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Invisibledaytripper23
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The problems with claiming doubt (or, the magic subject)
    #11171930 - 10/02/09 10:54 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Of all magical entities, the ideal subject is just another one that doesn't actually exist.

What is "truly" asserted by Cartesian doubt is only a convenient nihilism, because it was never actually presented as a structural whole. The problem with cartesian dualism doesn't mean that it doesn't work; it only means that it is like any other myth of the soul. Our current myth of reality is walking around as subjective entities only to have the rug pulled out from under us every once in a while. We posit this outside force "we know we cannot know" as objectivity.

But we had to understand it enough to name it as such. In this system, the object is necessitated by the subject, and we eventually think it passes to "just say so". In this way, the object is ultimately derived from its object-ness, or as "predicated".

The recent topic on genius and talent is a good example to draw this out. http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11171759#11171759 When someone says that a person is "gifted", we might liberally think of that claim: "well ultimately that is his subjective opinion, but he is entitled to it." In other words, even though we quick to negate his claim in a certain sense, we nevertheless allow him to frame the situation in a certain way, which is not necessarily realistic at all. For instance, we might entirely overlook the fact that if someone gifted, he must have been somehow given to in this example. Whether this person should be gifted or not assumes precedence over the reality that is regardless of what should be. By inordinate existence of the subject, he is subject to discourse as "possibly gifted", which means that he is either thrown into a frame with no reference (subjectivity as nihilism), or one with probability as its "theme" (subjectivity as constitutive of reality). Our meditation on this subject "to-be-implied", is now forgotten to be a meditation; and still being stuck in our head, we "implicate outward".

We create the slates of "expressionism" or  "psychological self actualization" as taking part in some oxymoronic scientific experiment of "random-probability", where the subject is somehow magically flitting in between. Again using the "genius and talent" thread as an example - of what we don't understand about reality, such as why a person is "naturally gifted", we might subjectively posit something at once entirely meaningless, while at the same time claiming a frame of reference. For instance, we might say its called "luck" to be naturally gifted, without necessarily sounding entirely religious in that claim.

Nothing has essentially changed since our so called enlightenment. The soul was an old sentiment that was praised and kept sacred, while the subject is a re-sentiment that is deprecated and pointed at. (such as in philosophy we tend to point out each others "subjectivity"), These are two sides of the same coin. The modern mysticism is only granted as realistic, because it is a step back from another group of robed men. Doubt, as it has become indicative of some thing/object in itself, just replaces the myth's plot-line with holes, as if this fixed the problem.

The modern ontological presumption is made through implications; again "expressively" or "psychologically", - which is to say for each, manifestly, thanks to the convenient magic of subjectivity. Even externally, we find all our categories upon a ground of being which we can only assume to know. For instance, it is said that  a cat is this, and a dog is that. But we don't even know what that ground of being is. "Being is being" only takes our burden and multiplies its weight by three.

We assume our many analogies of being as manifest of being. Of course, that is a correct assumption in one direction. The problem is when it is referred back. In closing, I am going to use a controversial argument for an example of what I mean by this particular failure of modernism:

The typical debate on evolution is unfortunately stuck in the same subject-object paradigm. Creationists raise an inquiry into what "manifestly" exists, and the  evolutionists will often take that bait, in their underlying assertion of what realitiy is. The world may clearly not be 6000 years old, but that is only demonstrated because it is a conveniently ridiculous myth. There is a mistaken referral that evolution is somehow grasping that question which the creationists have raised.  Evolution could not practically debunk the infinite extension of creation myths, or rather, it could not so practically posit and assert its ground as infinity, which is the closest we may get to conceptualizing the thrownness of evolution. Evolution is being in time, while the format of the creationist question is irrelevantly where (that) time began.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


Edited by daytripper23 (10/03/09 03:04 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The problems with claiming doubt (or, the magic subject) [Re: daytripper23]
    #11173793 - 10/03/09 09:22 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

what?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: The problems with claiming doubt (or, the magic subject) [Re: Icelander]
    #11177860 - 10/04/09 12:21 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

What s happen in' Ice land er

something about how we conveniently mold things together.



--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The problems with claiming doubt (or, the magic subject) [Re: daytripper23]
    #11177922 - 10/04/09 12:36 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)



--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The problems with claiming doubt (or, the magic subject) [Re: daytripper23]
    #11179421 - 10/04/09 11:32 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

:rofl2::rofl2::thumbup::thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: The problems with claiming doubt (or, the magic subject) [Re: Icelander]
    #11183548 - 10/04/09 11:13 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I drank water from a cartesian well once.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The problems with claiming doubt (or, the magic subject) [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #11183569 - 10/04/09 11:15 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

That's all in your sorted past my boy. Look to your future.

