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InvisibleTheHateCamel
Research &Development -DBK
Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 15,738
Re: WHY has life evolved? *DELETED* [Re: Viking]
    #1329741 - 02/23/03 07:15 PM (21 years, 1 day ago)

Post deleted by TheHateCamel

Reason for deletion: b



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Offlinecybrbeast
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: TheHateCamel]
    #1329970 - 02/23/03 09:33 PM (21 years, 1 day ago)

If you want to learn something about the genome and evolution read this:
Genome: The Autobiography of a Species in 23 Chapters by Matt Ridley
It really is an amazing book. You don't have to be an expert to read it. It's a bit difficult now and then, but still very understandable popular science..

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060932902/qid=1046082675/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/002-5254842-8333665?v=glance&s=books 


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Offlinedjd586
Underpants Gnome

Registered: 02/03/03
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1339862 - 02/27/03 07:23 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Alright... evolution... an extremely intriguing subjuct. I am a biologist. I have a bachelors of science in biology and I am curently working towards my masters in biology, studying macro-evolution. The real intresting thing about evolution that a lot of people don't know is evolution can be displayed and proven in equations, numbers and solutions. I'm not out to convince all the anti-evolitionists that evolution is real, all I am saying is numbers don't lie. Anyhow, to answer your question about why life didn't stop at a single cell organism is fairly simple. First off, to understand evolution you have to understand that nature isn't out to evolve. Evolutions isn't a goal or an outcome, it just happens. Genetic mutation is the driving force of evolution as we know it... as we venture back into time some 2 billion years ago and arive at your single cell organisms floating in the sea, we find that that organism is sucessfull in terms of it's reproductive fitness. An individual that is able to reproduce and have sucessfull offspring is considered to be fit... thus the term survivial of the fittest doesn't actually mean physically fit, it means reproductively fit. Anyhow, that single cell organism, had a genetic mutation in it's reproductive cycle about every one out of 10 million offspring. Considering that it was most likely asexual the rate of mutation was high. To make a long story short, eventually one mutation came a long that made the offspring more sucessfull for it's environment then it's parent and over sucessive generation eventually became the dominant species and out competed the original species utill the orginal species became extinct. Now these mutations continued untill some time down the line that one cell organism mutated into a 2 celled organism and was more sucsessfull then the one cell organism and so on and so forth.

Hope I cleared things up for you. I have a tnedency of rambling when I talk about evolution because it's really hard to know where to beging when you attempt to explain the concepts of evolution


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: djd586]
    #1340306 - 02/27/03 09:41 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

seems like chaos theory ties in nicely with evolution


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OfflineMushyMay
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: djd586]
    #1343277 - 02/28/03 02:39 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Great post :smile:

I've just got one question.
Quote:

eventually one mutation came a long that made the offspring more sucessfull for it's environment then it's parent and over sucessive generation eventually became the dominant species and out competed the original species utill the orginal species became extinct. Now these mutations continued untill some time down the line that one cell organism mutated into a 2 celled organism and was more sucsessfull then the one cell organism and so on and so forth.


This means that as an organism mutates and evolves it keeps making the older organism extinct, which would mean that you only ever have one organism that is more evolved than all of it's ancestors  There are millions of different organisms.  Could you elaborate on this?   


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MushyMay is a fictional character, as a result any information provided by MushyMay is also fictitious.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: MushyMay]
    #1343976 - 02/28/03 08:32 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

This means that as an organism mutates and evolves it keeps making the older organism extinct, which would mean that you only ever have one organism that is more evolved than all of it's ancestors There are millions of different organisms. Could you elaborate on this?





The origional doesn't always die out. Some mutations will make the new organism more suitable to a different environment than the origional, and it will not have to compete with the other.


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Offlinechemkid
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1345033 - 03/01/03 12:43 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

WOW.....the misconceptions of evolution and genetic mutation in this discussion are staggering. First off, evolution is not a theory or a convenient counter to religious suppositions. I am a Christian and believe very much in God. However, this doesn't preclude me from believeing in evolution. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Evolution has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. The resistance comes from those that for some reason think that believing in it would go against their ideas of God. Recall for a moment......those pesky little astronomers that discovered earth isn't the center of the solar system. They were scorned, laughed at and ultimately beheaded by the church ran political system. At that time they thought it was so detremental to religion that the earth wasn't the center of the universe. Now we laugh at their ignorance and can't even comprehend why it was thought to be so contrary to religion. This, I believe, is where evolution is today. It "appears" to be so against our pillars of faith that we are too unobjective about the facts in front of our face. Anyway.....now to try and answer the question.

