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Offlinezzripz
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Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions
    #11135765 - 09/27/09 08:13 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

So at last I do this. I have been wabting to explore this for several weeks (maybe more). I have recently re-read a great book called Sacred Mushroom of Visions: Teonanacatl, edited by Ralph Metzner. This book has inspired me SO much because it has really educated and empowered my knowledge about the sacredness and potential for healing of magic mushrooms.
My favourite part of the book is the latter part where a diverse collection of mushroom experiences intentionally for healing are recounted in very exciting descriptive and inspiring ways. The ones I am most attracted to are the Goddess, and Pagan oriented ones.

I had re-read the book on holiday and returning to my computer I was eager to see if I could find more info about mushrooms and healing so I Googled those terms, and very first link was this one: Account of Mushroom Healing Ritual with Maria Sabina and Don Pablo

On reading this article, which includes an interview with Mazatec curandero, Don Pablo I was struck by the strong emphasis on Catholic symbolism and beliefs! And this made me wonder about a few things.

I am a curious kind of person--an inquisitive nature. And I love to ask questions. I think the internet is great for this because in a spur of a moment you can quickly email someone, even someone famous with a question. So it is or SHOULD be, an excellent interconnetor for exploring reality. However, if someone goes all taboo and quiet on ya what are you to do? This seems...seems...to be what has happened to me. IF I am wrong and these people eventually get back to me I will admit I am wrong, but at the moment I feel/sense that what I am asking is somehow taboo. Ie., questioning Mazatec 'shamanism'. But the more I sense a taboo area, the more determined to explore it I become.

I first contacted Raplh Metzner with this email. I just like to say that over several years I have contacted Metzner asking him this and that and have always received fairly quick, but short/clipped, replies:

Dear Ralph,

I have just come back from a beautiful week by the sea, and chose as a book to re- read, Sacred Mushroom of Visions: Teonanacatl, edited by yourself. The book is SO powerful. It is actually my favourite book because it actually shares ways to intend healing magic mushroom trips!

When I got back to my computer, I had wanted to ask you if there were any other books specifically about psychedelic mushrooms/psilocybin you might recommend, especially peoples reports about their experiences,  and then I just did a Google search and found this article as first link:
Account of Mushroom Healing Ritual with Maria Sabina and Don Pablo
Not meaning any disrespect to the late Maria Sabina, nor the other Curendero, Don Pablo, the author mentions, but I do however squirm a bit with their Christian symbolism and patriarchal beliefs observations and demands.

Particularly, Don Pablo warns that sexuality is "utter materialism" and mustn't be in anyway part of the 'sacred', and suggests that shapeshifting into animals is 'brujo' territory. So what is going on here?

On one level, yes we can be sure that telepathy, etc, and healing will authentically take place, but with this comes the dogmatism that has plagued us with the patriarchy which surely is NOT healing...?

I am contacting you about this because I know you are  a great scholar of Goddess mythology and religion, and in that stream sexuality is very sacred, and there is no sense of division between matter and spirituality.

In Sacred Mushroom the trip reports I am most deeply attracted to are the more pagan ones. And the ones with humour, with the sense that very humour is the healing medicine also. This sense seems to be missing from Mazatec 'shamanism' which seemingly over emphasizes the Christian ethic?

I am therefore wondering Ralph your feelings you may have about what I mention here, and if any other authors/speakers have explored about this?

In my blog http://intothefaerywoods.blogspot.com ; I am trying to explore this, but of course really need support to explore this in more depth...

