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Offlinesgaltair
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Bah, I think I messed up
    #11167238 - 10/02/09 01:28 AM (8 years, 18 days ago)

Ok I have 3 grain jars that I did my best to sterilize. The first two I steam sterilized (yes I know, it's a no no). The third I sterilized in a small PC, with the jar laying on it's side (I didn't know this could be done before).

Here's my procedure (I'm trying to grow Mexicana Galindii ATL#7):

Treating Grain:
Measure out rye grain
Rinse thoroughly, repeat
Soak overnight
Bring to a full boil for 10 minutes
Strain very well


Substrate Recipe:
Per quart jar:
300ml of rye grass seed
"Pinch" of gypsum
Shake
150ml of half coffee/half water, mix in
Add a spoonful of coffee grounds for good measure
Shake... again
Let sit
PC for 60 mins/boil for 2+ hours
Cool, then inoculate
Shake once more

(I haven't inoculated yet)

Now, I think I've done all this correctly.

With the first two jars I boiled them for 3 hours. I did have an incident where they boiled dry (I was taking a shower.... stupid stupid stupid) but only for a few minutes. I wouldn't be surprised if those are ruined, but I want to try to inoculate them anyway.

The third jar was put in a small (too short for quart jars) pressure cooker with about 3 inches of water. I put two small glass dishes in the bottom to lift the jar out of the water somewhat. I put foil and a some wire (in place of a rubber band. I make chainmaille on occasion as a hobby so wire is more abundant in my apartment :wink:) around the top of the jar.

All three seem to have too much water in them. And all three are clumping together a lot. The steam sterilized ones have been sitting for approximately 10 hours. The PC'd one has set for 6 hours. I'm going to let them continue to set until tomorrow morning (another 8 hours).

I believe the amount of grain (the volume of grain, I should say) is better in the PC'd jar, as it seems to be awfully low in the steam sterilized ones. But I don't imagine it's great in any of them.

Here are some pictures. Is there something I'm doing wrong with my prep? Here's a question: My recipe calls for 300ml of grain. I measure out the 300ml dry, then rinse it, soak it, and boil it for 10 minutes. After that it takes up more space than 300ml. Should I measure the 300ml dry, or wet?

I'm sorry for so much reading. I tend to type too much for what I need to say.

Steam sterilized jar:





PC'd



Sorry, these are taken with a Motorola Razor :wink:


--------------------
"Zydrate comes in a little glass vial..." Repo! The Genetic Opera

"Measure what is measurable and make measurable what is not so."
Galileo Galilei

"When the veil falls
All will be made manifest
And the warriors of the ethereal
Will be our only defense"

~~altair~~


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Invisibleratdog
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Re: Bah, I think I messed up [Re: sgaltair]
    #11167307 - 10/02/09 01:41 AM (8 years, 18 days ago)

did you shake them when you took them out the pc/what eva

?


and why did you add water to the ? sub and was all of it mixed before pc?

looks like too much water.  150 ml h20 to 300 mil of g seed is way over 100% must take into account the space between seeds.

go by dry weight of the seeds and all other stuff you stuck in and then figure the weight of water and the % hydration you want to use.


--------------------
some people just don't get it:spank:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11241796
so here is a video or two or three for you guys:rolleyes:


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Offlinefundamentalchair
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Re: Bah, I think I messed up [Re: sgaltair]
    #11167335 - 10/02/09 01:45 AM (8 years, 18 days ago)

When I do the grain soak is when I put the gypsum in.

I'm not sure about RGS, but with rye, when straining, i shake the hell out of it till it stops steaming. The rapid evaporation of the surface moisture (outside of the grain) helps get it to field capacity.

With it being that clumpy, if it were rye berries, those would be too wet (again, not sure about RGS)

I'm really not sure if the boiling thing will work. Are you using something between the bottom of the pot and your jars?

If you have a small PC and you're growing sclerotia, perhaps myco bags would suit you better.


--------------------
semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit


Sclerotia FAQ... If ya ain't got any stones, grow some.

Will work for Laetiporus sulphureus culture/spores (or any other Laetiporus actually), :pm: me.

My Trade list.

Ghetto Tek: Auto FAE & Light


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Offlinesgaltair
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Re: Bah, I think I messed up [Re: ratdog]
    #11167475 - 10/02/09 02:09 AM (8 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:


did you shake them when you took them out the pc/what eva

?





Yes

Quote:


and why did you add water to the ? sub and was all of it mixed before pc?





I thought I was supposed to add water? 150 ml half coffee half water added to the quart jar before steaming/pressure cooking. And yes it was all mixed and shaken up in the jar.