Life started as prokaryotic organisms (single cells). The commonly accepted "theory" is that one prokaryote somehow enveloped another then using that ingested cell for a much more specific function. Which we now see as organelles in cells. This gave rise to eukaryotes (multicellular organisms).

Someone had asked the question of genetic shuffling and mutation. I think it is important to define mutation as this will probably alleviate some of the confusion as to what is really going on. When most people hear the word mutation they think of some attrocious looking monster or the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Mutation in reality isn't that scary, quickly noticable and dramatically changing to physical characteristics. As some may already know, DNA is made up of four different base pairs abbreviated G,A,T,C. Every time DNA replicates itself to pass on to its daughter cells there is a chance that a mutation will occur; which simply means a different base will be inserted into the DNA. So instead of a G, maybe a C will be used.

DNA has many natural repair mechanisms that almost always detect and repair the wrong base pair. Sometimes however, one slips throught the cracks. This mutation usually isn't life threatening or even noticeable. Those G's and C's are what determines what kind of protein will be translated (made). So if there is a slight difference in the protein structure it's function will be affected. So if some protein (enzyme) is supposed to contribute to building up calcium in the bones but due to its mutation it is working overtime, maybe you get seriously thick bones. This mutation being completey random may be beneficial to the organism or might be a liability. It depends on the organisms habitat and survival habits. If the organism is known to get in territorial battles or swing from trees etc. then having stronger bones would help that organism survive a fall from the trees or a devestating blow from a rival. If however that organism is known to be aquatic or aerial then having stronger, heavier bones would slow it down, making it more vulnerable to predators. Now if this random mutation helps its survival, it's genes will remain in the gene pool much longer than its weaker counterparts. Now maybe this gene will get bread out or maybe it wont....that's the randomness of evolution. But if it stays in then the species is forever changed. You have to keep in mind that none of this will be noticable in anyones lifetime. It takes thousands of generations for there to be a noticable change.

Evolution can easily be proven by all the experiments done with fruit flies. Many generations can be born in front of an observer for which mutations can be easily seen. Evolution/mutation is also proven in humans by cancer. 99% of all cancers are from genetic mutation that cause abnormal cell growth. It so happens that cancer is a mutation that isn't beneficial to our survival. Its persistence in our gene pool is thanks to our life sustaining techniques by drugs and other therapies. Not to mention that abnormal cell growth mutations are virtually impossible to breed out even without drugs becasue anything can cause them like sun, smoking, etc.


Hope this clears things up. Peace




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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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OfflineMushyMay
Brian Eno is mypersonal God FNORD

Registered: 02/18/02
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: chemkid]
    #1346710 - 03/02/03 10:48 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I don't mean to come across as doubting the evolution of organisms. That is not my intention or belief. I just want to learn about it from people who seem to think they know, and the best way is to ask questions. Here's another. So organisms evolve, that is well documented and I am fully aware of the experiments with the fruit flies. But, how did life evolve from non-life? That is the problem I have with evolution. I don't believe that evolution is an acceptable solution to the emrgence of life from a "primordial soup." Nor do I believe that God came over and just thought "hey I might create some life." So how did life just spontaneously appear from nowhere. You say your a Christian and believe in God and evolution. Then you must admit that belief in evolution does seem to exclude some of the "truth" in the bible. That must mean you are a Christian who doesn't believe in the bible (or at least not all of it.)


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MushyMay is a fictional character, as a result any information provided by MushyMay is also fictitious.


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Offlinechemkid
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: MushyMay]
    #1347216 - 03/02/03 03:03 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Actually, I believe in the Bible in its entirety. Evolution doesn't contradict the Bible's teachings. Since it is impossible to prove religious suppositions I will only discuss the scientific aspects.

It would take a lot to explain how life formed from non-life. I will try to summarize as much as possible while keeping a shred of understanding in it.

I'm sure we can agree that all life is comprised of cells (life as we know it anyway).
All cells are enclosed by a membrane, as are all organelles inside the cell. Really, the biggest obstacle to creating a cell that can sustain life is its formation.

