it everywhere in the mammalian species. Make canines the example. In dogs, Canis familiaris, there are great variation in the characteristics of breeds which are caused by selective mating by humans. This selective breeding can be considered an enviromental factor.
Wolves, Canis lupus, can interbreed with Canis familiaris and coyotes, Canis latrans.
Mutts, not just acouple of crossing between several breeds tend to be small pointed nosed critters with short hair.
Genetically dogs are very similar to wolves, yet they look different . To me this seems to be a case of enviromental clinal variation.
Wolves and coyotes are easy to distinguish genetically yet they can interbreed. This would seem to be clinal variation caused by mutation.
The last question I don't know. I don't understand the diffeerences between them.
Rebel Steve, I don't know, however 1 and 2 are not mutually exclusive. If a deity created life it could have put that desire to change into it, or there is no way to create life without it being effected by its enviroment or the deity is life and so is present in all life.

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Anonymous

Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: falcon]
    #1121754 - 12/08/02 08:58 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

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Anonymous

Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: ]
    #1121755 - 12/08/02 09:00 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Of course it is.. life forms arent robots, after all. Some would argue that, but I think its fairly obvious that throwing free will/desire to survive into the mix really fucks things up.

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OfflineRemy
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Phluck]
    #1121841 - 12/08/02 10:34 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

It's not totally random, or even random at all. It follows all the same laws of physics that everything else follows, meaning that it manifests itself in extremely intricate factal patterns.




Exactly which laws are you refering to?

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: ]
    #1121901 - 12/08/02 11:11 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

...that, and invisible bitches is sexy!


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Murex]
    #1122281 - 12/08/02 02:42 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

yeah Murex - the environment/surroundings evolve, so the beings must as well


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1122368 - 12/08/02 03:35 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

the environment/surroundings evolve, so the beings must as well




Actually, I think this is the answer!  Evolution occurs because plants and animals have to constantly adapt themselves to changing environmental stresses.  Perhaps the composition of ocean water changed sometime after the development of the first, simplest life-form, and that life-form had to evolve its form and the way it functioned in order to survive.  Continual changing conditions led to continual changing life-forms, until fish evolved, and then amphibians, and so on. 

You guys are so smart!  What would I do without Shroomerites to help answer questions that boggle my brain like this? :smile:

-RebelSteve 


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Namaste.

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1122782 - 12/08/02 07:42 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Well here on earth its the atmosphere and tectonic movement that keeps changing shit around (aside from modern humans)....

Some changes would simply kill everything off if evolution didn't exist.


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
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OfflineMurex
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1123333 - 12/08/02 10:17 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Well.......DUH!  :tongue:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Invisiblebert
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1123724 - 12/09/02 12:57 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

OK, I'm new here. But I'm gonna field this one. It all has to do with Emergence Theory.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: ]
    #1323514 - 02/20/03 10:17 PM (21 years, 13 days ago)

new species of plant came into existence about 30 years ago:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-584528,00.html


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Remy]
    #1323534 - 02/20/03 10:48 PM (21 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

The Theory of Evolution is quite flawed. It states that species evolved by random, individual mutations. That is ridiculous.




The fact that species can evolve by random, individual mutations was proved by creating artifical life using this theory. I will continue to beleive in evolution until somebody else creates life using a different theory.

Here is a link about it:
Genetic Algorithms and Artificial Life resources

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OfflineScarfmeister
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: zeronio]
    #1323692 - 02/21/03 02:14 AM (21 years, 12 days ago)

I'm trying my best to stay out of this topic but i just cant help myself.
Seriously what the fuck are you guys talking about? Its painfully obvious that none of you actually understands the basics of chemistry and biology. Anyone can glean a fair understanding of the theory of evolution by reading some science report of off the internet and then spew out meaningless science rhetoric in an attempt to look smart but it doesn't give your poorly stated assumptions any more credit.

I just wish people could discuss topics like this in a manner that they them-self actually understand.





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We're the lowest of the low, the scum of the fucking earth!

Edited by Shroomnoob (02/21/03 03:52 AM)

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Scarfmeister]
    #1324012 - 02/21/03 05:15 AM (21 years, 12 days ago)

Shroomnoob-

Evolution is constantly being brought up around here... and I have to keep telling people to take a class on it. Just one textbook could clear things up. You can't properly argue for or against evolution in a forum...


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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OfflineViking
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Scarfmeister]
    #1324037 - 02/21/03 05:29 AM (21 years, 12 days ago)


Exactly what is it that you think we don't understand Shroomnoob? Some of the people on this thread are obviously misinformed, but some are making decent arguments.

However, no one has answered the original question...*WHY* does evolution occur? We know it does, and we know the mechanisms it uses...but why is there a constant need to propogate and reproduce? Darwin couldn't answer it, and I have yet to hear anyone else come up with a decent theory.

Viking

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Offlinecybrbeast
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1324049 - 02/21/03 05:43 AM (21 years, 12 days ago)

Sexual Selection and Natural Selection....


:grin:


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futuretribe.space

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Offlinecybrbeast
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Viking]
    #1324054 - 02/21/03 05:45 AM (21 years, 12 days ago)

"but why is there a constant need to propogate and reproduce? Darwin couldn't answer it, and I have yet to hear anyone else come up with a decent theory."

There is no need for anything. There is no need for propagation and reproduction. But lifeforms do it because the lifeforms that don't do it die off. So there will only be lifeforms that propagate and reproduce...