Quote:


looks like too much water.  150 ml h20 to 300 mil of g seed is way over 100% must take into account the space between seeds.





I was following a description from this post in "Easier Than Cubes!!!" I must have misunderstood?

Quote:


I'm really not sure if the boiling thing will work. Are you using something between the bottom of the pot and your jars?





I know the boiling thing may not work. It was a bit of a desperate attempt. I did the best I could to weigh down the lid to create some pressure, though I know it was (mostly) futile. Honestly I'm hoping to get lucky. And yes there was a wash cloth on the bottom of the pot.

Quote:


If you have a small PC and you're growing sclerotia, perhaps myco bags would suit you better.





I've been told that. My only problem is finances. I work a low wage grocery store job (I'm looking for a better job, it's tough though). I spent a weeks pay on this endeavor and hoped to be able to manage with that.

I'm trying to make due with what I have.


--------------------
"Zydrate comes in a little glass vial..." Repo! The Genetic Opera

"Measure what is measurable and make measurable what is not so."
Galileo Galilei

"When the veil falls
All will be made manifest
And the warriors of the ethereal
Will be our only defense"

~~altair~~


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Offlinefundamentalchair
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Re: Bah, I think I messed up [Re: sgaltair]
    #11167560 - 10/02/09 02:23 AM (8 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

I've been told that. My only problem is finances. I work a low wage grocery store job (I'm looking for a better job, it's tough though). I spent a weeks pay on this endeavor and hoped to be able to manage with that.




I feel ya, man. Keep in mind that myco bags are pretty cheap. I know you don't want to toss more money at the problem, but $10 in bags could be the difference between a nice sclerotia harvest and wasting the $30 you spent on a syringe.

Just remember, there is always time to do it right, never time to do it over.


--------------------
semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit


Sclerotia FAQ... If ya ain't got any stones, grow some.

Will work for Laetiporus sulphureus culture/spores (or any other Laetiporus actually), :pm: me.

My Trade list.

Ghetto Tek: Auto FAE & Light


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinesgaltair
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Re: Bah, I think I messed up [Re: fundamentalchair]
    #11167582 - 10/02/09 02:29 AM (8 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

fundamentalchair said:
Just remember, there is always time to do it right, never time to do it over.





Wise words if I've ever heard them.

I've prepared a liquid culture so hopefully I won't run out of spore solution. I don't plan on buying more. Period.


--------------------
"Zydrate comes in a little glass vial..." Repo! The Genetic Opera

"Measure what is measurable and make measurable what is not so."
Galileo Galilei

"When the veil falls
All will be made manifest
And the warriors of the ethereal
Will be our only defense"

~~altair~~


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleratdog
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Re: Bah, I think I messed up [Re: sgaltair]
    #11167648 - 10/02/09 02:44 AM (8 years, 18 days ago)

man try this

just the rye grain ....your tek sounds good till you hit the additives....

knock your rye up and pc the jar too before you do it... then get some hay ........it should not be hard to find wheat straw or barley straw

its close to Halloween and people put bails out for decoration all the time. and this you can steam to a temp of 170 d F for 1 hr. use the hay as your bulk.

thats it simple cheep and works.all you need is the pc rye lc and hay . you can steam in the colander if that is what you used "metal of course"

good luck with it.


--------------------
some people just don't get it:spank:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11241796
so here is a video or two or three for you guys:rolleyes:


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Offlinesgaltair
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Re: Bah, I think I messed up [Re: ratdog]
    #11167713 - 10/02/09 02:56 AM (8 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

ratdog said:
man try this

just the rye grain ....your tek sounds good till you hit the additives....

knock your rye up and pc the jar too before you do it... then get some hay ........it should not be hard to find wheat straw or barley straw

its close to Halloween and people put bails out for decoration all the time. and this you can steam to a temp of 170 d F for 1 hr. use the hay as your bulk.

thats it simple cheep and works.all you need is the pc rye lc and hay . you can steam in the colander if that is what you used "metal of course"

good luck with it.





Many many people have come to the conclusion that those exact additives are great for the growth for stone producing strains. I believe my problem was moisture, not those additives.


--------------------
"Zydrate comes in a little glass vial..." Repo! The Genetic Opera

"Measure what is measurable and make measurable what is not so."
Galileo Galilei

"When the veil falls
All will be made manifest
And the warriors of the ethereal
Will be our only defense"

~~altair~~


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinefundamentalchair
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Re: Bah, I think I messed up [Re: sgaltair]
    #11168207 - 10/02/09 06:49 AM (8 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

man try this...




That would be a great formula for fruiting a mushroom, however since we're talking about sclerotia this may not be such a great idea. Also, it sounds like that would go over his budget of $0.