Peace

So, I waited and got no reply, then I thought I would ask Daniel Pinchbeck. As with metzner, I have been in contact with Daniel before and have always received replies, so I emailed him a similar inquiry:

HI Daniel,

I have currently been re-reading the great book edited by Ralph Metzner called Sacred Mushroom of Visions: Teonanacatl

I particularly love the section towars the end where there's trip reports of people who have taken magic mushrooms for various forms of healing. The ones I am particularly drawn to are the Goddess oritented, pagan ones, and ones open to advanced technology as part of a sacred intelligence

I had reread the book (nearly finished) when on holiday in a beautiful place, and on return to my computer throught I'd contact Metzner to see if he would compile another book which more focussed on sacred mushrooms healing (this is more specific for my experience because unlike Ayahuasca, I can fairly easily pick mushrooms in their season, and have experience with them)

I Googled the terms 'sacred mushrooms and healing' and first link--which I also had read before but forgotten--was this one, about Maria Sabina and Don Pablo
Account of Mushroom Healing Ritual with Maria Sabina and Don Pablo

As you can easily see, Mazatec 'shamanism' is strongly influenced by the Catholic Church. Ie., by the patriarchy! So when I read about it, I am immersed in complex mixed views.

On one hand I have enormous respect for the fact this very anceint sacred mushroom religion was 'discovered' by Wasson in the 1950s, and for Maria Sabina--the whole amazing story. But on the other hand I have a many questions also.  I am  coming  more from a Goddess pagan orientation so it jars with me when Don Pablo talks about'God' the 'Devil' 'Hell' and that sexuality is 'utterly materialistic'.

I have no doubt these people are humble, poor, and offer healing free---or FAR more cheaper than many western healers are prone to--and are part of a long tradition with its own part Indigenous roots. And I am sure they are powerful healers. ....But they still do emphasize the patriarchal Christian imagery and beliefs don't they, and I have found that patriarchal beliefs in themselves are not healing generally speaking. So you have the paradox of healing and not-healing.
For if one is led to believe sexuality is somehow averse to spirituality you are creating a scenario of guilt and shame and fear about...sexuality, and the myth that matter is separate to spirit, and this patriarchal idea fostered by Churchian dogma is oppositional to Goddess understanding that sexuality is sacred, and that there is no separation between matter and spirit!
I am exploring about the expropriation of Goddessian understanding and use of psychedelics at my blog, and in my research I found a fascinating and sad thing; that it is rare women/feminists will explore this area! YES, there have been many great female authors and speakers over the years that have de-contructed patriarchal thinking, etc, but it is extremely rare for they also to include the psychedelics in their analysis even though in real history it is women who would have been closest to the sacred plants!
In my blog I put this question to Feminist Goddess scholar Anne Baring and she agrees with me that women, still terribly traumatized from the era of the Catholic Inquisition still feel oppressed from speaking about psychedelic healing!!

So Daniel, the reason for getting in touch with you is to ask if you know of any other authors who explore the patriarchal influence on Mazatac 'shamanism'. I could do with as much sources as possible for an intended post I may post on my blog regarding these questions

Kind Regards

I also had found this guy's blog where he was very into Maria Sabina, and I sent him a brief note about what had happened and he told me to ask my questions, and then HE didn't reply:sherlock:

And to CAP it all, I was in contact with a pagan-sounding member of these forums and mentioned this and asked for their thoughts and s/he has ignored me.....:crazy2:

Hmmmm so whats going on here? Is THIS thread gonna get same treatment? We will see :flowers:  :flowers:

I hope you stick with this because all I am trying to do for myself and others is empower.
Please read that article above, and tell me how you feel. Particularly about Don Pablo and his warnings about sexuality being 'utterly materialistic' and divided from the 'sacred'.
of course I am aware that pronography,and mindless promiscuous sexuality is detrimental, but he doesn't say that. he --like the Catholic church dogma with its guilt-inducing dogma of 'Original Sin' seems to suggest that ALl sexuality is not sacred. Whereas in Goddess and pagan beliefs sexuality is sacred.
And Don Pablo talks about the 'Devil' and 'Hell' both patriarchal inventions. How do you feel about that? Is that healing overall would you say? Ie., you could get some healing for a specific condition, but is the overall message coming from the healer generally healing is what I am wondering about.

Eariler on I was thinking about shamanism, and its relation to priesthood, and modern psychiatrists. hear me out:

In shamanism the shaman will often be an intermediary between you and the 'spirit world'. S/he might claim that an 'evil spirit' or 'brujo' or 'witch' has caused you disease. And then is the ritual to try resolve this.

