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Invisibleanonjon
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Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer?
    #11137114 - 09/27/09 02:39 PM (12 years, 29 days ago)

I am about to argue that yes, absolutely; condensation in your fruiting chamber is an excellent indicator of high relative humidity. I will also argue that the reverse in not true; the lack of condensation is not an indicator of rh in any way.

Before you lock this thread, accuse me of blasphemy, burn me at the stake, etcetera, please hear me out.

Let's begin with a thought experiment: Imagine a glass orb floating in the vacuum of space. There is quite a bit of water in the orb and it has been floating for quite some time at a constant temperature.

The vapor pressure of the water is completely dependent on the temperature, so it also has been constant all this time. So we can expect that the relative humidity inside this orb is 100%. It has reached it's full potential for this constant temperature.

Our orb now floats through the shadow of some other object. It cools. The vapor pressure decreases, the volume of liquid water inside the orb increases. The vapor pressure is still at it's maximum potential. The rh is still 100%.

Our orb now floats out of the shadow. It warms. The vapor pressure begins to increase. The temperature is rising much faster than the water is evaporating back into a gas. The potential vapor pressure is now higher than the current vapor pressure. The rh of our orb is falling quickly, 90, 80, 70... The orb again reaches a constant temperature. The water is still evaporating; vapor pressure is now catching up with it's full potential at that constant temperature. The relative humidity is now rising, 70, 80, 90. It reaches it's full potential, 100% rh.

I argue that this is precisely what is happening inside our fruiting chambers. The warm moist air radiating from the mycelium is cooling against the walls of the chamber. The potential water vapor pressure is decreasing, forcing the vapor back into a liquid. It condenses against the wall of the chamber forming small droplets. Relative humidity begins to approach 100%, the small droplets now turn into small streams flowing downward into the perlite.

The cultivator looks at his or her terrarium and thinks, "Good, plenty of humidity in there. My babies should be happy."

Time passes. The cultivator dutifully fans his or her babies. Water vapor escapes and is replaced by the liquid water in the perlite. The water begins to get depleted. There's not enough water to sustain the h20 vapor pressure to it's maximum potential. The sides of the chamber are drying up. The cultivator looks at his or her fruiting chamber and thinks, "Oh no, I better water my babies. And gives the chamber a good misting." Water vapor pressure slowly reaches it's maximum potential. Water once again condenses on the sides of the chamber.

-----
end thought experiment

Let's look at what the trusted cultivator's on this forum have to say on this issue. Names have been removed to protect the innocent.

Condensation is an indication of a temperature differential, and has absolutely ZERO to do with relative humidity inside the terrarium. What you're saying is that in the winter when condensation forms on your windows, your house must be at nearly 100%, when in fact it's closer to 10% or even less. When you pull a beer out of the refrigerator or pour a glass of iced tea in the summer and the glass gets wet, does this mean it's 100% humidity, even if you're in the Arizona desert? As said hundreds of times, condensation is caused by a TEMPERATURE differential between two surfaces.

This argument has been made a thousand times over on the cultivation forum. The same examples are made, the same argument is made, over and over.

Lets begin with the basis of the argument, "Condensation is an indication of a temperature differential."

It's TRUE.

In fact the ONLY independent variables that matter for the calculation of rh are the current vapor pressure of water in the space you are measuring and the temperature. That's it. The other factors are scientific constants.

Lets look at the examples given: the warm air in your house bumps against the cold glass of your windows and forms condensation, yet the rh of your house is nowhere near 100%.

True. However, the rh of the air bumping against the glass is approaching 100% as it slowly forced into a liquid state forming condensation on the glass. Same thing applies to a beer you take out of the fridge on a warm day. The rh of the air bumping into the cold glass is approaching 100%.

Fortunately for our cultivator. The volume of his fruiting chamber is much smaller than that of a house. It is also fortunate that the heat generated by the mycelium is small. The temperature differential we're talking about is 5 degrees F at most.

So while the principle they are discussing is correct, their conclusion is wrong and their examples don't apply. Our cultivator is perfectly rational in assuming the condensation on the walls of his fruiting chamber is an indicator of high relative humidity.

Let me state clearly though that the reverse is not true and thus can not be used to falsify my argument. The absence of condensation is not an indicator of relative humidity. It could be 100 or it could be zero. There just isn't any condensation action occurring.

Now you might be thinking: that's an absurd argument. My fruiting chamber does not exist in a vacuum. There's all kinds of other gases there doing god knows what. Well, believe it or not the vapor pressure of water is independent of the vapor pressure of other environmental gasses. While it's possible there's some polar solvent affecting the vapor pressure, that is just as likely to throw off a hygrometer, or kill the mycelium, or kill the cultivator for that matter. For our purpose, we can assume that the vapor pressure of water is independent of atmospheric pressure.

Sorry to challenge an established paradigm, but I'm quite certain I am correct.

Perhaps I should post a link to this thread on the chemistry forum to get some backup.


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The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.


:moon:  :moon:  :moon:  :moon:    :moon:


Edited by anonjon (09/27/09 04:44 PM)


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OfflineThyrax
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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: anonjon]
    #11137121 - 09/27/09 02:40 PM (12 years, 29 days ago)

I remember RR Saying in this exact same word : Your face is not a valid Hygrometer, LOL


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OfflineNewfound_wonder
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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: Thyrax]
    #11137137 - 09/27/09 02:43 PM (12 years, 29 days ago)

Maybe you could test how accurate of a hygrometer your face is by measuring the humidity of a chamber with your face and then check it with a hygrometer.


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Invisibleanonjon
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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: Newfound_wonder]
    #11137150 - 09/27/09 02:48 PM (12 years, 29 days ago)

I expect someone to do this. They will wait till the walls are dripping, open the chamber, stick a hygrometer in there and take a picture.

I hope people can see the problem with that and how it would not disprove my hypothesis.


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OfflineBrandNewbie
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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: anonjon]
    #11137180 - 09/27/09 02:56 PM (12 years, 29 days ago)

Look, being politically correct is just NOT saying what everybody KNOWS is true. Having pointed that out, I'm gonna throw it out there,

IT'S MAGIC PEOPLE!  WHY DO YOU THINK THEY CALL THEM MAGIC MUSHROOMS!!!! Damn


(LOL I couldn't resist.) :calledajoke:


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: anonjon]
    #11195641 - 10/06/09 08:06 PM (12 years, 20 days ago)

booyah!