Quote:

i use rogers method, its fool proof.

measure 300ml of rye grass seed in your quart jar.

drop in a pinch of gypsum.

shake well.

measure 150ml of half coffee / water mix in.

shake that bad boy again.

let sit for 2 hours.

PC for 60 mins.

cool / inoculate.

all my jars done like this are coming on nicely, not to wet not to dry.

This equation even worked for a filter patch bag.

multiply everything by 4 and you laughing!

4 jars worth in one bag.




That quote is from the 'easier than cubes' thread. Although unconventional, I think the idea is to put in un-pre-processed RGS into the jar (no pre-boil). I had to read it over a couple of times, but I think that's what the intent of it. RR probably has a post somewhere about this in more detail. I'd look for it but quite frankly I'm lazy/tired.

Good luck with the stones, yo. I can't wait till I get my hands on some P. mexicana A.


--------------------
semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit


Sclerotia FAQ... If ya ain't got any stones, grow some.

Will work for Laetiporus sulphureus culture/spores (or any other Laetiporus actually), :pm: me.

My Trade list.

Ghetto Tek: Auto FAE & Light


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinecyb3rtr0n
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Re: Bah, I think I messed up [Re: fundamentalchair]
    #11168448 - 10/02/09 09:02 AM (8 years, 18 days ago)

Yea,  Rye grass seed doesn't need the same amount of soak time as other grains.

http://www.mushroomvideos.com/Rye-Grass-Seed-Preparation

I used the above process for my sclerotia quart jars and have success.


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Offlinesgaltair
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Re: Bah, I think I messed up [Re: fundamentalchair]
    #11168541 - 10/02/09 09:29 AM (8 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Yes, definitely I get more water into a jar of rye berries than the same size jar of grass seed.

With rye berries, I use 1 cup(240 ml) of water and one cup of dry grains per quart jar.  With rye grass seed, I use 1 1/4 cups(300 ml) of grass seed and 5/8 cup(150 ml) of water.

Three of the biggest keys to success with rye berries are rinsing the dry grains first to remove the dust and chaff, slow hydration by soaking in warm water(I begin the soak with hot tap water), and making sure the exterior of the grains are dry when loaded into jars.  The only reason I bring the soaked grains to a boil is to get them hot before draining.  The steaming grains evaporate the moisture off their surface, leaving them dry on the outside, while still nice and plump from all the moisture inside.  One could just use a towel to dry off the surface of the rye after soaking, but letting it steam the moisture off is easier in my experience.  While the hot grains are in the collander steaming and draining, it gives me a few minutes to get my jars and lids/filters ready to go.
RR




That is a post by RR in the thread Mex A on rye pissing me off. I know he's using rye berries, but it seems the processes are very similar. He does in fact wash the grains, but I think I might see where I went wrong:

Quote:


Three of the biggest keys to success with rye berries are
rinsing the dry grains first to remove the dust and chaff
slow hydration by soaking in warm water(I begin the soak with hot tap water)
and making sure the exterior of the grains are dry when loaded into jars.





Sooo, check, check, and oooh.... shit. My grains certainly were not dry. I'm not sure how boiling them is supposed to make them dry, but I'm not going to argue with proof and experience. I think I may see where I messed up, specifically. I thought the idea of the whole rinsing/boiling/straining process was to wash the grain, not hydrate it (well I thought both, but I didn't realize the latter was more internal hydration, less external). I believe that I probably rinsed the straining (after boiling) seed with water, which would have stopped the steaming and drowned my seed.

So my question now is, shall I try to inoculate with clumpy seed or just toss the whole batch and try again? Do you think there's a chance this seed could work or is it simply too wet? What if I stuck the jars in the oven on a low heat for 45 minutes or so? Or would that just cook them?

Quote:


Yea,  Rye grass seed doesn't need the same amount of soak time as other grains.

http://www.mushroomvideos.com/Rye-Grass-Seed-Preparation

I used the above process for my sclerotia quart jars and have success.





I followed the grain prep video from that website. But you're right that page doesn't mention soaking/boiling. It mentions hydrating the grain in the jars. This is all rather confusing. Aren't you supposed to soak rye so that the contams already there can germinate and thus be vulnerable to heat.

Thank you for your patience and assistance.


--------------------
"Zydrate comes in a little glass vial..." Repo! The Genetic Opera

"Measure what is measurable and make measurable what is not so."
Galileo Galilei

"When the veil falls
All will be made manifest
And the warriors of the ethereal
Will be our only defense"

~~altair~~


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Offlinecyb3rtr0n
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Re: Bah, I think I messed up [Re: sgaltair]
    #11168696 - 10/02/09 10:29 AM (8 years, 18 days ago)

the steam created by boiling them helps evaporate the excess moisture on the outside of the husks(?) while straining.  when you toss the grain you have in the strainer to distribute the moisture before draining again, the steam will help again, and again for the next few minutes.