With the Christian priest was the warning of the Devil, and his demons, and hell, and that the priest--as intermediary--would pray for you to save your soul. In fact, as awful as it is, in the Catholic Inquisition where they tortured, and killed many people, mostly women, they believed (so they said) that their doing this was 'for their own good'. That in some sick way they were trying to save their souls from eternal damanation.

In modern times we have NOT the shaman or the priest but the psychiatrist, and psychologist, who do not believe in evil spirits, the Devil, or Hell. This is the ritual: you may not feel 'right' psychologically (psychosomatically) so you go to the doctor, and either s/he and/or a shrink your sent to will diagnose you with 'mental illness' and advise that you need to go on 'medication' to resolve it, and in some cases ECT, etc.
So what is happening here? Well they are the authority who are there to 'help' you, BUT the very culture where you are distressed in is a major distressing factor for various reasons. Horrible surroundings, cut off from nature and community, suffering abuse from school, parents, peers, etc etc.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: zzripz]
    #11137040 - 09/27/09 02:24 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

OMG...told you it was taboo. Even the Shroomery dont wanna touch it :hotidea:  :hotidea:  :hotidea:  :sissies:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: zzripz]
    #11137097 - 09/27/09 02:35 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Ummm, maybe because it's too long and fluffy? Maybe because, from the few lines I read, it doesn't seem to make much sense?
Try to rephrase the whole thing to something consistently shorter and rational. :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #11138020 - 09/27/09 05:59 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

:crazy2:

I am perfect;y clear what I said and dont need to change anything. It is clear that like Ralph and Danny and the other dude noone wants to go near this?
I find this odd and un-creative--also conformist and boring


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Offlinecyb3rtr0n
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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: zzripz]
    #11138278 - 09/27/09 06:50 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

please tailor your post to each individuals preferred reading style next time you have an idea that consists of something longer than a sentence or two.:wink:

I did read the post. but I got lost trying to find something I remember reading about in an art history book.  It had something to do with a person in the coliseum of Rome.  this person/character eventually gave rise to the notion of satin/the devil as Christianity knows it today.  I still cant find any info on it, but at the time it was eye opening. he was a mayter of death somehow after gladiator fights... 

as a matter of fact... you can learn allot about religious origins from art history.  You can see the evolution of ideas. 

throughout history groups claiming to be the "right" way have tried to wipe off differing beliefs by doing things like book/scroll burnings, war, etc..

sorry, but that's where I lost track in trying to add to the discussion in this thread.


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OfflineTheBalance
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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: zzripz]
    #11138354 - 09/27/09 07:00 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

You should research John Marco Allegro's work.

The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross
is an awesome read.

All about Christianity's psychedelic(A. Musc)/fertility cult/linguistic heritage.

Something very unmushroomy about a once mushroomy story, imo.

Career suicide/assassination much.

:ooo:


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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: zzripz]
    #11141051 - 09/28/09 02:16 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

On one level, yes we can be sure that telepathy, etc, and healing will authentically take place,




Not so little brother. What we CAN be sure of is that people will misinterpret their experiences to bolster belief in ESP - and yet can never demonstrate it.

We go through this nonsense here year after year.


--------------------


Edited by OrgoneConclusion (09/28/09 03:50 PM)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #11141092 - 09/28/09 02:22 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Ummm, maybe because it's too long and fluffy? Maybe because, from the few lines I read, it doesn't seem to make much sense?
Try to rephrase the whole thing to something consistently shorter and rational. :shrug:




You sure are a harsh taskmaster. :dominatrix:


--------------------


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: TheBalance]
    #11141912 - 09/28/09 07:39 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

TheBalance said:
You should research John Marco Allegro's work.

The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross
is an awesome read.

All about Christianity's psychedelic(A. Musc)/fertility cult/linguistic heritage.

Something very unmushroomy about a once mushroomy story, imo.

Career suicide/assassination much.

:ooo:




Read it?? I most likely got that book before you were born, which is errrrm about late 1970s early 80s--a paperback version. I've read it so many times pages are falling out of it. One of the most life changing books ever read!