Great post.


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Offlineveda_sticks
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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: cne9999]
    #11195973 - 10/06/09 09:00 PM (12 years, 20 days ago)

You obviously havnt seen the monotub that had a shit load of condensation yet only 86%rh.

Condensation happens because of a differential in tempearute between the inside and outside. The surfaces of the walls will be slightly cooler and that allows moisture to condense out of the air, which happens regardles of RH. If theres moisture in the air, it can condesse out of the air.

All condensation says is that theres a temp diff and moisture in the air. It doesnt say how much, or even that its high enough for fruiting.

Take a cold beer out of the fridge, oh look condensation!! i better get the dehumidifier going!!!!

Also, we have seen many people post shouting "theres no condensation in my fruiting chamber! is my humidity low/how to raise humidity"

Even people questioning there hygrometer. There tubs fruited fine.

Quote:

Condensation is the change of the physical state of aggregation (or simply state) of matter from gaseous phase into liquid phase and the reverse of evaporation..[1] When the transition happens from the gaseous phase into the solid phase directly, bypassing the liquid phase, the change is called deposition. While condensation can occur in many different substances, the condensation of water vapor in air is by far the most common experienced (such as the formation of dew on a cold drink).

Condensation commonly occurs when a vapor is cooled to its dew point, but the dew point can also be reached through compression. The condensed vapor is called a condensate, the laboratory or the industrial equipment used for condensation is called a condenser.

The science of studying the thermodynamic properties of moist air and the interrelationships between these in order to analyze, and predict properties by changing in the conditions of moist air is called psychrometry. The interrelationship can be graphically represented, and prediction carried out graphically by the psychrometric chart. Most people think the water is condensation, but condensation is only the process of change.

Water vapor that naturally condenses on cold surfaces into liquid water is called dew. Water vapor will normally only condense onto another surface when the temperature of that surface is cooler than the temperature of the water vapor.




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Invisible13shroomsM
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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: veda_sticks]
    #11196154 - 10/06/09 09:30 PM (12 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

The message is simple and insightful: one piece of scientific data can describe two entirely differant perceptions. And when we truly believe in a perception, we see it as the one and only reality and ignore all other posible realities.




Spontaneous Evolution



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Invisibleanonjon
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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: veda_sticks]
    #11196415 - 10/06/09 10:12 PM (12 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

veda_sticks said:
You obviously havnt seen the monotub that had a shit load of condensation yet only 86%rh.




no I haven't, because it doesn't commonly occur. In order for that to occur there would have had to have been a sudden / drastic change in the temp outside the chamber. Most likely caused because the grow room was sealed.

Quote:


Condensation happens because of a differential in tempearute between the inside and outside. The surfaces of the walls will be slightly cooler and that allows moisture to condense out of the air, which happens regardles of RH. If theres moisture in the air, it can condesse out of the air.




Yes, we've established this fact. The warm air radiating from the mycelium condenses against the cooler chamber wall. But this moisture will not persist as a liquid, i.e. be visible, unless rh inside the chamber is high.

Quote:


All condensation says is that theres a temp diff and moisture in the air. It doesnt say how much, or even that its high enough for fruiting.





Sorry, you're wrong. Unless you've drastically changed the temp of your house or grow room, you can safely assume condensation is an indicator of high humidity.

Quote:


Take a cold beer out of the fridge, oh look condensation!! i better get the dehumidifier going!!!!





I covered this example in my post. I doubt you even bothered to read it before you regurgitated the crap you've absorbed from reading too many RR posts.

"Lets look at the examples given: the warm air in your house bumps against the cold glass of your windows and forms condensation, yet the rh of your house is nowhere near 100%.

True. However, the rh of the air bumping against the glass is approaching 100% as it slowly forced into a liquid state forming condensation on the glass. Same thing applies to a beer you take out of the fridge on a warm day. The rh of the air bumping into the cold glass is approaching 100%.

Fortunately for our cultivator. The volume of his fruiting chamber is much smaller than that of a house. It is also fortunate that the heat generated by the mycelium is small. The temperature differential we're talking about is 5 degrees F at most. "

Quote:


Also, we have seen many people post shouting "theres no condensation in my fruiting chamber! is my humidity low/how to raise humidity"





I covered this also...

"Let me state clearly though that the reverse is not true and thus can not be used to falsify my argument. The absence of condensation is not an indicator of relative humidity. It could be 100 or it could be zero. There just isn't any condensation action occurring."


For years and years before shotgun terrariums became popular, people used condensation as the best indication of high RH. Shotgun terrariums allow the moisture to dissipate without accumulating on the walls. So often you'll have high rh without condensation. This doesn't negate my argument in the least.

For our purposes, if you stick your face inside the terrarium and see water dripping down the sides, you may safely assume the RH is very high.

You can regurgitate that bs till you are blue in the face, but the facts are on my side.


--------------------
The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.


:moon:  :moon:  :moon:  :moon:    :moon:


Edited by anonjon (10/06/09 10:20 PM)


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Offlinecne9999
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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: anonjon]
    #11197842 - 10/07/09 01:34 AM (12 years, 20 days ago)

Booyah again! 

I may be repeating things but humor me! 

The question seems to be: Can you see and / or feel RH?  Or better stated, is your face a hygrometer?  My answer is absolutely yes!  and no...  Yes, that is a fact.  That is as long as you don’t have some sort of nerve disorder.  Sorry RR. 

Why yes and no?
YES - because you certainly can see RH at the levels needed to grow mushrooms if you know a few other things about your environment.  This is a fact and is not up for debate.

NO - because you cannot see RH at much lower levels.  AND you cannot see H (Humidity) at all but more on that later.

The condensation you see on that cold brew is simple to explain and you are seeing RH in action.  You are seeing an RH level of 100% in action.  LOL!  I will explain some more.  The surface of the can must be cooler than the water vapor that is touching; not the air outside the fridge.  Please remember this for later.