The moisture content we want is on the inside of the grain..


so, yea, a 10 min boil helps with grains.


It also helps the endoscopes germinate(?) so they will be killed off when you go to steralize.



.... I think


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Re: Bah, I think I messed up [Re: cyb3rtr0n]
    #11168719 - 10/02/09 10:36 AM (8 years, 18 days ago)

I would toss it.

I noticed something starting to grow after a day and a half in a jar of extra rye berries I had the last time I prepped.  I left the lid off .

I think it would be safer to give it a longer soak rather than a longer drying period, especially if someone didn't boil.

Once I pit a sealed lid on it stoped growth, and I've left is sit for about a week with no growth..  I'm just going to toss that jar. Bur, I was curious what it would do.


Edited by cyb3rtr0n (10/02/09 10:38 AM)


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Offlinecyb3rtr0n
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Re: Bah, I think I messed up [Re: sgaltair]
    #11168740 - 10/02/09 10:42 AM (8 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

sgaltair said:


I followed the grain prep video from that website. But you're right that page doesn't mention soaking/boiling. It mentions hydrating the grain in the jars. This is all rather confusing. Aren't you supposed to soak rye so that the contams already there can germinate and thus be vulnerable to heat.

Thank you for your patience and assistance.




sorry man, Im pretty high right now and I answered things like two times without reading your whole post..


but, yea rye GRAINS, and rye GRASS SEED have two separate techniques that work well.

the grass seed husk is easier for the moisture to penetrate.  that's why there is a difference.


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Offlinesgaltair
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Re: Bah, I think I messed up [Re: cyb3rtr0n]
    #11168773 - 10/02/09 10:52 AM (8 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

cyb3rtr0n said:
Quote:

sgaltair said:


I followed the grain prep video from that website. But you're right that page doesn't mention soaking/boiling. It mentions hydrating the grain in the jars. This is all rather confusing. Aren't you supposed to soak rye so that the contams already there can germinate and thus be vulnerable to heat.

Thank you for your patience and assistance.




sorry man, Im pretty high right now and I answered things like two times without reading your whole post..


but, yea rye GRAINS, and rye GRASS SEED have two separate techniques that work well.

the grass seed husk is easier for the moisture to penetrate.  that's why there is a difference.




Ok. So apparently I just got a few different techniques mixed up.

For rye grass seed I should follow this page.

No soaking or boiling, just directly following those instructions?


--------------------
"Zydrate comes in a little glass vial..." Repo! The Genetic Opera

"Measure what is measurable and make measurable what is not so."
Galileo Galilei

"When the veil falls
All will be made manifest
And the warriors of the ethereal
Will be our only defense"

~~altair~~


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Offlinecyb3rtr0n
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Re: Bah, I think I messed up [Re: sgaltair]
    #11168819 - 10/02/09 11:09 AM (8 years, 18 days ago)

yes


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Re: Bah, I think I messed up [Re: cyb3rtr0n]
    #11168820 - 10/02/09 11:10 AM (8 years, 18 days ago)

Thanks for clarifying the difference between the rye grain and the rye grass seed.


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Offlinesgaltair
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Re: Bah, I think I messed up [Re: daytripper05]
    #11168830 - 10/02/09 11:12 AM (8 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

daytripper05 said:
Thanks for clarifying the difference between the rye grain and the rye grass seed.




:laugh: I second this. I was completely clueless as to the difference. I suppose I'm trying to assimilate too much information too quickly. I'm good at research and absorbing information, but everyone has their limits.


--------------------
"Zydrate comes in a little glass vial..." Repo! The Genetic Opera

"Measure what is measurable and make measurable what is not so."
Galileo Galilei

"When the veil falls
All will be made manifest
And the warriors of the ethereal
Will be our only defense"

~~altair~~


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
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Re: Bah, I think I messed up [Re: sgaltair]
    #11168848 - 10/02/09 11:19 AM (8 years, 18 days ago)

yea, it really helped me see the difference by trying both of them.  the rye grass seed seems easier to oversoak.


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Re: Bah, I think I messed up [Re: cyb3rtr0n]
    #11168941 - 10/02/09 11:51 AM (8 years, 18 days ago)

Rye grain is a lot cheaper around here too. I just called around and ordered a 50lbs for $17 where the only other local place I could find it was Whole Foods for $2 a lb. Any RGS I found was minimum $1 per lb.


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