If you checkout my blog--in the article titled The Patriarchal  Expropriatation of the Sacred Fruit of the Goddess, I give my (I think) unique view about the meaning of the secret Christian psychedleic mushroom cult

I am glad this thread has got some interest at last :wink:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: zzripz]
    #11142145 - 09/28/09 09:37 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah, we were all dying to find out which of you two was born first! :lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineTheBalance
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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: zzripz]
    #11142356 - 09/28/09 10:58 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Right on man.

Do you think the taboos/beliefs/ideals/fears are imposed inventions or reflective of the territory unlocked by initiation?


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: zzripz]
    #11142548 - 09/28/09 11:47 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

TheBalance said:
You should research John Marco Allegro's work.

The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross
is an awesome read.

All about Christianity's psychedelic(A. Musc)/fertility cult/linguistic heritage.

Something very unmushroomy about a once mushroomy story, imo.

Career suicide/assassination much.

:ooo:






Read it?? I most likely got that book before you were born, which is errrrm about late 1970s early 80s--a paperback version. I've read it so many times pages are falling out of it. One of the most life changing books ever read!

If you checkout my blog--in the article titled The Patriarchal  Expropriatation of the Sacred Fruit of the Goddess, I give my (I think) unique view about the meaning of the secret Christian psychedleic mushroom cult

I am glad this thread has got some interest at last :wink:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

On one level, yes we can be sure that telepathy, etc, and healing will authentically take place,




Not so little brother. What we CAN be sure of is that people will misintepret their experiences to bolster belief in ESP - and yet can never demonstrate it.

We go through this nonsense here year after year.



Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

On one level, yes we can be sure that telepathy, etc, and healing will authentically take place,




Not so little brother. What we CAN be sure of is that people will misintepret their experiences to bolster belief in ESP - and yet can never demonstrate it.

We go through this nonsense here year after year.



Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

On one level, yes we can be sure that telepathy, etc, and healing will authentically take place,




Not so little brother. What we CAN be sure of is that people will misintepret their experiences to bolster belief in ESP - and yet can never demonstrate it.

We go through this nonsense here year after year.




Have you checked out Dean Radin?

So your claiming maria Sabina is lying when she claims to be able to 'see' others' lives? Why would she do that?


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: TheBalance]
    #11142594 - 09/28/09 11:55 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

TheBalance said:
Right on man.

Do you think the taboos/beliefs/ideals/fears are imposed inventions or reflective of the territory unlocked by initiation?




Well I think it is definately Catholic influences. Because just hearing the terminology like 'Devil' and 'Hell' says that loud and clear. And of course the Christian religions worst sin is sex, so Don Pablo claiming that sexuality is not part of the sacred surely must be at least in part influenced by his Catholic indoctrination.

Yet he also claims to have been told all secrets? Would those secrets include warnings about having sex before 5 days cancelling out any healing?

Hmmm. A clue may be when we hear people having NDEs, and they may have an experience that seems to include their already pre-existing ideas about Christian religion. So maybe the Imaginal realm can do that. That if you have pre-existing beliefs it can excacerbate them. But for others it can blow pre-existing sureities apart

what do others think?


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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: zzripz]
    #11143916 - 09/28/09 03:58 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

So your claiming maria Sabina is lying when she claims to be able to 'see' others' lives? Why would she do that?




Have the mushrooms driven you mad? Seeing as how I never mentioned Sabina in this thread nor claimed to be a psychologist...

Try reading the Fallacies sticky so you don't come off looking quite so ignorant.


--------------------


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11144981 - 09/28/09 06:39 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

... :lolsy: your SO funny. Keep it up



I am all for empowering. I am not THAt carazy on that word cause it sounds a bit iffy--a bit like New Age self-management , but I never hear much critique about shamanism. And there is a tendency to call all indigenous healers, including western healers 'shamans' when really that term belongs to Siberia where it originates

So there is some kind of romantic mystique about that word I am aware of all over psychedelicica land, and New Age

As far as I know Maria Sabina was a curandera, and the males like Don Pablo are curanderos.