And with that I bid u good night.:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: The problems with claiming doubt (or, the magic subject) [Re: Icelander]
    #11187630 - 10/05/09 05:14 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Supposing that many of us here agree that the "soul" is a central item in a tyrannical doctrine, my question is what makes the subject any different.

This subject, our "liberty of indifference"; is just as obscure, with the only change that it has manifestly opened (the subject) to discourse. But why is this considered useful to us? To make our problem as such, "explicit", should not be mistaken for solving the problem:

Once we had belief, then we had doubt, but there is really no reason to believe there has been any kind of progression in way of thinking. It has only opened the public sphere, which  has (arguably) only made our problem more urgent. To open our ears to the varying opinions of left and right, belief and doubt; is perhaps best considered as something more problematic.

Many people think there are different meanings to the subject; such as one that is associated with authority and politics, and the other (quite juxtaposed) as the freedom of philosophy. This difference is as insignificant and obscure as the line it has established between left and right; belief and doubt.

Consider that the "integrity" of the subject, our fundamental point of tact for claiming doubt, can be traced to a single etymological root.

Quote:


1315, "person under control or dominion of another," from O.Fr. suget, subget "a subject person or thing" (12c.), from L. subjectus, noun use of pp. of subicere "to place under," from sub "under" + combining form of jacere "to throw." In 14c., sugges, sogetis, subgit, sugette; form re-Latinized in Eng. 16c. Meaning "person or thing that may be acted upon" is recorded from 1592. Meaning "subject matter of an art or science" is attested from 1541, probably short for subject matter (c.1374), which is from M.L. subjecta materia, a loan translation of Gk. hypokeimene hyle (Aristotle), lit. "that which lies beneath." Likewise some specific uses in logic and philosophy are borrowed directly from L. subjectum "foundation or subject of a proposition," a loan-translation of Aristotle's to hypokeimenon. Grammatical sense is recorded from c.1638. The adj. is attested from c.1330. Subjective "existing in the mind" is from 1707.




Through the apparent facticity of I cogito (I think therefore I am), by thus "interpreting" the subject, Descartes opened the world to interpretation. Imagine that...

He took a word that was derived solely from authority (being as subject to authority) and somehow used it as the foundation for freedom. This may have "opened" the public sphere, to what we call the "explicit", but as useful as this may be, it does not solve its own problem. It's only put it into words, through which I am concerned, we might conveniently forget that problem, or think it to be somehow solved in this way.

Really, there is only one kind of subject, and there is no integrity in it. Wherever it stands in the spectrum of "reality", all it stands for is the affectations of authority, as subject to. All too often, it is (authoritatively) mistaken for pride and nobility of the mind. What is happening, is the integrity of silence and nothingness is being mistakenly "claimed", and thus spoken positively as doubt, or the subject of our logos.

It is a common way to befuddle our words with reality, and this is no better than the empty words of the original, "explicit" authority. Even with all our post-modern disclaimers, including this one, we will continue to presume the realm of the explicit, "the best we can do" as our truth. This is still our problem.


"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent."

- Ludwig Wittgenstein


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


Edited by daytripper23 (10/05/09 06:19 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The problems with claiming doubt (or, the magic subject) [Re: daytripper23]
    #11187633 - 10/05/09 05:15 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

what?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: The problems with claiming doubt (or, the magic subject) [Re: Icelander]
    #11188089 - 10/05/09 06:23 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Scratch this post


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


Edited by daytripper23 (10/05/09 07:22 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The problems with claiming doubt (or, the magic subject) [Re: daytripper23]
    #11188163 - 10/05/09 06:33 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

oh, it sure would help us unedjamacated folk if you would dumb it down a little bit.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: The problems with claiming doubt (or, the magic subject) [Re: daytripper23]
    #11188520 - 10/05/09 07:10 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Forget that last post.

What we do here is point out each others subjectivity, only to ultimately have our own separate "views". We have come so far in this theme to actually think it is possible to address each other's ideas "impersonally". Our modern, liberal spirit.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: The problems with claiming doubt (or, the magic subject) [Re: daytripper23]
    #11188703 - 10/05/09 07:32 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

:strokebeard:


--------------------
Jesus loves you.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The problems with claiming doubt (or, the magic subject) [Re: daytripper23]
    #11188715 - 10/05/09 07:33 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
Forget that last post.