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futuretribe.space

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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1324073 - 02/21/03 05:55 AM (21 years, 12 days ago)

Phluck I think thats the same thing in life, if we were to be completely devistated that one thing went wrong we would get no where. Our mind and bodies have to control this process, and when something out of the ordinary does happen we either are obliterated or go into a downward spiral or we transcend through and gain knowledge of our experience and spread and grow like Phluck says. but not to say that if one were to eternally question the validity of learning your life would be completely meaningless anyway. but then that brings you back to the post about the pain formula and thoughts create reality. i think this forum just gets too lost in definitions and start looking at all these reflections and we all get lost. well i dont know if this has anything to do with what anyone wanted to hear, but this is my take from the discussion with some of my own understanding of how "it" works.


if you want to look at the physical principles of evolution i  think this might be better understood/ more easily accepted if you apply to much broader principles. why do planets "evolve"? galaxies? why do the particles come together? if physics can explain how these particles come together, then couldnt it explain the physical process of human evolution? i dont know too much where this forum is going. i just think evoultion happens cause evolution happens, its just how things work. i mean you think that in any given day how much do you learn? are you evolving then as you learn? do you learn to adapt? to exist? maybe you can find you answer in asking yourself does life "evolves" cause it has to or naturally it would just die? i dont think you will ever get to truth by making assertions.

heh heh... i dont know if other people have said this before but i thought of this when i was on shrooms and it brought me to a great realization. i think some guy in waking life also said the same thing. answers are only found in asking yourself other questions and the answers to those are but within other questions and so on and so on, as the quest for truth is an eternal lesson.
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In reply to Mr. Mushrooms : I think thats a great key, i mean we are what... only 2 percent genetic variance from monkeys? we are simply all the same organism, we all run off of DNA, that is every single organisms back bone. chemicals are not prejudice. DNA is just likie clay, whatever comes in contact with it, it mocks a form. We are all essentially life, weve just had a different start. it brings you to question... why are humans so advanced now, maybe they are the oldest, maybe they are not from earth originally. then theres the question, if there is other life out in the universe does it also operate by DNA, if they didnt would we still call it a living creature? maybe we are all just like pieces of clay, and whatever our creators (anything from environment, to the most unknown (like aliens) ) and when we get played with we change shape. and thus evolution?
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one last thing, if you havent seen Waking Life i would realllly reccomend it, lots of great minds in that movie :wink:


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What?

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Invisibledjfrog
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1324085 - 02/21/03 06:05 AM (21 years, 12 days ago)

Evolution permits and understanding of the origin of life without any external "why" needed. You question presumes an answer.

Some people say "I don't believe in evolution because I cannot comprehend how complexity could arrise by accident". Some people say "I don't believe in creation because I cannot comprehend in the existence of a creator god". Both may be wrong.

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Viking]
    #1324320 - 02/21/03 07:43 AM (21 years, 12 days ago)

Because it can.


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Offlinejohnnyfive
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1324624 - 02/21/03 10:08 AM (21 years, 12 days ago)

Dna is the software program for the hardware of the physical living. Evolution could be the solution to a enviromental problem.


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OfflineDogomush
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: johnnyfive]
    #1324724 - 02/21/03 11:00 AM (21 years, 12 days ago)

Hhahahahah I love it

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1324727 - 02/21/03 11:01 AM (21 years, 12 days ago)

Baby_Hitler: Because it can.

Yup.

If something can persist, it will.


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OfflineMushyMay
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: johnnyfive]
    #1325142 - 02/21/03 03:20 PM (21 years, 12 days ago)

Nice one, I'd agree that the DNA is the software and the organism the hardware. The purpose of life being to replicate the sofware or "information." As with any copying process however, deviations will occur.

On evolution theory: Random, small, advantages mutations don't really work without some type of planning ahead in the process. Take a hummingbird, for example. They are tiny birds that hover and collect food with a long beak and long tongue. If it evolved the ability to hover without the long beak and tongue, it couldn't eat. Likewise, if it developed the beak and tongue, but couldn't hover, it would not be able to get nectar from flowers. This is not to deny the fact that some animals have evolved through minor advantagous mutations, it just means that this idea doesn't hold on 100% of cases. It's a flaw in evolution theory (which is NOT fact, it is theory.) There isn't even any evidence to show where feathers came from in the first place. Simply speculation that they "evolved" from scales.

My opinion on the original post is that life has evolved so that the universe can experience itself. Self-awareness. If we are the universe, and we are self-aware then we are an example of how the universe has evolved self-awareness. Most animals are not self-conscious. Get a cat in front of a mirror, it thinks its looking at another cat. Some monkeys have shown that they can recognise themselves in front of mirrors but other than that we humans are unique in that way (or so we think.) I think that we have evolved to where we are now so that WE can look out at the universe and go "man, look at all this amazing shit. How cool is this place!" (I know thats a bit cosmic but hey, that's where I'm up to so far.)

On people talking about shit like this when we don't really know what we are talking about: Lighten up! This is only an internet forum. The fact that we are open to talk about stuff like this and ask questions just means that we are interested in getting to the truth. Nobody knows all the answers. If you think your opinion will be duly noted, and appropriately disregarded.


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MushyMay is a fictional character, as a result any information provided by MushyMay is also fictitious.

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: MushyMay]
    #1325151 - 02/21/03 03:30 PM (21 years, 12 days ago)

How do you know what the cat is thinking, and how does knowledge of what mirrors are = "self-awareness"?


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OfflineMushyMay
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1325161 - 02/21/03 03:54 PM (21 years, 12 days ago)

Have you ever seen a cat look in the mirror. Obviously I don't know exactly what the cat is thinking but I can gauge from it's reaction and interpret it. My experience is that it treats it's own reflection as if it were another cat. When I do something I know that "I" am doing it. When a lesser evolved animal (eg a cat) does something it is usually instinctual due to a less evolved brain. You know, reptilian brain, mammailian brain etc. While I'm talking of brains, has anyone seen the similarity between the brain of a human and that of a dolphin? Scary. http://www.thedolphinplanet.org/genintel.htm


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1325206 - 02/21/03 04:15 PM (21 years, 12 days ago)

evolution seems to be the more "novel" thing to do, for those into novelty theory :-D


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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: MushyMay]
    #1325251 - 02/21/03 04:39 PM (21 years, 12 days ago)

I still don't see how that illustrates lack of self-awareness.