The membrane is comprised of many individual molecules (phospholipids). These molecules are part hydrophobic, part hydrophilic. This means part of the molecule likes to be in water and part of it wants to do everything it can to get away from water (try to put water on wax, or mix water with oil. These substances are hydrophobic). An interesting phenomenon happens when you put a bunch of hydrophobic (water fearing) molecues together.....they tend to aggregate (come together). This is called the hydrophobic effect. The reason they aggregate is they are trying to put the parts that hate water in a clump to "shield" it from exposure to water. This leaves the water loving part exposed. Imagine these molecules kind of shaped like a sperm. The head part loves water while the tail hates water. If all the heads can come together in a huddle formation then only the tails are exposed. This aggregation is called a micelle. Unfortunately, this formation doesn't leave any room in the middle to contain organelles for life functions. There is another formation however that yields the needed cell structure. Imagine a line of these molecules. Now imagine another line in fornt of the first line (like a mirror image). Now you have a double layer of these molecules. All the tails tucked in between the two lines of heads away from water. You can make a hollow sphere of this double layer which can contain water and organelles.

The beautiful thing about these formations is that they happen spontaneously. No poking or prodding is necessary to get it to do this. Now that the cell structure is made...just add millions of years, a little random chance, and voila....you have the first cellular life form.

This summary is an extreme injustice to the complexity of everything but I hope it helps a little bit.

A thought to ponder on:

Why do some feel that by evolution existing.....God does not? Why couldn't God in his infinite wisdom have just let these things take their own course so that things would have a natural progression and would make sense to mankind. Anyway, so when mankind did finally evolve into homosapiens then souls could be bestowed upon them. A wonderful book you can read that kind of illistrates this point with many scientific facts backing up evolution, age of the earth and the authors belief in God is called "Finding Darwin's God".


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: djd586]
    #1347323 - 03/02/03 03:49 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Thank god SOMEONE here understands evolution.

For the number of proponents of evolution here, few people seem to actually comprehend it.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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OfflineScarfmeister
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: Phluck]
    #1347920 - 03/03/03 01:37 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Its really not that complicated. Life could have started in numerous places on the newborn earth, be it in the atmosphere, primordial goo or underwater hot-springs.

All the building blocks of life can be found almost everywhere in space. In the sun, in space and even on asteroids. I read somewhere that complete amino acids has been found on asteroids.
The human body is nothing more then a vessel for our DNA.



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OfflineMushyMay
Brian Eno is mypersonal God FNORD

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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: chemkid]
    #1352314 - 03/05/03 10:04 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Not being my area of study I have much to learn about evolution. I think anyone who thinks they know one truth above all others is just kidding themselves. I would never say that belief in evolution excludes God, but the bible is not God. I don't believe in the bible. I have read much of it over the years and for the most part it is a good read (to read it all in one go is a bit much though.) I've spoken to many people who dismiss parts of the bible with the old "oh, but that's just the old testament." IMO, the old Testament is in the bible, so you either believe in the whole bible or not. So here is my evolution/bible problem. Genesis(1:1) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. No problems there, plenty of room for evolution. But, Genesis (1:27) 27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Not much room for man to evolve here if we were created by God. (I'm not going to touch on the interesting quote of "Let us make man in our image", that is another topic altogether.) Admittedly, for the most part, Genesis allows for evolution totally (for anyone who disagrees with that I suggest you read it.)


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MushyMay is a fictional character, as a result any information provided by MushyMay is also fictitious.


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Offlineiconoclast
what nothing is,and to fill orrefill
Registered: 02/21/03
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: MushyMay]
    #1353225 - 03/05/03 05:35 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

hmmmmm...., it's like........  everyone wants to drive, and you have room to seat everybody , but nobody will get in , and so you never get there


I am just in awe to how youthful indoctrination can blind an observant man, how belief is transformed into truth, and what some will belive to be true, and most of all...  how deception can be self induced. :smirk:

I will not tell you that the theory of evolution is irrifutable truth, nor will i tell you that theism is complete bullshit,  the reason being is that these are things i can never know without lieing to myself. nor should anyone.  :mad:

But, (and there always is a but) someone allready said numbers do not lie, and it all comes down probability, the theory of evolution is probably correct, and creationism is probably wrong.

As for the original question, i dont know. All life has the will to survive and propagate, where this "wil"l came from I dont know.

little experiment: get a machine that can build at the atomic level, replicate the atomic/chemical structure of a bacterium exactly. Does it live or does it just sit there and have the identical chemical/structural make-up of a bacterium. can life be created? if life is just the product of a particular combination and arrangemt of atoms then shouldn't it be replicable? if it cant, that wouldn't affect evolution, but it would definently kick primordial soup in the ass.

one exsisting, and to me viable, explination is deism. god made life and left it be.