If there is enough water in the air to warrant the condensation AND that water vapor is warmer then the surface of the can you will see condensation that is the result of an RH of 100%.  You are seeing RH.  It is NOT the temperature outside the fridge itself that causes condensation.  But there you are seeing an RH level of 100% in that immediate area of the air that surrounds the can because that air is saturated.  That is a fact.  So even in your example you are seeing an RH level of 100%.  Thanks for making our point.  LOL!

The real question is “What is the actual saturation point of the particular environment?” That is RH.  Most of you think RH and H are the same.  They are not!

“Relative humidity” compares the actual amount of water vapor in the air with the amount of water vapor that the air can actually hold.  This factor changes with temperature, pressure, other gas content such as nitrogen, etc…

“Humidity” is not a comparison.  It is simply a flat measurement of water vapor in the air; at any temperature, at any pressure, at any time, at any rate, at any ‘ANY’.

One more fact to understand and this is where the ability to see RH starts to come into play, is that cold air cannot hold as much water vapor as warm air.  So the humidity level may never change but a change in temperature can change the RH.  Confused?  Sit tight…

Now that you know you can SEE RH let’s dig deeper and put it into perspective for our mushrooms.

So RH actually changes as the temperature changes but the humidity does not change at all.  But temperature is not the only thing that can affect RH.  There are many other factors.  Once you understand this you can start to know when you are seeing RH correctly or if some other factor is mimicking an RH effect. 

I don’t care what anyone else says, you can see RH.  Maybe not at all levels but you most certainly can see RH at certain levels.  More importantly those levels happen to be the same levels you need for your fungi to thrive at the temperatures they need to thrive.  So if you know the temperature in your ‘BOX’ then you certainly can see and feel if the RH is high.  Sorry RR.

What I look for is active condensation.  Dripping, smaller droplets, steam, fog, etc.  This is a sign of saturated air.  Meaning high RH, above 90%.  So yes I can see RH!  If my temperature is where I want it and I see active condensation I see RH.  I can tell if it is between 90% and 100% and that is all I need to know.  I have several terrariums I have never put an RH gauge in and they have produced some the best crops I’ve seen.  I watch them every day as often as possible and mist when I feel necessary but have never put an RH gauge in any of them.  The only time I do put a gauge in a tub or terrarium is when I am doing an experiment and then I do so as a control.  Only a good scientist would concede at that point. 

Look at my picture galleries.  They speak for themselves.  Do you see any gauges in the pictures that are not experimental cakes, tubs or trays?  No you don’t but there are still a lot of good harvests.

There is more you should understand before you can toss your RH gauge in the garbage.  When the air becomes saturated (RH at 100%), the extra water vapor will condense.  Period.  No matter what temperature as long as it is above freezing.  An RH of 100% will ‘rain’.

Also, concerning the mono-tub with what you think is condensation on the walls but has an RH of 86%.  This is an evaporation issue.  Not an RH issue.  It is relatively easy to spot.  Those droplets, and I’ve seen them, are ‘inactive condensation’.  That is my own term.  It simply means they condensed there at one time but there is not enough ambient and local energy to evaporate them.  For any liquid to evaporate it requires two things: Energy, usually in the form of heat or high relative temperatures, and motion which helps invoke the phase transition state.  In a mono-tub there is very little if any constant moving air.  The half minute of moving air you give that tub every hour or so is not enough.

This evaporation issue is also affected by the surface tension of the liquid and the molecules it holds.  You use tap water?  That has a high surface tension.  You use distilled water?  That has a lower surface tension.  Why?  The tap has dissolved solids the distilled does not.  Those affect the surface tension of the water.  So not all water is equal; Sorry again RR.  Yet another reason I use distilled water every where I can and can afford it.

Is anyone here familiar with ‘Screen Printing’?  It is a form of forced evaporation.  But I am not going deeper into that right now.  That is for another ten mile long thread.  Bottom line still water is easy to spot and what you saw in the mono-tub with an 86% RH is still water whose surface tension has not been broken and not active condensation. 

I think I’ve said enough for now.  But I have thousands more words on the subject if needed.

Bottom line:  For the RH you need to grow mushrooms if you know a some minimal things about your environment you definitely can see and even feel RH so YES, your face can be an adequate hygrometer for the basic aspects of the hobby.  Period.


--------------------
  Say hello to my little friend.    and...      From Sonny
     
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Invisiblefeelfunny
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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: cne9999]
    #11197903 - 10/07/09 01:42 AM (12 years, 20 days ago)

:popcorn: this is the most fun i have had all night


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: feelfunny]
    #11197932 - 10/07/09 01:46 AM (12 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

feelfunny said:
:popcorn: this is the most fun i have had all night




:rofl2:  Shit...  I nearly


--------------------
  Say hello to my little friend.    and...      From Sonny
     
AFOAF's Coffee Experiment  //  Rye Berry Cakes  //  My FOAF  //  I killed my baby Cubes!
Get a freaking camera!  //  Roscoe 'Fatty' Arbuckle  //  I love P.c.Burma!


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Invisibleanonjon
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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: cne9999]
    #11198864 - 10/07/09 08:52 AM (12 years, 20 days ago)

Great post, except one thing...

Quote:

cne9999 said:
�Relative humidity� compares the actual amount of water vapor in the air with the amount of water vapor that the air can actually hold.  This factor changes with temperature, pressure, other gas content such as nitrogen, etc�





This is actually what confuses most people. The above statement is incorrect.

Air is not a sponge that 'holds' water. RH is very simply a factor of 2 things: the current vapor pressure of water in the space in question, and the maximum possible vapor pressure of the water at that temperature.

The maximum possible vapor pressure of water at a given temperature is a scientific constant.

So really the only variables at play are the current vapor pressure of water and the current temperature of that water vapor.

It's counter-intuitive, but true.

This is why their arguments are silly. They keep saying in all caps: CONDENSATION IS CAUSED BY A TEMPERATURE DIFFERENTIAL. But RH is all about temperature differentials. Condensation and dewpoint are directly related to RH. That's the point I've been trying to make and that you make very well in your post above.

I do admit that a hygrometer is a useful tool to have. Because as I've admitted several times, the absence of condensation is not an accurate indication of anything at all. RH could be zero, 100, or any point in between.