I've never personally done the cat / mirror experiment. I don't have a cat. I have two dogs. Does it work with dogs? I used to have a parakeet, and a cockatiel(sp). The parakeet was all kissy kissy with it, and the cockatiel was just afraid of it.

Thing is the parakiet the parakeet was kissy kissy with innanimate objects too, and the cockatiel was afraid of everything.

If you got an email from someone claiming to be you from 3 years in the future (and it really was), and you thought it was another person, would that prove anything other than your lack of knowledge of time travel?

I think if the experiment goes on long enough, they eventually accept it as an inanimate object.

Though I did know of a dog that would bark at his own echo every freakin' night.  :grin:


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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1325255 - 02/21/03 04:41 PM (21 years, 12 days ago)

IDK, the "big invisible old man in the sky" theory is rather quaint.


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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: MushyMay]
    #1325500 - 02/21/03 07:45 PM (21 years, 12 days ago)

On evolution theory: Random, small, advantages mutations don't really work without some type of planning ahead in the process. Take a hummingbird, for example. They are tiny birds that hover and collect food with a long beak and long tongue. If it evolved the ability to hover without the long beak and tongue, it couldn't eat. Likewise, if it developed the beak and tongue, but couldn't hover, it would not be able to get nectar from flowers.

Ummmmmm that's like saying that evolution isn't possible because it's impossible to evolve feet at the same time as Iegs. But yeah, you should just read a paragraph I don't care to write about evolution and I think you'd understand it.

Something I thought of: We share 98% of the same DNA as chimps and gorrillas right? And we share 40% (FORTY PERCENT) of the same DNA as bacteria. This means that HUGE evolutionary leaps are actually very small, correct? DNA seems to be pretty powerful. All you need to do is alter 2% of the code and you make a leap from termite-eating dumbass chimp to dumbass humans. I wonder how much change it would be to turn chickadee wings into hummingbird wings? Pretty tiny I imagine.

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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1325560 - 02/21/03 08:46 PM (21 years, 12 days ago)

I'm not trying to say that evolution is not possible, I was just trying to point out that it doesn't always add up. I don't know of any animals that have evolved feet without evolving legs.

DNA is an interesting thing. Did you know that frogs have longer DNA sequence than human beings?


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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1325575 - 02/21/03 08:59 PM (21 years, 12 days ago)

Chaos theory.

Out of disorder comes order  :wink:

DNA is a very complex system...


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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: trendal]
    #1326032 - 02/22/03 06:07 AM (21 years, 11 days ago)

is there really any DISorder though?


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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1326291 - 02/22/03 09:15 AM (21 years, 11 days ago)

Yes.


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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: trendal]
    #1326501 - 02/22/03 11:16 AM (21 years, 11 days ago)

Yeah, I read in one of those blasted hippy drug books that 90% of DNA is "waste DNA." Just tons of code that doesn't seem to have anything to do with anything else, although DNA is arranged similarly to a crystal, so it resonates at a consistent level, but that 90% of "waste" DNA could have effects in the body just not as the code that creates our cells and such. But really I don't know anything. I'm just some stupid hippy reading hippy drug books with stupid hippy drug-book theories in them.

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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1327070 - 02/22/03 05:18 PM (21 years, 11 days ago)

Dont you guys get it?? This is where God comes in! these are the examples of the "holes" in science...where the HIGHER level of science that we haven't quite reached yet...spirituality. And I'm not even talking about *religion*...FUCK THAT...I'm talking about PURE spirituality....and God. =) I dare somebody to PROVE me wrong!  :grin:


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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #1327136 - 02/22/03 06:01 PM (21 years, 11 days ago)

In science it falls on the person making the statment to provide the proof.

Making a statement, then asking someone to prove it wrong is silly. You can say "proove that god doesn't exist" to me, but there is no way I could ever proove that. I wouldn't be the one making the statement, so the burden of proof should not fall on me. It falls on the person making the statement.

:smirk:

It's the same tactic used by UFO nuts.


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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: trendal]
    #1327153 - 02/22/03 06:08 PM (21 years, 11 days ago)

Right, I'm well-aware of that, I just made that statement to show those who arent very quick thinkers that X cant prove Y is wrong and Y cant prove that X is wrong in this case....


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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: trendal]
    #1328492 - 02/23/03 09:34 AM (21 years, 10 days ago)

It is a fact though that UFOs exist :grin: 


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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1328512 - 02/23/03 09:43 AM (21 years, 10 days ago)

I read an explanation for that 90-99% waste DNA. In the DNA code itself there's also a war. A survival of the fittest. There are some parts in the DNA that mutated in such a way that they copy themselves and add extra copys of themselves in the DNA. These mutations have done this over a long period..
There were also some other reasons given, that I can't remember right now..


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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: cybrbeast]
    #1329265 - 02/23/03 03:53 PM (21 years, 10 days ago)


Much of the "garbage" DNA simply segregates the useful parts of DNA, and keeps DNA formations stable. There are tons of examples of this....eg: long chains of Adenine:Thymine and so called CG Islands (long sequences of Cytosine and Guanine).