------1C()/\/    :confused: 


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doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is an absurd one.


Edited by iconoclast (03/06/03 11:20 AM)


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Offlinechemkid
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: MushyMay]
    #1355435 - 03/06/03 04:33 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

You mention that God created man as stated in the Bible. Next you say that doesn't leave room for evolution........this is exactly what I was talking about in my previous posts. WHY does the statement "....God created man..." exclude evolution in your eyes? The Bible makes no mention of how God creates any of his miracles. Why isn't Gods creation of man through evolution not a perfectly viable idea? Many astro physicists speak of the universe as being created by the big bang and not God.....why isn't Gods creation of the universe via the big bang a perfectly viable idea?

The post just before this one said that evolution wasn't a known fact.......clearly it is a known fact. Those that deny evolution are simply refusing truth. In the next breath he says that creationism is probably wrong.....personally I disagree.

Again, God being....well.....GOD, he made things such that they would be understandable and able to be discovered by man through science and curiosity. The best way to do this is to make consistently upheld natural laws. But God being the intelligent being he is didn't want it all to be "figure outable" ----enter the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principal. This is the bare bones proof (in my little mind) of the existence and brilliance of God. This is what you find at the reduction of all the natural laws of physics and chemistry----the fact that you can never know everything about a particle---the physical world is not deterministic.

I guess I'm starting to dip into MR.Mushrooms world of philosophy now. This was a wild tangent but hopefully you get what I am saying.


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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Offlinewindex
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1356957 - 03/07/03 08:13 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Im not gonna bother reading all these posts so fogive me if someone has suggested this.

Im currently reading a book called Evolution by Stephen Baxtor, reading it on my PDA so im not sure quite how long the real book would be but im currently on page 723 of 2439, and its been a REAL good read so far, it starts out with the dinosaures and goes through quite a few of the different evolutions the primates have gone through.  Im still on the pre-human eras, but in the human times the basis is about how eventually all speicies for whatever reason will stall and eventually fail, the current humans are having a global meeting on just this and how to kick-start the humans into staying on top, but after the humans it also moves on to the decendants, havnt made it this far yet, but from the reading ive done so far am really looking forward to finishing this one. 


Also, Hello to all those who i used to talk with on almost a daily basis.. yeah i know i say this everytime i decide to come back, but hopefully itll stick this time :wink:  PM me if you want to give a hello please, no need to here


Edited by windex (03/07/03 08:22 PM)


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Offlinedjd586
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: MushyMay]
    #1358216 - 03/08/03 11:50 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I think a lot of people really misconstru the concept of evolution. I really don't know why so many people become so offended when evolution is brought up. I am subjected to religious attacks by people on a daily basis about what I do what I'm studying. I have never gone out of my way to attack The Bible or any concepts that lie within it pages. I respect that every person is entitled to his or her own views and beliefs and if I openly attacted religion I would be no better then thoes who attack biology, genetics and evolution. To even believe that some of the things that even happened in The Bible, a person would have to have a pretty open mind to openely accept what has happend throughout biblical history. If that's the case, why is it that people who have such an open mind and heart to accept faith readitly turn their shoulder on any other concept that doesn't fit within The Bible's foundations. If that's what believing in The Bible is about then I would rather not be a part of it. There are to many things in this world, this galaxy, in the universe that need us to be more open minded then what the average Bible follower wants to be.

To answer your post MushyMay I can only explain it in one way. Many people when then think of evolution think of that linear chart that displays man at present day to the far right and proceeds to the left where it begins with a primitive monkey figure. Well, that concept/view couldn't be further from the truth. Evolution isn't a straight line, nore will it ever be! Think of evolution more as a tree continuosly and forever branching out and up, and although one side of the tree is completly different then the other side, both sides still come from and are supported be the same tree trunk. It is possible for the parent species to coincide with the offspring species. Sometimes it happens where the offspring species becomes extinct and the parent lives on. Our species, Homo sapien, actually coincided with many of our ancestors and cousin species, i.e. Australopithecus, Homo habilis, Homo ergaster and Homo erectus, for 10 of thousands of years. The only reason our ancectors and cousin species are extinct and aren't around today is because our species simply out competed our cousin species and ancestor species. So don't think of it as if we evoloved from monkeys, we actually coeveolved from a parent species with the monkeys. We're actually on an evolutionary branch called "The Great Apes" with Chimpanzes, Gorillias, and Orangatangs. We're all related to each other because we share a comon ancestor, though we hold no other ties then that. I don't really know if I was able to answer your question MushyMay, but I hope from the example I provided you can see the light I was trying to shed for you.