I'm glad that someone else finds this as amusing/interesting as I do.

:smile:


--------------------
The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.


:moon:  :moon:  :moon:  :moon:    :moon:


Edited by anonjon (10/07/09 08:57 AM)


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: anonjon]
    #11199542 - 10/07/09 12:07 PM (12 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:


I covered this example in my post. I doubt you even bothered to read it before you regurgitated the crap you've absorbed from reading too many RR posts.




I can't believe such a simple 5th grade science lesson can be so hard to understand.  If you think condensation is an indicator of HIGH humidity, it's not worth arguing the point.  My beer will get condensation in the summer in the desert, even though ambient humidity is 10% or less.

Condensation indicates there at least was some humidity in the air, because it obviously formed condensation. However, it gives no indication of how much humidity was in the air. That moisture is no longer in suspension, because the surface of the terrarium has reached the dew point.  This happens most often when the lights are turned on, because the greenhouse effect warms the air in the terrarium(reducing RH by the way) to the point where the dew point is reached on the surface, thus forming condensation.  Using a shotgun terrarium generally eliminates this condensation problem by exchanging air across the temperature differential, thus canceling the temp swing.  It's the entire basis of how the shotgun terrarium works.

The presence of condensation is not an indicator of high humidity within the terrarium.  I still fail to see how this crap you've absorbed from reading too many RR posts is such a hard subject to grasp. This isn't advanced science. :shrug:
RR


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11199596 - 10/07/09 12:17 PM (12 years, 19 days ago)

Some people detest what you have to say, just because.  It's not even an issue of being right or wrong, it's an issue of RR said it.


to some people you are The Man. much like the government,  god, or a boss at work.  the real motive for disagreement is not that you are wrong, its just that you said it, and others use it as reference.


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: cyb3rtr0n]
    #11199710 - 10/07/09 12:41 PM (12 years, 19 days ago)

bleh.. buy a $5 gauge


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Edited by Herbal_Elixer (10/07/09 02:59 PM)


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: Herbal_Elixer]
    #11199933 - 10/07/09 01:24 PM (12 years, 19 days ago)

I am wondering if someone could measure the temperature inside their fruiting chamber (in the middle of the air, be careful to not disturb it too much) and outside (just next to it) and post it here. Let the thermometer equilibrate for at least 5 minutes. I would have done it myself if I would have had something fruiting right now, but alas, I don't.


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: cyb3rtr0n]
    #11201625 - 10/07/09 06:17 PM (12 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

the real motive for disagreement is not that you are wrong, its just that you said it, and others use it as reference.




That's not entirely true. I've learned a lot from the guy and I don't know of anyone who's done more for the advancement of the hobby.

But sometimes people get in a rut where they repeat the same argument so many times that they believe it to be divinely inspired.

You're right Roger, it is 5th grade science and I don't understand how you can continue to use the same inapplicable examples even after I thoroughly debunk them.

This is nothing like the condensation on a glass from the fridge.

1. The inside of the fridge is colder than the outside whereas in the terrarium the opposite is true.

2. The temperature differential in the terrarium's case is much smaller than the fridge.

3. You can observe the condensation without opening the terrarium. You aren't causing a sudden drastic temperature differential like you are by removing the beer from the fridge.

It just doesn't apply.


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: anonjon]
    #11201658 - 10/07/09 06:23 PM (12 years, 19 days ago)

you know what who gives a fuck I have never used a thing-a-maggiger and my shit does mighty fine so bleh...


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: anonjon]
    #11201688 - 10/07/09 06:28 PM (12 years, 19 days ago)

the substrate is also causing a difference.

the water has three places to go.  in the air, on the surface of the container or in the substrate.


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: cyb3rtr0n]
    #11201815 - 10/07/09 06:47 PM (12 years, 19 days ago)

Also, the condensation on a surface says little about the RH of the air behind it. It just shows that the air closer to the surface was cooled reaching its dew point (100% RH), and condensing against the surface. So with temperature fluctuation (light coming on/off, room temp, day/night etc.,.) the condensation on the surface cannot be a useful gauge to the air in the chamber.

"As moisture-laden air gets close to the cold surface it starts to get cooled and so the relative humidity increases; the greater it is cooled the higher the relative humidity. Against the cold surface the temperature of the air now drops below the dew point temperature and liquid water drops out as condensation."



Only knowing for sure that all temps are equal, in, out, and on the surface can you start to conclude that the RH is high. This is not something that can be made universal for everyone's set up on here.. however a true hygrometer is.


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: Herbal_Elixer]
    #11201887 - 10/07/09 06:56 PM (12 years, 19 days ago)

I wouldn`t say condensation means high humidity at the present time, but it certainly indicates sustained high humidity in the chamber over a period, and is a good indicator of favorable conditions for your mushrooms.  If your FC has continuous condensation, it`s a pretty safe bet your RH is at least acceptable.

My face IS a hygrometer!  I knew it all along.


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: Herbal_Elixer]
    #11201897 - 10/07/09 06:57 PM (12 years, 19 days ago)

Someone call Ryche Hawk and tell him he's a dummy who doesn't understand 5th grade science...

"A tip on humidity:
If you don't have a humidity gauge, one sure way my friend has found to determine humidity from looking at his gauges, is by judging the condensation on the walls of your grow chamber. For casings you want around 82%-92% humidity. If you see the walls of your grow chamber just sweating away with condensation and they're dripping constantly, then you more then likely have 100% humidity, this is fine for cakes but not casings.

To judge 82%-92% humidity you should only see light condensation on the walls with the occasional dripping. This is after some fresh air has been pumped into your chamber and you let it sit for an hour or two. "

-Ryche Hawk


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: anonjon]
    #11201911 - 10/07/09 06:59 PM (12 years, 19 days ago)

:ashamed:


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: anonjon]
    #11201917 - 10/07/09 07:00 PM (12 years, 19 days ago)

more than likely, doesn't mean 100% of the time.....  :shrug:

just like saying use a shotgun chamber with 5" of perlite and more than likely you will have proper  RH%


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: anonjon]
    #11201939 - 10/07/09 07:02 PM (12 years, 19 days ago)

lol.. then he proceeds to tell you how to find a good hygrometer about 20 words later (wonder why).