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Re: WHY has life evolved? *DELETED* [Re: Viking]
    #1329741 - 02/23/03 07:15 PM (21 years, 10 days ago)

Post deleted by TheHateCamel

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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: TheHateCamel]
    #1329970 - 02/23/03 09:33 PM (21 years, 10 days ago)

If you want to learn something about the genome and evolution read this:
Genome: The Autobiography of a Species in 23 Chapters by Matt Ridley
It really is an amazing book. You don't have to be an expert to read it. It's a bit difficult now and then, but still very understandable popular science..

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060932902/qid=1046082675/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/002-5254842-8333665?v=glance&s=books 


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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1339862 - 02/27/03 07:23 AM (21 years, 6 days ago)

Alright... evolution... an extremely intriguing subjuct. I am a biologist. I have a bachelors of science in biology and I am curently working towards my masters in biology, studying macro-evolution. The real intresting thing about evolution that a lot of people don't know is evolution can be displayed and proven in equations, numbers and solutions. I'm not out to convince all the anti-evolitionists that evolution is real, all I am saying is numbers don't lie. Anyhow, to answer your question about why life didn't stop at a single cell organism is fairly simple. First off, to understand evolution you have to understand that nature isn't out to evolve. Evolutions isn't a goal or an outcome, it just happens. Genetic mutation is the driving force of evolution as we know it... as we venture back into time some 2 billion years ago and arive at your single cell organisms floating in the sea, we find that that organism is sucessfull in terms of it's reproductive fitness. An individual that is able to reproduce and have sucessfull offspring is considered to be fit... thus the term survivial of the fittest doesn't actually mean physically fit, it means reproductively fit. Anyhow, that single cell organism, had a genetic mutation in it's reproductive cycle about every one out of 10 million offspring. Considering that it was most likely asexual the rate of mutation was high. To make a long story short, eventually one mutation came a long that made the offspring more sucessfull for it's environment then it's parent and over sucessive generation eventually became the dominant species and out competed the original species utill the orginal species became extinct. Now these mutations continued untill some time down the line that one cell organism mutated into a 2 celled organism and was more sucsessfull then the one cell organism and so on and so forth.

Hope I cleared things up for you. I have a tnedency of rambling when I talk about evolution because it's really hard to know where to beging when you attempt to explain the concepts of evolution


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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: djd586]
    #1340306 - 02/27/03 09:41 AM (21 years, 6 days ago)

seems like chaos theory ties in nicely with evolution


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OfflineMushyMay
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: djd586]
    #1343277 - 02/28/03 02:39 PM (21 years, 5 days ago)

Great post :smile:

I've just got one question.
Quote:

eventually one mutation came a long that made the offspring more sucessfull for it's environment then it's parent and over sucessive generation eventually became the dominant species and out competed the original species utill the orginal species became extinct. Now these mutations continued untill some time down the line that one cell organism mutated into a 2 celled organism and was more sucsessfull then the one cell organism and so on and so forth.


This means that as an organism mutates and evolves it keeps making the older organism extinct, which would mean that you only ever have one organism that is more evolved than all of it's ancestors  There are millions of different organisms.  Could you elaborate on this?   


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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: MushyMay]
    #1343976 - 02/28/03 08:32 PM (21 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

This means that as an organism mutates and evolves it keeps making the older organism extinct, which would mean that you only ever have one organism that is more evolved than all of it's ancestors There are millions of different organisms. Could you elaborate on this?





The origional doesn't always die out. Some mutations will make the new organism more suitable to a different environment than the origional, and it will not have to compete with the other.


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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1345033 - 03/01/03 12:43 PM (21 years, 4 days ago)

WOW.....the misconceptions of evolution and genetic mutation in this discussion are staggering. First off, evolution is not a theory or a convenient counter to religious suppositions. I am a Christian and believe very much in God. However, this doesn't preclude me from believeing in evolution. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Evolution has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. The resistance comes from those that for some reason think that believing in it would go against their ideas of God. Recall for a moment......those pesky little astronomers that discovered earth isn't the center of the solar system. They were scorned, laughed at and ultimately beheaded by the church ran political system. At that time they thought it was so detremental to religion that the earth wasn't the center of the universe. Now we laugh at their ignorance and can't even comprehend why it was thought to be so contrary to religion. This, I believe, is where evolution is today. It "appears" to be so against our pillars of faith that we are too unobjective about the facts in front of our face. Anyway.....now to try and answer the question.

Life started as prokaryotic organisms (single cells). The commonly accepted "theory" is that one prokaryote somehow enveloped another then using that ingested cell for a much more specific function. Which we now see as organelles in cells. This gave rise to eukaryotes (multicellular organisms).

Someone had asked the question of genetic shuffling and mutation. I think it is important to define mutation as this will probably alleviate some of the confusion as to what is really going on. When most people hear the word mutation they think of some attrocious looking monster or the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Mutation in reality isn't that scary, quickly noticable and dramatically changing to physical characteristics. As some may already know, DNA is made up of four different base pairs abbreviated G,A,T,C. Every time DNA replicates itself to pass on to its daughter cells there is a chance that a mutation will occur; which simply means a different base will be inserted into the DNA. So instead of a G, maybe a C will be used.

DNA has many natural repair mechanisms that almost always detect and repair the wrong base pair. Sometimes however, one slips throught the cracks. This mutation usually isn't life threatening or even noticeable. Those G's and C's are what determines what kind of protein will be translated (made). So if there is a slight difference in the protein structure it's function will be affected. So if some protein (enzyme) is supposed to contribute to building up calcium in the bones but due to its mutation it is working overtime, maybe you get seriously thick bones. This mutation being completey random may be beneficial to the organism or might be a liability. It depends on the organisms habitat and survival habits. If the organism is known to get in territorial battles or swing from trees etc. then having stronger bones would help that organism survive a fall from the trees or a devestating blow from a rival. If however that organism is known to be aquatic or aerial then having stronger, heavier bones would slow it down, making it more vulnerable to predators. Now if this random mutation helps its survival, it's genes will remain in the gene pool much longer than its weaker counterparts. Now maybe this gene will get bread out or maybe it wont....that's the randomness of evolution. But if it stays in then the species is forever changed. You have to keep in mind that none of this will be noticable in anyones lifetime. It takes thousands of generations for there to be a noticable change.