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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: zzripz]
    #11145526 - 09/28/09 08:19 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

What is truly funny is that you would look to Pinchbeck for advice. His entire first book is a rehash of psychedelic lore with one original chapter. He believed that taking DPT made strange bugs appear in his silverware (and not in his head).

Loons of a feather, I guess...


--------------------


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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11148258 - 09/29/09 04:20 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Just because I asked advice from him doesn't mean he's my guru. I dont agree with him on his New Age Rudolf Steiner trip for a big one. But I just thought I'd see what his response would be in regards my question, and its been S I L E N C E, which doesn't impress me


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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: zzripz]
    #11148716 - 09/29/09 08:05 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

With the way you fabricated stuff in your response to me, I can see why. :yesnod:


--------------------


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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11150845 - 09/29/09 04:26 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

what did i fabricate?


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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: zzripz]
    #11151033 - 09/29/09 04:57 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Particularly, Don Pablo warns that sexuality is "utter materialism" and mustn't be in anyway part of the 'sacred', and suggests that shapeshifting into animals is 'brujo' territory. So what is going on here?

On one level, yes we can be sure that telepathy, etc, and healing will authentically take place, but with this comes the dogmatism that has plagued us with the patriarchy which surely is NOT healing...?




Hah! You think that Christianity is the only system to believe these things? MANY native religions that far predate Christianity have codes all of their own. And yes, many of these ideas mirror other religions. Generally they are passed down in stories, just as Christian principles are. In a modern context, often times to convey concepts, individuals will adjust their terminology to suit what their audience can understand. Particularly when there is a language barrier. The native languages of many tribes carry nuances that English REALLY fails to capture.

Did you ever think that perhaps you're projecting Christianity onto something LARGER than Christianity itself? Something which has been around for longer than you can even comprehend? That the only reason you see similarities, is because the authors knew you'd at least start to understand what they are describing?

Perhaps you are being met with silence because it is something you need to discover yourself. You seem stuck in seeing these rules as dogmatic principles with no use. So much so that you project this view onto these same rules no matter what manner they are presented in. You seem to fail in seeing their utility, and the diversity of situations in which they manifest. You attribute it to a single religious source, Christianity of all to pick from, and I would personally find this quite offensive should I come from a tribal ancestry.


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Edited by Kickle (09/29/09 05:07 PM)


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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: Kickle]
    #11153447 - 09/29/09 11:07 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

'Did you ever think that perhaps you're projecting Christianity onto something LARGER than Christianity itself? Something which has been around for longer than you can even comprehend? That the only reason you see similarities, is because the authors knew you'd at least start to understand what they are describing?'

Nice.:thumbup:


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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: Kickle]
    #11155144 - 09/30/09 04:23 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Do you dispute that Mazatec culture was influenced by Catholic religion? The religion of their 'conquerers', yes or no?


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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: zzripz]
    #11155193 - 09/30/09 04:56 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Every culture that comes into contact with another culture is affected by it. This is unavoidable.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11155442 - 09/30/09 07:46 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I know, but I am talking about the CATHOLIC culture that was the culture of the conquerers!


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: zzripz]
    #11155455 - 09/30/09 07:51 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

"Every" includes the Catholics, does it not?


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11155678 - 09/30/09 09:51 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

are you aware of what the Christian culture did to native peoples?


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: zzripz]
    #11156132 - 09/30/09 12:00 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Do you dispute that Mazatec culture was influenced by Catholic religion? The religion of their 'conquerers', yes or no?




No.
But having read texts from tribal societies that existed prior to any Christian influence, I will say that the themes of good/bad are still pretty clear cut. That if you're bad, you're going to end up in an underworld that isn't going to be pretty. A place where the rulers are tricksters who take pleasure in your pain. And every time there is an underworld, there are certain behaviors which will land you there.