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: cyb3rtr0n]
    #11201945 - 10/07/09 07:04 PM (12 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

just like saying use a shotgun chamber with 5" of perlite and more than likely you will have proper  RH%





lets not take shots at shotgun tubs :tongue2:


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: 13shrooms]
    #11205089 - 10/08/09 02:49 AM (12 years, 19 days ago)

Assume a vessel wall temperature of 20 °C. This means the saturation vapour pressure at the wall surface is 17.54 torr. Any air from the inside of the vessel having a higher vapour pressure, and cooling to the wall temperature, will cause condensation on the wall. If the vessel air temperature is 21 °C, the saturation vapour pressure is 18.65 torr. So if condensation forms in my example, it is known the vapour pressure is at least 17.54 torr, with a maximum of 18.65 torr. This means that the relative humidity is at least 17.54/18.65*100 = 94%.

Adjust the above with real temperatures. :smirk:


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: anonjon]
    #11205820 - 10/08/09 07:10 AM (12 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

anonjon said:
For years and years before shotgun terrariums became popular, people used condensation as the best indication of high RH.



I'm one of those people who used perlite terrariums for years & years and no, we used hygrometers as the best indication of high RH.

And yes, what Ryche wrote is incorrect.


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: Thyrax]
    #11205836 - 10/08/09 07:19 AM (12 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Thyrax said:
I remember RR Saying in this exact same word : Your face is not a valid Hygrometer, LOL




RR is NOT god.
*gets struck down by a napalm coated lightning bolt*
:onfire: ...Geez, I'm sorry, I'm sorry...
*sacrifices b+ sporeprint to his RR\Agar shrine*
seriously tho, RR CAN be wrong (I guess?), but yea, he's right on this(and pretty much everything else).
Your face < Hygrometer


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: 13shrooms]
    #11205841 - 10/08/09 07:20 AM (12 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

13shrooms said:
Quote:

just like saying use a shotgun chamber with 5" of perlite and more than likely you will have proper  RH%





lets not take shots at shotgun tubs :tongue2:




Can't you see they've been through enough? =(

Besides, it's sacreligious....they're very holey :wink:


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Edited by Ingrimus (10/08/09 07:21 AM)


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: Dudester67]
    #11205848 - 10/08/09 07:24 AM (12 years, 19 days ago)

T-T-T-TRIPLE POST
Quote:

Dudester67 said:
Quote:

anonjon said:
For years and years before shotgun terrariums became popular, people used condensation as the best indication of high RH.



I'm one of those people who used perlite terrariums for years & years and no, we used hygrometers as the best indication of high RH.

And yes, what Ryche wrote is incorrect.




almost as if hygrometers were around long before the pftek and such......:rolleyes:


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: Pinback]
    #11206219 - 10/08/09 09:42 AM (12 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Pinback said:
Assume a vessel wall temperature of 20 �C. This means the saturation vapour pressure at the wall surface is 17.54 torr. Any air from the inside of the vessel having a higher vapour pressure, and cooling to the wall temperature, will cause condensation on the wall. If the vessel air temperature is 21 �C, the saturation vapour pressure is 18.65 torr. So if condensation forms in my example, it is known the vapour pressure is at least 17.54 torr, with a maximum of 18.65 torr. This means that the relative humidity is at least 17.54/18.65*100 = 94%.

Adjust the above with real temperatures. :smirk:




:thumbup::thumbup:


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: anonjon]
    #11206419 - 10/08/09 10:47 AM (12 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

anonjon said:
You're right Roger, it is 5th grade science and I don't understand how you can continue to use the same inapplicable examples even after I thoroughly debunk them.

This is nothing like the condensation on a glass from the fridge.

1. The inside of the fridge is colder than the outside whereas in the terrarium the opposite is true.

2. The temperature differential in the terrarium's case is much smaller than the fridge.

3. You can observe the condensation without opening the terrarium. You aren't causing a sudden drastic temperature differential like you are by removing the beer from the fridge.

It just doesn't apply.




1. The inside of the fridge is colder than the outside whereas in the terrarium the opposite is true.
The beer from the fridge gets condensation on the warm side of the temp differential.  The beer is cold, the air touching the can is warm, thus condensation forms on the warm side of the differential, JUST LIKE in a terrarium where the condensation forms on the warm side.  It's the exact same principle.

2. The temperature differential in the terrarium's case is much smaller than the fridge. 
Correct.

3. You can observe the condensation without opening the terrarium. You aren't causing a sudden drastic temperature differential like you are by removing the beer from the fridge.
Speed of temp change is not a factor.  When air cools to the dewpoint, condensation will form whether or not it happened fast of slow.

This has gotten completely childish and ridiculous. If you want to argue, take it to OTD.  If you have a valid point to make that's founded in science, then make it with science to back up your claims.  A few others have chimed in to tell you how to determine dew point, how it's reached, and what happens when it is.  You're arguing the indefensible point that condensation on the walls is an indicator of high humidity in a terrarium, which it is not, regardless of who has made the same mistake before.  My terrariums are all sitting at 95% or greater, and not one of them has a single drop of condensation on the walls.  However, I can take a sealed-up rubbermaid, put perlite and substrates in it, and shortly after I turn on the light overhead, condensation will form on the sides.  Why? Temperature differential-It's warmer inside the terrarium than outside.

I strongly suggest any new growers to purchase a few analog hygrometers and calibrate them properly via the damp towel method weekly.  Furthermore, discussions like this one give the impression to new growers that humidity is the most important factor in growing mushrooms, which it isn't.
RR


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11206680 - 10/08/09 11:54 AM (12 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:

This has gotten completely childish and ridiculous.  If you have a valid point to make that's founded in science, then make it with science to back up your claims.




It's not childish. I did make a solid argument backed up by science. Please tell my how my original post was incorrect.

Quote:

A few others have chimed in to tell you how to determine dew point, how it's reached, and what happens when it is.  You're arguing the indefensible point that condensation on the walls is an indicator of high humidity in a terrarium, which it is not, regardless of who has made the same mistake before.