Evolution can easily be proven by all the experiments done with fruit flies. Many generations can be born in front of an observer for which mutations can be easily seen. Evolution/mutation is also proven in humans by cancer. 99% of all cancers are from genetic mutation that cause abnormal cell growth. It so happens that cancer is a mutation that isn't beneficial to our survival. Its persistence in our gene pool is thanks to our life sustaining techniques by drugs and other therapies. Not to mention that abnormal cell growth mutations are virtually impossible to breed out even without drugs becasue anything can cause them like sun, smoking, etc.


Hope this clears things up. Peace




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OfflineMushyMay
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: chemkid]
    #1346710 - 03/02/03 10:48 AM (21 years, 3 days ago)

I don't mean to come across as doubting the evolution of organisms. That is not my intention or belief. I just want to learn about it from people who seem to think they know, and the best way is to ask questions. Here's another. So organisms evolve, that is well documented and I am fully aware of the experiments with the fruit flies. But, how did life evolve from non-life? That is the problem I have with evolution. I don't believe that evolution is an acceptable solution to the emrgence of life from a "primordial soup." Nor do I believe that God came over and just thought "hey I might create some life." So how did life just spontaneously appear from nowhere. You say your a Christian and believe in God and evolution. Then you must admit that belief in evolution does seem to exclude some of the "truth" in the bible. That must mean you are a Christian who doesn't believe in the bible (or at least not all of it.)


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Offlinechemkid
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: MushyMay]
    #1347216 - 03/02/03 03:03 PM (21 years, 3 days ago)

Actually, I believe in the Bible in its entirety. Evolution doesn't contradict the Bible's teachings. Since it is impossible to prove religious suppositions I will only discuss the scientific aspects.

It would take a lot to explain how life formed from non-life. I will try to summarize as much as possible while keeping a shred of understanding in it.

I'm sure we can agree that all life is comprised of cells (life as we know it anyway).
All cells are enclosed by a membrane, as are all organelles inside the cell. Really, the biggest obstacle to creating a cell that can sustain life is its formation.

The membrane is comprised of many individual molecules (phospholipids). These molecules are part hydrophobic, part hydrophilic. This means part of the molecule likes to be in water and part of it wants to do everything it can to get away from water (try to put water on wax, or mix water with oil. These substances are hydrophobic). An interesting phenomenon happens when you put a bunch of hydrophobic (water fearing) molecues together.....they tend to aggregate (come together). This is called the hydrophobic effect. The reason they aggregate is they are trying to put the parts that hate water in a clump to "shield" it from exposure to water. This leaves the water loving part exposed. Imagine these molecules kind of shaped like a sperm. The head part loves water while the tail hates water. If all the heads can come together in a huddle formation then only the tails are exposed. This aggregation is called a micelle. Unfortunately, this formation doesn't leave any room in the middle to contain organelles for life functions. There is another formation however that yields the needed cell structure. Imagine a line of these molecules. Now imagine another line in fornt of the first line (like a mirror image). Now you have a double layer of these molecules. All the tails tucked in between the two lines of heads away from water. You can make a hollow sphere of this double layer which can contain water and organelles.

The beautiful thing about these formations is that they happen spontaneously. No poking or prodding is necessary to get it to do this. Now that the cell structure is made...just add millions of years, a little random chance, and voila....you have the first cellular life form.

This summary is an extreme injustice to the complexity of everything but I hope it helps a little bit.

A thought to ponder on:

Why do some feel that by evolution existing.....God does not? Why couldn't God in his infinite wisdom have just let these things take their own course so that things would have a natural progression and would make sense to mankind. Anyway, so when mankind did finally evolve into homosapiens then souls could be bestowed upon them. A wonderful book you can read that kind of illistrates this point with many scientific facts backing up evolution, age of the earth and the authors belief in God is called "Finding Darwin's God".


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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: djd586]
    #1347323 - 03/02/03 03:49 PM (21 years, 3 days ago)

Thank god SOMEONE here understands evolution.

For the number of proponents of evolution here, few people seem to actually comprehend it.


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OfflineScarfmeister
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Phluck]
    #1347920 - 03/03/03 01:37 AM (21 years, 2 days ago)

Its really not that complicated. Life could have started in numerous places on the newborn earth, be it in the atmosphere, primordial goo or underwater hot-springs.

All the building blocks of life can be found almost everywhere in space. In the sun, in space and even on asteroids. I read somewhere that complete amino acids has been found on asteroids.
The human body is nothing more then a vessel for our DNA.



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OfflineMushyMay
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: chemkid]
    #1352314 - 03/05/03 10:04 AM (21 years, 13 hours ago)

Not being my area of study I have much to learn about evolution. I think anyone who thinks they know one truth above all others is just kidding themselves. I would never say that belief in evolution excludes God, but the bible is not God. I don't believe in the bible. I have read much of it over the years and for the most part it is a good read (to read it all in one go is a bit much though.) I've spoken to many people who dismiss parts of the bible with the old "oh, but that's just the old testament." IMO, the old Testament is in the bible, so you either believe in the whole bible or not. So here is my evolution/bible problem. Genesis(1:1) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. No problems there, plenty of room for evolution. But, Genesis (1:27) 27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Not much room for man to evolve here if we were created by God. (I'm not going to touch on the interesting quote of "Let us make man in our image", that is another topic altogether.) Admittedly, for the most part, Genesis allows for evolution totally (for anyone who disagrees with that I suggest you read it.)