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Offlineiconoclast
what nothing is,and to fill orrefill
Registered: 02/21/03
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: djd586]
    #1358561 - 03/08/03 02:06 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

to chemkid: "The post just before this one said that evolution wasn't a known fact.......clearly it is a known fact. Those that deny evolution are simply refusing truth. In the next breath he says that creationism is probably wrong.....personally I disagree. "

sorry to say kid, but evolution is not a fact, and according to the Oxford dictionary, evolution does not even meet the criteria to be a scientific theory--

"A branch of study which is concerned either with a connected body of demonstrated truths or with observed facts systematically classified and more or less colligated by being brought under general laws and which icludes trust-worthy methods for the discovery of new truth within its own domain."

thus, for a theory to qualify as a scientific theory it must be supported by events, processes or properties which can be observed, and must be usefull in predicting the outcome of natural events or lab experiments.

I believe that evolution is probably the natural course of life, but to say it is a fact does nothing more than display your want or need for truth, and the fact that you believe that creationism and evolution can both be right just intensifies this display.

have you heard of the Leakys, i recenty read thier book "origins" and i quote "human evolution does require a certain amount of faith", they would know a little more about the subject than you.

all i'm saying is dont believe things because they fit well, or it seems to agree with you. Find truth with complete and utter critical skepticism and then you will relize there is none.

----1C()/\/


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doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is an absurd one.


Edited by iconoclast (03/08/03 02:07 PM)


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Offlinechemkid
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Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: iconoclast]
    #1360345 - 03/09/03 11:34 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Actually i observe everything with absolute scepticism and a critical eye. You say they know more of evolution than I.....you have no idea who I might be which displays your inability to see possibility. I take my creationist views on faith as there is no way to prove or disprove their validity. This is why early on I chose not to discuss them too heavily.

Evolution on the other hand.......my friend........it is a fact. You claim there is no truth. Well in a philosophical, reductionist point of view, I agree that there is no absolute truth. However, the only frame of reference we have for observing "truth" is our own human existence. Since it is impossible to step outside of this frame of reference we must take for granted that some things are indeed true. The Laws of Thermodynamics may not be absolute truth but from our point of reference it just makes sense to accept them as true.

You gave your nice packaged little definition of theory and truth. If you would take a little time to fully examine all the facts behind evolution, you would see that it is clearly truth. The only difference between the acceptance of Laws of Thermodynamics or gravity or whatever else and the acceptance of evolution is the extremely strong religious resistance it receives. I challenge you to look into why you choose to stare facts in the face and deny them.

On a side note, in case we are arguing over two different concepts of evolution, let me define exactly what I am talking about. When I say evolution is a fact.....I am not saying that man from monkies is fact. I am simply saying that evolution exists. Again, look at the fruitfly experiments or Mendel's pea pods. IT EXISTS. Personally I feel that man did evolve from monkies but I wouldn't be so bold as to say it is a fact as there is no definitive evidence for that (although it comes close).

What I find amusing though, is your comment about me needing truth. My belief in both creationism and evolution is an intense display of this. (again, let me take time out to laugh here). First of all, anyone that says they are nbot seeking truth is an all out fraud. You yourself wouldn't be debating such things if you were seeking it or at least curious about it. It is human nature to seek truth (whether we find it or not is another matter). In fact, humans couldn't make their way through this whole confusing thing called life without seeking truth and accepting some things as truth (from our point of reference).

By the way.....a masters degree in biochemistry qualifies me somewhat to discuss the matter. So open your peabrain a tad bit and discuss intelligently and unemotionally before you resort to cute little antics of no substance.


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


Edited by chemkid (03/09/03 11:36 AM)


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Offlinedjd586
Underpants Gnome

Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 1,655
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: chemkid]
    #1361279 - 03/09/03 06:18 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Man did not evolve from monkeys. To believe that is ignorace. That's like saying rabbits evolved from hamsters. Man coevolved with monkeys... and that is fact. It has been scientifically proven in the fossil records and through DNA mapping.


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Phase 1... collect underpants... phase 2...??? ... Phase 3 - PROFIT!


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Offlinechemkid
Be excellent toeach other

Registered: 06/21/02
Posts: 506
Loc: Between a rock and a hard...
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
Re: WHY has life evolved? [Re: djd586]
    #1362943 - 03/10/03 11:01 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

amusing notion


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An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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