What we do here is point out each others subjectivity, only to ultimately have our own separate "views". We have come so far in this theme to actually think it is possible to address each other's ideas "impersonally". Our modern, liberal spirit.




OHHHHHHHHHH! Yeah you're right.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: The problems with claiming doubt (or, the magic subject) [Re: Icelander]
    #11192775 - 10/06/09 12:37 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I am wondering is if it is necessary to entirely "dispose" the subject. Part of me thinks yes, and this is likely part of the reason I can't seem to quite open this discussion. I don't understand what I am preaching. It seems to me if we presently have a problem, this is where the discussion begins. I've been reading a guy named Heidegger recently, who was correct to point out many problems with the subject. This is largely here I am coming from.

He turned out  be a Nazi. This is a problem.

Could bring up Nietzsche too, whose philosophy was adopted less voluntarily by the national socialist party. (make what you will)

He once notoriously announced the "death of God". As I understand this, he is asking what if we didn't have recourse to the debate between belief and doubt; the subject? What if we could not even hide behind our "views"?

Quote:


      Have you not heard of that madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning hours, ran to the market-place, and cried incessantly: "I am looking for God! I am looking for God!"
  As many of those who did not believe in God were standing together there, he excited considerable laughter. Have you lost him, then? said one. Did he lose his way like a child? said another. Or is he hiding? Is he afraid of us? Has he gone on a voyage? or emigrated? Thus they shouted and laughed. The madman sprang into their midst and pierced them with his glances.

  "Where has God gone?" he cried. "I shall tell you. We have killed him - you and I. We are his murderers. But how have we done this? How were we able to drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire horizon? What did we do when we unchained the earth from its sun? Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving now? Away from all suns? Are we not perpetually falling? Backward, sideward, forward, in all directions? Is there any up or down left? Are we not straying as through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder? Is it not more and more night coming on all the time? Must not lanterns be lit in the morning? Do we not hear anything yet of the noise of the gravediggers who are burying God? Do we not smell anything yet of God's decomposition? Gods too decompose. God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we, murderers of all murderers, console ourselves? That which was the holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet possessed has bled to death under our knives. Who will wipe this blood off us? With what water could we purify ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we need to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we not ourselves become gods simply to be worthy of it? There has never been a greater deed; and whosoever shall be born after us - for the sake of this deed he shall be part of a higher history than all history hitherto."

  Here the madman fell silent and again regarded his listeners; and they too were silent and stared at him in astonishment. At last he threw his lantern to the ground, and it broke and went out. "I have come too early," he said then; "my time has not come yet. The tremendous event is still on its way, still travelling - it has not yet reached the ears of men. Lightning and thunder require time, the light of the stars requires time, deeds require time even after they are done, before they can be seen and heard. This deed is still more distant from them than the distant stars - and yet they have done it themselves."

  It has been further related that on that same day the madman entered divers churches and there sang a requiem. Led out and quietened, he is said to have retorted each time: "what are these churches now if they are not the tombs and sepulchres of God?"






--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The problems with claiming doubt (or, the magic subject) [Re: daytripper23]
    #11192838 - 10/06/09 12:48 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

so (what?)

Are you having a problem? Then out with it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: The problems with claiming doubt (or, the magic subject) [Re: Icelander]
    #11192863 - 10/06/09 12:52 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Nietzsche was greatly concerned with what would happen to a culture (at large) moving into an era lacking a strong belief in a judger beyond this life who could enforce in peoples minds more reasons (softer guilt appeals) to support mans supposedly moral/ethical behavior. He is not so cut n dry on the subject imo.


--------------------
Jesus loves you.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The problems with claiming doubt (or, the magic subject) [Re: andrewss]
    #11192900 - 10/06/09 12:57 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I get it but his concern is not my concern. It's unimportant IMO.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: The problems with claiming doubt (or, the magic subject) [Re: Icelander]
    #11194352 - 10/06/09 04:59 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

its just another thing he wrote about...


/endderailment :lol:


--------------------
Jesus loves you.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The problems with claiming doubt (or, the magic subject) [Re: andrewss]
    #11194549 - 10/06/09 05:28 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

It's important to this discussion IMO.
A dead imaginary god isn't bad unless you think what has been happening so far is pretty great.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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