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Offlineiconoclast
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: MushyMay]
    #1353225 - 03/05/03 05:35 PM (21 years, 6 hours ago)

hmmmmm...., it's like........  everyone wants to drive, and you have room to seat everybody , but nobody will get in , and so you never get there


I am just in awe to how youthful indoctrination can blind an observant man, how belief is transformed into truth, and what some will belive to be true, and most of all...  how deception can be self induced. :smirk:

I will not tell you that the theory of evolution is irrifutable truth, nor will i tell you that theism is complete bullshit,  the reason being is that these are things i can never know without lieing to myself. nor should anyone.  :mad:

But, (and there always is a but) someone allready said numbers do not lie, and it all comes down probability, the theory of evolution is probably correct, and creationism is probably wrong.

As for the original question, i dont know. All life has the will to survive and propagate, where this "wil"l came from I dont know.

little experiment: get a machine that can build at the atomic level, replicate the atomic/chemical structure of a bacterium exactly. Does it live or does it just sit there and have the identical chemical/structural make-up of a bacterium. can life be created? if life is just the product of a particular combination and arrangemt of atoms then shouldn't it be replicable? if it cant, that wouldn't affect evolution, but it would definently kick primordial soup in the ass.

one exsisting, and to me viable, explination is deism. god made life and left it be.


------1C()/\/    :confused: 


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doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is an absurd one.

Edited by iconoclast (03/06/03 11:20 AM)

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Offlinechemkid
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: MushyMay]
    #1355435 - 03/06/03 04:33 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

You mention that God created man as stated in the Bible. Next you say that doesn't leave room for evolution........this is exactly what I was talking about in my previous posts. WHY does the statement "....God created man..." exclude evolution in your eyes? The Bible makes no mention of how God creates any of his miracles. Why isn't Gods creation of man through evolution not a perfectly viable idea? Many astro physicists speak of the universe as being created by the big bang and not God.....why isn't Gods creation of the universe via the big bang a perfectly viable idea?

The post just before this one said that evolution wasn't a known fact.......clearly it is a known fact. Those that deny evolution are simply refusing truth. In the next breath he says that creationism is probably wrong.....personally I disagree.

Again, God being....well.....GOD, he made things such that they would be understandable and able to be discovered by man through science and curiosity. The best way to do this is to make consistently upheld natural laws. But God being the intelligent being he is didn't want it all to be "figure outable" ----enter the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principal. This is the bare bones proof (in my little mind) of the existence and brilliance of God. This is what you find at the reduction of all the natural laws of physics and chemistry----the fact that you can never know everything about a particle---the physical world is not deterministic.

I guess I'm starting to dip into MR.Mushrooms world of philosophy now. This was a wild tangent but hopefully you get what I am saying.


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Offlinewindex
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1356957 - 03/07/03 08:13 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Im not gonna bother reading all these posts so fogive me if someone has suggested this.

Im currently reading a book called Evolution by Stephen Baxtor, reading it on my PDA so im not sure quite how long the real book would be but im currently on page 723 of 2439, and its been a REAL good read so far, it starts out with the dinosaures and goes through quite a few of the different evolutions the primates have gone through.  Im still on the pre-human eras, but in the human times the basis is about how eventually all speicies for whatever reason will stall and eventually fail, the current humans are having a global meeting on just this and how to kick-start the humans into staying on top, but after the humans it also moves on to the decendants, havnt made it this far yet, but from the reading ive done so far am really looking forward to finishing this one. 


Also, Hello to all those who i used to talk with on almost a daily basis.. yeah i know i say this everytime i decide to come back, but hopefully itll stick this time :wink:  PM me if you want to give a hello please, no need to here

Edited by windex (03/07/03 08:22 PM)

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Offlinedjd586
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: MushyMay]
    #1358216 - 03/08/03 11:50 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I think a lot of people really misconstru the concept of evolution. I really don't know why so many people become so offended when evolution is brought up. I am subjected to religious attacks by people on a daily basis about what I do what I'm studying. I have never gone out of my way to attack The Bible or any concepts that lie within it pages. I respect that every person is entitled to his or her own views and beliefs and if I openly attacted religion I would be no better then thoes who attack biology, genetics and evolution. To even believe that some of the things that even happened in The Bible, a person would have to have a pretty open mind to openely accept what has happend throughout biblical history. If that's the case, why is it that people who have such an open mind and heart to accept faith readitly turn their shoulder on any other concept that doesn't fit within The Bible's foundations. If that's what believing in The Bible is about then I would rather not be a part of it. There are to many things in this world, this galaxy, in the universe that need us to be more open minded then what the average Bible follower wants to be.

To answer your post MushyMay I can only explain it in one way. Many people when then think of evolution think of that linear chart that displays man at present day to the far right and proceeds to the left where it begins with a primitive monkey figure. Well, that concept/view couldn't be further from the truth. Evolution isn't a straight line, nore will it ever be! Think of evolution more as a tree continuosly and forever branching out and up, and although one side of the tree is completly different then the other side, both sides still come from and are supported be the same tree trunk. It is possible for the parent species to coincide with the offspring species. Sometimes it happens where the offspring species becomes extinct and the parent lives on. Our species, Homo sapien, actually coincided with many of our ancestors and cousin species, i.e. Australopithecus, Homo habilis, Homo ergaster and Homo erectus, for 10 of thousands of years. The only reason our ancectors and cousin species are extinct and aren't around today is because our species simply out competed our cousin species and ancestor species. So don't think of it as if we evoloved from monkeys, we actually coeveolved from a parent species with the monkeys. We're actually on an evolutionary branch called "The Great Apes" with Chimpanzes, Gorillias, and Orangatangs. We're all related to each other because we share a comon ancestor, though we hold no other ties then that. I don't really know if I was able to answer your question MushyMay, but I hope from the example I provided you can see the light I was trying to shed for you.