Other's have also chimed in explaining how I am correct, explaining the relationship between RH, condensation, and dewpoint. These are related concepts.

Quote:

My terrariums are all sitting at 95% or greater, and not one of them has a single drop of condensation on the walls.




Yes, I don't know how many times I have to concede this point to you. The absence of condensation is not an indicator of rh, period. You are absolutely correct.

Quote:


However, I can take a sealed-up rubbermaid, put perlite and substrates in it, and shortly after I turn on the light overhead, condensation will form on the sides.  Why? Temperature differential-It's warmer inside the terrarium than outside.




This is why Ryche Hawk recommends you check condensation when the fc has been under stable conditions. Yes, condensation is cause by a temperature differential. We are not arguing that point. But RH is also related to temperature changes over time.

Quote:


I strongly suggest any new growers to purchase a few analog hygrometers and calibrate them properly via the damp towel method weekly.




I concur. I have one. I am using your shotgun terrariums. Thank you for inventing it. It works very well. Pinning is much better than in the sealed terrariums I've used in the past.

Quote:

Furthermore, discussions like this one give the impression to new growers that humidity is the most important factor in growing mushrooms, which it isn't.




The only thing this thread does, is debate a single scientific phenomena in an abstract way. The best advice for any grower is to have a hygrometer. I think we have established that.

Quote:

If you want to argue, take it to OTD.




This is not an off-topic discussion. The advice on condensation observation is from The Shroomery tek section, from a very well known and established mycologist. It is directly related to cultivation.

The fact remains that when you walk into your grow area, and see condensation on the walls of your terrarium, it is because the air is reaching a saturation point where water is unable to evaporate. Or in other words there is a high relative humidity. Yes the condensation is caused by a temperature differential. But RH is directly related to temperature differentials, as I explain very thoroughly and scientifically in the very first post of this thread. Because the temperature differential and the air volume of the terrrarium are very small, it is very reasonable to assume that the entire volume of the terrarium has a high relative humidity.

Quote:

You're arguing the indefensible point that condensation on the walls is an indicator of high humidity in a terrarium, which it is not,




How is it your place to tell me that my position on a particular esoteric debate is indefensible. I am entitled to make my case, as you are entitled to make yours. We do not have to agree.


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: Herbal_Elixer]
    #11206708 - 10/08/09 12:02 PM (12 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Herbal_Elixer said:





This shows why you are both right.
The RH near the condensing surface approaches 100% humidity, yes.
But,
That's an asymptotic curve. Humidity a few millimeters from the surface can be much less, and it says nothing about the tub as a whole.


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: anonjon]
    #11206726 - 10/08/09 12:05 PM (12 years, 18 days ago)

^Thanks.. that's why I showed that.. from a scientific stand point, it just cannot be a predictor of the whole situation, it is but one piece to be considered.

"The absence of condensation is not an indicator of rh, period. You are absolutely correct."

If anything, this statement right here.. to which we all agree.. is why we shouldn't be pushing this. You will have new growers over saturating and second guessing by reading this.. why? (which is also why I will stay on the side of that quote you took from Hawk being bad information, and again he only said it if you are absent of a hygrometer in a need to know now situation, then proceeds to tell you how to shop for one) If your trying to prove that condensation can mean high RH.. well yes, it is possible under certain circumstances.. but to proclaim that by using this method "makes your face a valid hygrometer" is incorrect.. again simply pointing to the above statement.

I hate to argue, and I am really trying not to.. but I just do not see the reasoning for pushing this.


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: Doc_T]
    #11206741 - 10/08/09 12:08 PM (12 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Doc_T said: Humidity a few millimeters from the surface can be much less, and it says nothing about the tub as a whole.




The greater the temperature differential, the more this is true. With very small differentials, I would expect this gap to be much much larger than a few millimeters.


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: Herbal_Elixer]
    #11206767 - 10/08/09 12:12 PM (12 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Herbal_Elixer said:
^Thanks.. that's why I showed that.. from a scientific stand point, it just cannot be a predictor of the whole situation, it is but one piece to be considered.

"The absence of condensation is not an indicator of rh, period. You are absolutely correct."

If anything, this statement right here.. to which we all agree.. is why we shouldn't be pushing this. You will have new growers over saturating and second guessing by reading this.. why? (which is also why I will stay on the side of that quote you took from Hawk being bad information, and again he only said it if you are absent of a hygrometer in a need to know now situation, then proceeds to tell you how to shop for one) If your trying to prove that condensation can mean high RH.. well yes, it is possible under certain circumstances.. but to proclaim that by using this method "makes your face a valid hygrometer" is incorrect.. again simply pointing to the above statement.

I hate to argue, and I am really trying not to.. but I just do not see the reasoning for pushing this.




I did concede these points that you make. I'm not pushing the face hygrometer method. I'm just debating a very specific point because I find it interesting.


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: anonjon]
    #11206775 - 10/08/09 12:13 PM (12 years, 18 days ago)

:popcorn:  Wow, someone needs to take a physics class.  It's admirable to fight for something you believe in, but the information is out there; in physics text books.  Sometimes even I feel in my gut that condensation = high humidity, but as much as I love the Colbert Report, I'm not gonna sacrifice the truth for what I feel.  Your arguments have not been logical and your running on your gut feelings.  This is such an elementary concept... kinda gives shroomerites a bad impression of being totally  mindless and unable to comprehend a HS physics lesson.  Keep fighting the good fight, but be careful about coming of like an expert and leading noobs down the wrong path.


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: anonjon]
    #11206812 - 10/08/09 12:18 PM (12 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

anonjon said:
Quote:

Doc_T said: Humidity a few millimeters from the surface can be much less, and it says nothing about the tub as a whole.




The greater the temperature differential, the more this is true. With very small differentials, I would expect this gap to be much much larger than a few millimeters.





Well, again to that point, and applying it to our situations (using tubs).. that effect can be seen in many grows where the center of the substrate is producing much less than the outer edges.. also shown in side pinning and bottom pinning of cakes on perlite.. where humidity is more favorable.. then you can see the reverse where humidity is right on throughout the FC's and huge bulks are found throughout. I am not saying these effects can be negated by use of a hygrometer either.. it would depend where you are taking the measurement, but it does show how the difference can occur in our situation (which is all that matters here).. and if you agree to that, then you must agree that the sides can condensate, but there is a different story within the bulk of the tub.