Tribal daily life was inseparable from the religion. It wasn't something they went to church for once a week, it was infused in everything they did. They knew what behaviors were OK to do, and which were not. And just to expand on this idea of no sex, I'll try to broaden the viewpoint from my readings. The Maya spiritual leaders would observe fasting and abstinence from sex as a part of ceremonies and rituals. In doing so, they were provided knowledge that was not given to others... sacred knowledge. So in this way, sex was seen as an impediment to sacred knowledge.

Despite this, these leaders would still have wives. It was simply known that should they be seeking sacred knowledge, they needed to live accordingly. They needed to give penance and honor to their Gods. Depending on what was being sought, the duration varied, lasting anywhere from 1 week to 1 year. You can find themes like this over and over again :shrug:


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: Kickle]
    #11156250 - 09/30/09 12:28 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
Do you dispute that Mazatec culture was influenced by Catholic religion? The religion of their 'conquerers', yes or no?




Quote:

No.
But having read texts from tribal societies that existed prior to any Christian influence, I will say that the themes of good/bad are still pretty clear cut. That if you're bad, you're going to end up in an underworld that isn't going to be pretty. A place where the rulers are tricksters who take pleasure in your pain. And every time there is an underworld, there are certain behaviors which will land you there.




Yes> I am not trying to paint all indigenous people's cultures in a romantic way. This is a great reply we can all learn from and open up the exploration
As faras I am aware the undersworld as a place of punishment comes from male-dominated cultures. Ie., that although patriarchal cultures can be seen clearly to be in the big religions there also are strong elements of male-dominant tribal cultures where women are treated badly. and often are not allowed to partake of sacred plants!
In Goddess mythology however, the 'underworld/Death' is her Womb--a place of healing and regeneration. There is no separation between nature/matter and spirit


Quote:

Tribal daily life was inseparable from the religion. It wasn't something they went to church for once a week, it was infused in everything they did. They knew what behaviors were OK to do, and which were not. And just to expand on this idea of no sex, I'll try to broaden the viewpoint from my readings. The Maya spiritual leaders would observe fasting and abstinence from sex as a part of ceremonies and rituals. In doing so, they were provided knowledge that was not given to others... sacred knowledge. So in this way, sex was seen as an impediment to sacred knowledge.





I would say the Mayan civilization was very warrior-based and sacrifical based right?

"MYTHOLOGICAL GODS

The ancient Maya had a complex pantheon of deities whom they worshipped and offered human sacrifices. Rulers were believed to be descendants of the Mayan gods and their blood was the ideal sacrifice, either through personal bloodletting or the sacrifice of captives of royal blood.

The Maya vision of the universe is divided into multiple levels, above and below earth, positioned within the four directions of north, south, east and west. After death, the soul was believed to go to the Underworld, Xibalba (shee bal bah), a place of fright where sinister gods tested and tricked their unfortunate visitors."

Quote:

Despite this, these leaders would still have wives. It was simply known that should they be seeking sacred knowledge, they needed to live accordingly. They needed to give penance and honor to their Gods. Depending on what was being sought, the duration varied, lasting anywhere from 1 week to 1 year. You can find themes like this over and over again :shrug:




So your really saying that the Mazatec culture although invaded by Christian culture yet found affinity with it? Shared values --such as the bloody sacrifice of 'Jesus', the warnings of sexuality being 'Original Sin', of women being under men, and 'Devil' and 'hell' being also familiar?

This is why I like to question all this and go deeperner. How deep dya wanna go?


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: zzripz]
    #11156406 - 09/30/09 01:01 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:


I would say the Mayan civilization was very warrior-based and sacrifical based right?




Hmm... I'm mixed on this. They definitely had their sacrifices, but it seems to have been a way of preventing fighting more than anything. There are stories of warriors, but they are 4 warriors against many, in which the 4 are aided by a God who collects what is rightfully his.

Quote:


"MYTHOLOGICAL GODS

The ancient Maya had a complex pantheon of deities whom they worshipped and offered human sacrifices. Rulers were believed to be descendants of the Mayan gods and their blood was the ideal sacrifice, either through personal bloodletting or the sacrifice of captives of royal blood.