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Offlineiconoclast
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: djd586]
    #1358561 - 03/08/03 02:06 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

to chemkid: "The post just before this one said that evolution wasn't a known fact.......clearly it is a known fact. Those that deny evolution are simply refusing truth. In the next breath he says that creationism is probably wrong.....personally I disagree. "

sorry to say kid, but evolution is not a fact, and according to the Oxford dictionary, evolution does not even meet the criteria to be a scientific theory--

"A branch of study which is concerned either with a connected body of demonstrated truths or with observed facts systematically classified and more or less colligated by being brought under general laws and which icludes trust-worthy methods for the discovery of new truth within its own domain."

thus, for a theory to qualify as a scientific theory it must be supported by events, processes or properties which can be observed, and must be usefull in predicting the outcome of natural events or lab experiments.

I believe that evolution is probably the natural course of life, but to say it is a fact does nothing more than display your want or need for truth, and the fact that you believe that creationism and evolution can both be right just intensifies this display.

have you heard of the Leakys, i recenty read thier book "origins" and i quote "human evolution does require a certain amount of faith", they would know a little more about the subject than you.

all i'm saying is dont believe things because they fit well, or it seems to agree with you. Find truth with complete and utter critical skepticism and then you will relize there is none.

----1C()/\/


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doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is an absurd one.

Edited by iconoclast (03/08/03 02:07 PM)

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Offlinechemkid
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: iconoclast]
    #1360345 - 03/09/03 11:34 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Actually i observe everything with absolute scepticism and a critical eye. You say they know more of evolution than I.....you have no idea who I might be which displays your inability to see possibility. I take my creationist views on faith as there is no way to prove or disprove their validity. This is why early on I chose not to discuss them too heavily.

Evolution on the other hand.......my friend........it is a fact. You claim there is no truth. Well in a philosophical, reductionist point of view, I agree that there is no absolute truth. However, the only frame of reference we have for observing "truth" is our own human existence. Since it is impossible to step outside of this frame of reference we must take for granted that some things are indeed true. The Laws of Thermodynamics may not be absolute truth but from our point of reference it just makes sense to accept them as true.

You gave your nice packaged little definition of theory and truth. If you would take a little time to fully examine all the facts behind evolution, you would see that it is clearly truth. The only difference between the acceptance of Laws of Thermodynamics or gravity or whatever else and the acceptance of evolution is the extremely strong religious resistance it receives. I challenge you to look into why you choose to stare facts in the face and deny them.

On a side note, in case we are arguing over two different concepts of evolution, let me define exactly what I am talking about. When I say evolution is a fact.....I am not saying that man from monkies is fact. I am simply saying that evolution exists. Again, look at the fruitfly experiments or Mendel's pea pods. IT EXISTS. Personally I feel that man did evolve from monkies but I wouldn't be so bold as to say it is a fact as there is no definitive evidence for that (although it comes close).

What I find amusing though, is your comment about me needing truth. My belief in both creationism and evolution is an intense display of this. (again, let me take time out to laugh here). First of all, anyone that says they are nbot seeking truth is an all out fraud. You yourself wouldn't be debating such things if you were seeking it or at least curious about it. It is human nature to seek truth (whether we find it or not is another matter). In fact, humans couldn't make their way through this whole confusing thing called life without seeking truth and accepting some things as truth (from our point of reference).

By the way.....a masters degree in biochemistry qualifies me somewhat to discuss the matter. So open your peabrain a tad bit and discuss intelligently and unemotionally before you resort to cute little antics of no substance.


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.

Edited by chemkid (03/09/03 11:36 AM)

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Offlinedjd586
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: chemkid]
    #1361279 - 03/09/03 06:18 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Man did not evolve from monkeys. To believe that is ignorace. That's like saying rabbits evolved from hamsters. Man coevolved with monkeys... and that is fact. It has been scientifically proven in the fossil records and through DNA mapping.


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Offlinechemkid
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: djd586]
    #1362943 - 03/10/03 11:01 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

amusing notion


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Offlineiconoclast
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: chemkid]
    #1363427 - 03/10/03 02:11 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

gunna make it quik kid-
1.EXPERTISE- no, the Richard E. Leakey is one of the worlds leading experts( i see the possiblility, but the probability is ~10 divided by ~6 billion, sorry)
2.CREATIONISM- its not disproveable because it is so vauge, obscure and so far from anyting resembling reality, that there can never be any proof for or against it, kinda like a fairy tale.
3.YOUR CHALLENGE- i dont deny evlution, i said its probably correct (i'd say about 95%, with a margin of error of 5%) i'm not in the slightest bit religious. The reason i dont fully accept it, are the numbers, your saying a process that has been occuring for about 2-3 billion years was perfectly deciphered and understood EXACTLY in about 150 years thats where my skeptisism arises from.
4.MENDEL- mendel proved the that traits are iherited (which is kind of intuitive) and the mathematical predictability of dominant and recessive alleles, nothing more.
5.WE AGREE!- i also think men direct decendent of a primate(see below)
6.TRUTH- "humans couldn't make their way through this whole confusing thing called life without seeking truth and accepting some things as truth" seeking yes, my comment was directed towards the accepting part of your statement. as you can see from my last post, i dont think it is possible for me (or anybody) to know that something is completley true, that was where my comment came from, you "accept" things to be true because you need some truth, not because you know them to be true. and confusing, yes i will have to agree.
6.???-"peabrain" come on man, do you really think i have a peabrain, i think you are a very intelligent person. i just think you are one of those people that need something to belive in, thats all, that doesnt make you better or worse than any body.
7. that wasnt really very quik
8. your mean
9. thats not good
10.i'm in high school


the leading theory of human evolution in a small peanut shaped shell.(mmm)

