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Offlinesolumvita
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Anaerobic bacteria: beneficial?
    #11163563 - 10/01/09 02:20 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Hi

I was just wondering if you prepared a substrate (say straw and wheat bran) and purposefully allowed anaerobe activity in the substrate.  After this (a suitable time period, whatever that is) the substrate is sterilized and then inoculated. 

My question is: is this possibly something that can help in breaking down and softening the substrate for easier/faster colonization?

ciao


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OfflineMycelio
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Re: Anaerobic bacteria: beneficial? [Re: solumvita]
    #11163730 - 10/01/09 02:54 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Submerging straw in water and fermenting it anaerobically for about a week is my usual pretreatment for Pleurotus species, Coprinus comatus and Stropharia rugosoannulata. The consumption of easy available carbohydrates and the final PH between 5 and 6 does not prevent fast colonization, indeed it is often faster as on pasteurized straw. But don't expect the straw to be sterile, it's just colonized by lactic acid bacteria and yeast.

The addition of grain or bran will give the fermentation a boost and the resulting PH will lie between 3 and 4. Here colonization is slow and needs lots of oxygen.

Carsten


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Re: Anaerobic bacteria: beneficial? [Re: Mycelio]
    #11170960 - 10/02/09 07:00 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

My question is: is this possibly something that can help in breaking down and softening the substrate for easier/faster colonization?




Don't mess around with anerobic fermentation.  When you grow up a huge batch of Clostridium botulinum you won't like the results.  Standard composting works just fine and won't allow obligate anaerobes like botulinum to grow.


-FF


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Re: Anaerobic bacteria: beneficial? [Re: fastfred]
    #11173525 - 10/03/09 06:06 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Interesting comment FastFred, but with straw and also with grain there must be something that favors yeast and lactic acid bacteria, preventing clostridium growth. Otherwise fermenting bales of straw wouldn't be common practice for growing oysters and starting sourdough would be a very risky business. Perhaps it is not completely anaerobic anyway.

When adding materials, which are high on nitrogen, like soy flour or manure things change completely, especially with chicken manure. Fortunately the smell of butyric acid makes it obvious.

Carsten


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Re: Anaerobic bacteria: beneficial? [Re: fastfred]
    #11180095 - 10/04/09 02:17 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
When you grow up a huge batch of Clostridium botulinum you won't like the results. 
-FF





Why, what will the results be?  Do you think it will make the mushrooms poisonous?


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Re: Anaerobic bacteria: beneficial? [Re: Mycelio]
    #11186303 - 10/05/09 01:27 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mycelio said:
Interesting comment FastFred, but with straw and also with grain there must be something that favors yeast and lactic acid bacteria, preventing clostridium growth. Otherwise fermenting bales of straw wouldn't be common practice for growing oysters and starting sourdough would be a very risky business. Perhaps it is not completely anaerobic anyway.




Botulinum is an obligate anaerobe, which means it's killed by oxygen.  Unless you have a completely anaerobic environment it won't grow.  So I just don't think it's a good idea to go to any lengths to produce an anaerobic environment since you'd be growing up a lot of bacterial species that you would never ordinarily come in contact with, some of them potentially deadly.


> Why, what will the results be?  Do you think it will make the mushrooms poisonous?

Yes, Clostridium botulinum produces one of the most deadly toxins known to man.  If you managed to grow some up you'd be dead before you even realized what was happening.

First you'd be paralyzed, then as the paralysis spread through your chest you'd realize your breathing had stopped, and finally you'd suffocate to death, likely still fully conscious.  Not a fun way to go.


-FF


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Re: Anaerobic bacteria: beneficial? [Re: fastfred]
    #11186651 - 10/05/09 02:20 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Okay, sounds like an idea for a mother-in-law (naah not really), but will the mushroom contain the toxin?

or will it like in some of Stamets claims, break the toxin down ?

Finally if the mushroom does contain the toxin does contact with the mushroom suffice to kill you or must it be ingested?

Sorry for the questions, but I need some firm answers as I already have the anaerobic situation in some of my grow logs. :evil:


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Re: Anaerobic bacteria: beneficial? [Re: fastfred]
    #11186995 - 10/05/09 03:12 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
Quote:

Mycelio said:
Interesting comment FastFred, but with straw and also with grain there must be something that favors yeast and lactic acid bacteria, preventing clostridium growth. Otherwise fermenting bales of straw wouldn't be common practice for growing oysters and starting sourdough would be a very risky business. Perhaps it is not completely anaerobic anyway.




Botulinum is an obligate anaerobe, which means it's killed by oxygen.  Unless you have a completely anaerobic environment it won't grow.  So I just don't think it's a good idea to go to any lengths to produce an anaerobic environment since you'd be growing up a lot of bacterial species that you would never ordinarily come in contact with, some of them potentially deadly.




I looked it up and found that the fermentation I was referring to is called semianaerobic, while oxygen is not completely eliminated. Thanks for making that clear.

Carsten


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Re: Anaerobic bacteria: beneficial? [Re: Mycelio]
    #11199685 - 10/07/09 12:35 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

> will the mushroom contain the toxin?

It certainly could.  Myc has been known to transport things long distances and concentrate elements from the substrate.

> or will it like in some of Stamets claims, break the toxin down?

Who knows?  It's not been studied.  There's certainly no evidence that it would break it down.

> Finally if the mushroom does contain the toxin does contact with the mushroom suffice to kill you or must it be ingested?

The oral LD50 is 1 ng/kg.  That means that one drop can kill about 600,000 people.  The inhalation LD50 is 3 ng/kg.  It's not absorbed through intact skin, but any little cut or scrape could allow it to kill you.

The thing is that it's just so crazy toxic that you don't want to be anywhere near it.  It's one of the most deadly toxins known to man.  A speck too tiny to see with the naked eye can kill dozens of people, so it's just not good to play around with it or take chances.


-FF


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Re: Anaerobic bacteria: beneficial? [Re: fastfred]
    #11199759 - 10/07/09 12:55 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not convinced at all that a bacterium would be carried by mycelium into the fruiting bodies. It would have to travel up the mycelium, cell to cell. We grow on e-coli containing manure all the time, and I don't know of anyone who's ever gotten e-coli from eating mushrooms.  Obviously, you'd want to clean off the stipe where it entered the substrate or better yet, cut it off.  I'm just speaking from experience here.  I had a LOT of grain spawn this spring that I didn't use, and it all went into the various manure/compost piles I have around the property.  All of the mushrooms were consumed and neither we, nor our neighbors ever got sick.
RR


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Re: Anaerobic bacteria: beneficial? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11199987 - 10/07/09 01:32 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

> I'm not convinced at all that a bacterium would be carried by mycelium into the fruiting bodies.

Carrying the bacterium isn't necessary.  All that needs to be transported is the toxin.  With E. coli there would never be enough of the toxin to cause a problem unless you actually consumed the bacterium and it multiplied in your gut.

With botulinum all that is needed is for well less than a microgram of toxin to be transported into the fruit bodies.  Since simple wicking action or diffusion through the substrate and into the fruit bodies could probably transport that much easily I would not be tempting fate like that.

Simple cooking will prevent E. coli from harming you, but it's never safe to eat anything that's been contaminated by botulinum.  Cooking will kill the organisim, but it won't destroy the toxin.


-FF


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Re: Anaerobic bacteria: beneficial? [Re: fastfred]
    #11225930 - 10/11/09 12:45 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

thank you FF, I am sure that the seals on my bags are not that good that an obligate anaerobe will survive.  which means I will still be able to post crazy questions :hehehe:

Ciao


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