The Maya vision of the universe is divided into multiple levels, above and below earth, positioned within the four directions of north, south, east and west. After death, the soul was believed to go to the Underworld, Xibalba (shee bal bah), a place of fright where sinister gods tested and tricked their unfortunate visitors."




Some of this is right, but most of it is lacking in details. For instance, there was a direct lineage from the first human beings, yes. They have stories back to the very first humans, and then to those who are descended from them, what their deeds were, and so forth. The line is carefully tracked and recorded. As a ruler, you are expected to participate in the Ball Game, which if you lose, you die. Royalty faces royalty in a game to the death. This kept warfare from occurring, because after you defeat the oppositions royalty, you claim what was theirs.

Upon defeating another royal, you did sacrifice their heart or head, but it was not a sacrifice so much as repayment of what already belonged to the God. I made another post about the stories of reincarnation which were deeply rooted in this culture as well. I believe that the royals were willing to engage in this game of life or death, because death didn't hold the meaning it does for us. This takes us to the next part of that... Xibalba.

In the creation story, Xibalba was all but destroyed. Humans no longer go to Xibalba, unless they violate certain behavioral rules. The hero twins of myth destroyed Xibalba and condemned them to only sacrifices of animal blood and tree sap. No longer would they feast on humans. The underworld was defeated in a Jesus-esque way with a descent and resurrection. This underworld needed to be defeated so that not everyone need suffer it, but rather, only those who were deserving.

Quote:


So your really saying that the Mazatec culture although invaded by Christian culture yet found affinity with it? Shared values --such as the bloody sacrifice of 'Jesus', the warnings of sexuality being 'Original Sin', of women being under men, and 'Devil' and 'hell' being also familiar?




Most likely they shared quite a bit. The Mayans too were overrun by Christianity and forced to destroy everything they had, build churches, and start attending. When building the churches, they would carve their history into the structure and claim that it made them feel more at home. After all, their writing looked like pictures to most. They preserved what they could, found commonality in places that didn't violate their beliefs, and gained a new set of terminology to explain the metaphor of life.


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: Kickle]
    #11156671 - 09/30/09 01:58 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Found this too

Mexican Mythology:"Mexico's mythology, like its population, reflects a blend of Native American and Spanish influences. Most people in modern Mexico trace their ancestry to Native Americans, to the Spanish who controlled Mexico for three centuries, or to both, in a mixed-race heritage called mestizo. In the same way, Mexican religion, myths, and legends are a blend of Indian traditions, European influences such as Christianity, and mixtures of the two. The Maya Indian villagers believe, for example, that the chacs, ancient rain spirits, are controlled by Jesus Christ and accompanied in their movement across the skies by the Virgin Mary, his mother. Mexican mythology is a product of syncretism—a process in which two belief systems merge to form one that is different from either of the original systems or in which a new belief system overlies an older one that has not disappeared."

So what does all this mean for how we understand Mazatec 'shamanism' and sacred mushroom healing?


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: zzripz]
    #11157221 - 09/30/09 03:29 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I don't know squat about Mazatec shamanism, and I'm sure that none but those initiated into those customs do. It's a selective knowledge, one which chooses to let you know it, not one that you choose to know. Everything I have said about the Maya people is historical only. I don't know their rituals or what powers those rituals conferred onto the people who performed them. I don't know how to gain secret knowledge, only what not to do. There are glimpses of the whole, but it's a mistake to assume those glimpses provide the same outcome. Often times that knowledge is incredibly guarded, for in the wrong hands it can do serious damage. Be wary of anyone who claims to know hidden knowledge, for hidden knowledge is given to those who undergo a screening of sorts. Those who show promise to carry on the traditions and customs, and telling the secrets to outsiders is not a quality that is likely to be possessed by such an individual.

What does it mean? You decide.


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinecyb3rtr0n
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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11157363 - 09/30/09 03:58 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Every culture that comes into contact with another culture is affected by it. This is unavoidable.



There are cultures that haven't come in contact with others cultures and still show similarities. some of them have to do with shamanism


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