The book "Orgins" says we evolved from a non-hominid primate called ramapithicus (along with two varieties of australopithecus) , although it is not a "monkey" it is far from human. Primates are divided in two groups, prosimians, and monkeys and apes. monkeys and apes are further divided into 3 super-families, new world (ceboids), old world (cercopithecoids), and apes including gibbons, orangutan, chimps, gorilla and men.
okay, the first primate stock was on pangea, and it seperated, now there are monkeys in the new and old world. this "primate stock" in the old world evolved into Aegytopithecus zeuxis that lived around 28 million yearsago. From it, came Dryopithecine, which is the common anscestor that all humans and other apes share (20 million years ago). from dryopithecine came dryopithecus(all modern non-human apes share this relative), gigantopiticus (ancestor of large extinct asian apes) and ramapithecus( ancestor of the "homo" line), and thats how it supposedly all happened.

I hope that clears things up with human evolution.-1C()/\/


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Offlinedjd586
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: chemkid]
    #1363937 - 03/10/03 05:35 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Seriously, I have actually graduated with a degree in wildlife biology and I currently working towards my masters in macro evolution. I've been studying evolution for 7 years now, I don't know why anyone would question my knowledge on the subject. Man did not evolve from a monkey and that's that. The first primitive primate species evolved around that same time Ardipithicus ramidus evolved, which is our earliest walking ancestor, 5.4 million years ago. The only thing we actually share with the monkeys of today is a common ancestor. That common ancestor from 6.5 million years ago looked absolutly nothing like monkeys do today. So, please explain to me how we evolved from a monkey?


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: djd586]
    #1364046 - 03/10/03 06:22 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Do humans resemble chimpanzees more or less than either humans or chimpanzees resemble the common ancestor?


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Offlineiconoclast
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: djd586]
    #1365725 - 03/11/03 09:25 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

who said we evovled from monkeys? I dont think anybody who understands evoluution would say that, if someone did say that i think they mean we have a commen ancestor with modern apes, i hope. maybe mokeys evolved from humans cus they wanted four hands and didnt like people. i wish i could evolve into a monkey. :grin: 


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Offlinedjd586
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: iconoclast]
    #1366857 - 03/11/03 04:38 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

chemkid did


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Offlineiconoclast
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1369172 - 03/12/03 11:06 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Baby_Hitler- theres a picture in a book of mine of our most commen ancestor(an informed artists recreation of course), and i would have to say that chimps and people resmble the ancestor more than eachother, i would post the picture but it seems you cant directly upload a picture to this site, seems like you need a link to another site. if not someone tell me how and ill post it.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: iconoclast]
    #1369373 - 03/12/03 12:26 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

When you make a post there is a link just above the text field that says "Put picture(s) in this post."


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OfflineRadioActiveSlug
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1379604 - 03/16/03 12:08 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

All is one. Levels of complexity make that which is "one" more interesting. with life we can experience existence consciously, there is an infinite amount to experience, for all of eternity, and that is why life will never stop evolving, and becoming more complex. In fact, there are probably infinite forms of existence, more complex than life, each one more complex than the last. pretty cool huh?



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Offlineiconoclast
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: RadioActiveSlug]
    #1380347 - 03/16/03 07:21 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

In fact, there are probably infinite forms of existence, more complex than life, each one more complex than the last. pretty cool huh?





how do you come to that conclusion?


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: RadioActiveSlug]
    #1387918 - 03/18/03 10:19 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

"In fact, there are probably infinite forms of existence, more complex than life, each one more complex than the last. pretty cool huh?"

Yeah that's cool but please define "infinite forms of existence" - are you referring to a multiverse of some type?


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
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Edited by Strumpling (03/18/03 10:20 AM)

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OfflinexPooPx
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Phluck]
    #6271679 - 11/11/06 11:26 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
Now, I really don't want to insult you, but this is exactly what I was talking about a few threads back when I was saying that some people who "believe" in the theory of evolution don't even really understand it and know what it means.

Evolution is not about things improving, or increasing in size. It's about random changes, and survival. DNA is delicate, when it's being replicated, there are bound to be flaws, it will change from the original with each copy. This is mutation. When one of these random mutations actually improves the organisms ability to survive, then it thrives, expands, and spreads itself. Billions upon billions of mutations eventually lead to multi-celled organisms... then digestive systems, and muscles, and limbs, eyes, ears.... and so on.



absoºutelly! the same reason
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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: xPooPx]
    #6273588 - 11/11/06 09:39 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah, I'm not going to read 110 replies but it's obvious that a lot of people don't understand evolution. It's not a guided process. Things don't "adapt" in the way people think they do. It's random. Survival of the fittest, no matter what makes them the most fit.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #6273784 - 11/11/06 10:43 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

There should be a law that anyone who doesn't understand evolution, and tries to talk about it, has to go in the Box for 48 hours.

Seriously, evolution is not that complicated people. Read a book or two on it, and it'll come to you. But if you're still asking, "WHY?" or misinterpreting random mutations as too random to create order, you don't know what natural selection is.

Then, once you become enlightened, we can start discussing whether evolution is gene-centered (which it clearly is) or not. But seriously, read a few pages on biology once and awhile.

Here's a few good places to start:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_evolutionary_synthesis


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