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: Infea]
    #11206854 - 10/08/09 12:26 PM (12 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Infea said: Sometimes even I feel in my gut that condensation = high humidity,




straw target


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: anonjon]
    #11206872 - 10/08/09 12:28 PM (12 years, 18 days ago)

:facepalm:


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: Herbal_Elixer]
    #11206900 - 10/08/09 12:33 PM (12 years, 18 days ago)

There is also a paper I saw yesterday that shows condensation in itself, while being the result of 100-105% humidity, has significantly removed moisture from the surrounding air... which is another thing to consider.

If you add the effect of even what you state "very small differentials" away from the condensing surface (which is also shown in morning fog, it only goes so high), then you add this new effect, you are beginning to involve a lot of factors that can conclude various results.. again depending on environment size, temperature, and temperature fluctuation throughout the environments atmosphere... I think you are arguing that there are differentials.. but they are minimal and that a condensing surface is at 100-105% rh, and since we are talking about a limited size environment that the amount of change cannot be that great into the FC itself.. correct? I see that point/idea.. but again, multiple grows on here have shown even in these micro environments that their are differentials occurring, and I think that by using the outer condensing surface as a sole indicator is just too far out from the concentration of that environment.


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: anonjon]
    #11206937 - 10/08/09 12:40 PM (12 years, 18 days ago)

alot of these theories would probably be plausible IF we all grew in climate controlled labs.


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: cyb3rtr0n]
    #11206952 - 10/08/09 12:43 PM (12 years, 18 days ago)

true


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: Herbal_Elixer]
    #11207593 - 10/08/09 02:31 PM (12 years, 18 days ago)

I think condensation (besides the actual definition) in a tub means  it hit dew point and hasnt evaporated the water off the walls yet.:shrug:


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Edited by 13shrooms (10/08/09 02:58 PM)


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: 13shrooms]
    #11207636 - 10/08/09 02:40 PM (12 years, 18 days ago)

read a science book


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: eisenhower]
    #11207741 - 10/08/09 02:57 PM (12 years, 18 days ago)

Im currently reading a quantum physics book right now called "Spontaneous Evolution".  great book!:stoned:

link is in my sig if you want to read a good book.:thumbup:


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: 13shrooms]
    #11236500 - 10/13/09 12:09 AM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Have you ever seen a good chef use a measuring spoon or cup? 

Geese!  What is so difficult to understand!  You don't need perfect RH, only ball-park RH, give or take 10%.  If you can nail that you are fine.

If you know your environment (Temp, humidity, and pressure ((offset from sea-level)) you can feel and SEE RH close enough to grow a damn shroom.  I’ve been doing it for nearly two years.  I only use a gauge when experimenting.  Sure, it’s not as perfect as a hygrometer but close enough to grow mushrooms.  This is not brain surgery.  It's pretty damn easy actually.


So yes, for the sake of mushrooms, if you are half way attentive to your environment it is a no brainer.  Your face can be a hygrometer; a pretty damn good one.  It's that easy!

:foreheadslap:


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: cloudsaregathering]
    #11236700 - 10/13/09 12:41 AM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

cloudsaregathering said:
you know what who gives a fuck I have never used a thing-a-maggiger and my shit does mighty fine so bleh...



:thumbup:
My thoughts exactly


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: cne9999]
    #11242170 - 10/13/09 10:12 PM (12 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

cne9999 said:
Have you ever seen a good chef use a measuring spoon or cup? 

Geese!  What is so difficult to understand!  You don't need perfect RH, only ball-park RH, give or take 10%.  If you can nail that you are fine.

If you know your environment (Temp, humidity, and pressure ((offset from sea-level)) you can feel and SEE RH close enough to grow a damn shroom.  I�ve been doing it for nearly two years.  I only use a gauge when experimenting.  Sure, it�s not as perfect as a hygrometer but close enough to grow mushrooms.  This is not brain surgery.  It's pretty damn easy actually.


So yes, for the sake of mushrooms, if you are half way attentive to your environment it is a no brainer.  Your face can be a hygrometer; a pretty damn good one.  It's that easy!

:foreheadslap:




I'm a red seal chef, and one who's worked in alot of good restraunts; and I use measuring devices for weight, volume, temp, starch content, water content, etc.
It's what makes me a PROFESSIONAL, versus a line cook thinking he can cook a Kobe beef wellington with nothing more then the power of his awesomeness and his farts alight. (Oh of course I can whip one together just fine, but if I want it the exact same every time for every service then you measure)

Yea, it GENERALLY doesn't matter, but in this case it does, as that's what we're trying to determine.
Mushrooms can be grown in a mason jar with no reading of temp, humidity, or anything else.
You can fuck up the BRF/verm ratio, and they'll still grow.
Hell, you can keep a contam cake, and still get a shroom off it.
Doesn't make it more professional just cause you're managing to mickey mouse your way around the problem.
But you over lime, or add WAY too much/little water, and you're boned.

Try making a meringue with some oil in the bowl, see how that works for you. (for those who don't know, less then a single drop of oil collapses a whole meringue)

Or cooking sugar till the sides start to crackle, you think you hit the right ball stage and then pour it out, but alas it's just a TOUCH too cool, unless you've been growing for some time you won't know.

RR and Agar are some of the only faces I would trust to be my hygrometer, and you know why? cause they'd probably have calibrated analog hygrometers in their pockets just in case =P (well...maybe not agar, he may wing it cause he's awesome, but RR would <3)

Some things DO matter enough to be precise about it.


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Edited by Ingrimus (10/13/09 10:18 PM)


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: Ingrimus]
    #11242211 - 10/13/09 10:17 PM (12 years, 13 days ago)

even if they only matter because we're making them matter in this exact thread (personally I just wing it 90% of the time) cause I'm not worried about having the perfect shrooms every single time.


--------------------
"Don't attempt to stifle his experimentation because you have a hardon for me." -RogerRabbit

LEARN TENACITY - HAVE PATIENCE.
WITHOUT IT - YOU WILL NOT SUCCEED AT THIS HOBBY.
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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: Ingrimus]
    #11242213 - 10/13/09 10:17 PM (12 years, 13 days ago)

i agree and i have come up with a way

check it out
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11241796


--------------------
some people just don't get it:spank:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11241796
so here is a video or two or three for you guys:rolleyes:


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: ratdog]
    #11242251 - 10/13/09 10:22 PM (12 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

ratdog said:
i agree and i have come up with a way

check it out
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11241796




Lotta work, still pretty freakin cool man, props.


--------------------
"Don't attempt to stifle his experimentation because you have a hardon for me." -RogerRabbit

LEARN TENACITY - HAVE PATIENCE.
WITHOUT IT - YOU WILL NOT SUCCEED AT THIS HOBBY.
-Agar

THIS SHIT IS MAGICAL TRIPSTALMETH STOP JUDGEMENTING ON MY HABITS


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: Ingrimus]
    #12065992 - 02/20/10 05:12 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

bump bump


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: bill1102inf]
    #12066530 - 02/20/10 06:42 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

You guys need to quit arguing this point.  It's already been beat to death way too many times.

Condensation is in fact an excellent indicator of humidity if you know the temperature variables or control them in some manner.

Condensation happens at the "dew point".  This is used both in science and meteorology and is the absolute gold standard in humidity measurement.

The most expensive $10,000 humidity and moisture content meters use a chilled mirror to measure the dew point, which is then used to calculate the RH.  This is in fact the most accurate method known to measure humidity.


Nice measurement method BTW ratdog.  +5 :mushroom2:


-FF


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: fastfred]
    #12066809 - 02/20/10 07:41 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

:omg:  :plzdie:  :epenis:


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: Projekt]
    #12067569 - 02/20/10 09:59 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Yes pls. Lock it up. Fastfred put a nice cap on it.


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: anonjon]
    #12069574 - 02/21/10 07:38 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

thanks for the comp fred


--------------------
some people just don't get it:spank:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11241796
so here is a video or two or three for you guys:rolleyes:


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: anonjon]
    #12069583 - 02/21/10 07:46 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

what , was this guy serious when he wrote all this shit down, i got to reading little bits here n there to realise that someone is actually willing to waste his time on god damn condensation, i saw the word fridge somewhere in there.

go fuck someone, or something and get it out of your system


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: fastfred]
    #12069789 - 02/21/10 10:05 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
You guys need to quit arguing this point.  It's already been beat to death way too many times.

Condensation is in fact an excellent indicator of humidity if you know the temperature variables or control them in some manner.

Condensation happens at the "dew point".  This is used both in science and meteorology and is the absolute gold standard in humidity measurement.
-FF




Exactly.

However, the problem isn't those with a science background trying to wing it without a hygrometer, it's the know it all noob trying to say there's plenty of humidity because someone has condensation on the sides of a terrarium.  However, he may still have no mushrooms because he has no air exchange, which just happens to be the number 1 pinning trigger.

I can put a sealed terrarium and a shotgun terrarium side by side on a table and the sealed one will have condensation, but the shotgun won't, even though it's at a higher RH than the sealed tub.  The point is, to get an accurate measure of humidity, you need something besides just the condensation on the walls of the terrarium.  Mushroom substrates create heat, which causes an increased temp differential, which then results in the sides of the terrarium reaching the dew point.  However, this has nothing to do with whether the humidity and fresh air supply within is correct for cultivation, especially in a house where the owner turns the heat down at night.

Most of the 'I don't have any humidity because I can't see condensation' threads are from people using a shotgun terrarium, which will NOT have condensation on the walls, even at 100% humidity.
RR


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #12070851 - 02/21/10 02:54 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Roger close it now? Seems a logical place to end it.

Not all know-it-all noobs take themselves too seriously btw. We just tend to enjoy arguing.


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Edited by anonjon (02/21/10 02:56 PM)


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #12070917 - 02/21/10 03:07 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
However, the problem isn't those with a science background trying to wing it without a hygrometer, it's the know it all noob trying to say there's plenty of humidity because someone has condensation on the sides of a terrarium.




Quite right!

Check out...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dew_point

The way to calculate RH from dew point is:
RH = 100 - 5(T - Td)

Quote:

For every 1 °C difference in the dew point and dry bulb temperatures, the relative humidity decreases by 5%, starting with RH=100% when the dew point equals the dry bulb temperature.




Quote:

For example, a relative humidity of 100% means dew point is same as air temp. For 90% RH dew point is 3 degrees Fahrenheit lower than air temp. For every 10 percent lower, dew point drops 3 °F.




What does all this mean?

Well if you've got condensation and your temp difference between the air in the chamber and the walls is 3F you know your RH is 90%.

So if you have a draft free room with a good thermostat and your chambers aren't near the heater then condensation should usually mean +90% humidity.  In a good room you can probably get close to 2F or less temp swings, so your RH will be around 95% if you're getting condensation.

A lot of people won't be able to keep their temp that constant though!  Many people will have temp swings of +-6F and all condensation is going to mean is that the RH is over 80%.

The myc will generate some of it's own heat also, and can itself generate a 1-2F temperature differential.

So for many people condensation will not be a good indicator.  But if you have a clue it can be as useful as any other method.


-FF


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Re: Is condensation an indicator of high Rh? Is my face a hygrometer? [Re: fastfred]
    #12071512 - 02/21/10 05:02 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

fastfred said:
You guys need to quit arguing this point.  It's already been beat to death way too many times.

Condensation is in fact an excellent indicator of humidity if you know the temperature variables or control them in some manner.

Condensation happens at the "dew point".  This is used both in science and meteorology and is the absolute gold standard in humidity measurement.
-FF


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Exactly.


So for many people condensation will not be a good indicator.  But if you have a clue it can be as useful as any other method.


<<<<<<<<<<<.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

so what does this have to do with your face??

only thing i figure is its like walking from 76 deg F house to a -10 deg F outside and all the moisture is sucked from your nose hairs and they poke the inside of you nose as they stiffen and shrink.


--------------------
some people just don't get it:spank:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11241796
so here is a video or two or three for you guys:rolleyes:


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