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OfflineTheBalance
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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: Kickle]
    #11153447 - 09/29/09 11:07 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

'Did you ever think that perhaps you're projecting Christianity onto something LARGER than Christianity itself? Something which has been around for longer than you can even comprehend? That the only reason you see similarities, is because the authors knew you'd at least start to understand what they are describing?'

Nice.:thumbup:


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: Kickle]
    #11155144 - 09/30/09 04:23 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Do you dispute that Mazatec culture was influenced by Catholic religion? The religion of their 'conquerers', yes or no?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: zzripz]
    #11155193 - 09/30/09 04:56 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Every culture that comes into contact with another culture is affected by it. This is unavoidable.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11155442 - 09/30/09 07:46 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I know, but I am talking about the CATHOLIC culture that was the culture of the conquerers!


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: zzripz]
    #11155455 - 09/30/09 07:51 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

"Every" includes the Catholics, does it not?


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11155678 - 09/30/09 09:51 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

are you aware of what the Christian culture did to native peoples?


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: zzripz]
    #11156132 - 09/30/09 12:00 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Do you dispute that Mazatec culture was influenced by Catholic religion? The religion of their 'conquerers', yes or no?




No.
But having read texts from tribal societies that existed prior to any Christian influence, I will say that the themes of good/bad are still pretty clear cut. That if you're bad, you're going to end up in an underworld that isn't going to be pretty. A place where the rulers are tricksters who take pleasure in your pain. And every time there is an underworld, there are certain behaviors which will land you there.

Tribal daily life was inseparable from the religion. It wasn't something they went to church for once a week, it was infused in everything they did. They knew what behaviors were OK to do, and which were not. And just to expand on this idea of no sex, I'll try to broaden the viewpoint from my readings. The Maya spiritual leaders would observe fasting and abstinence from sex as a part of ceremonies and rituals. In doing so, they were provided knowledge that was not given to others... sacred knowledge. So in this way, sex was seen as an impediment to sacred knowledge.

Despite this, these leaders would still have wives. It was simply known that should they be seeking sacred knowledge, they needed to live accordingly. They needed to give penance and honor to their Gods. Depending on what was being sought, the duration varied, lasting anywhere from 1 week to 1 year. You can find themes like this over and over again :shrug:


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: Kickle]
    #11156250 - 09/30/09 12:28 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
Do you dispute that Mazatec culture was influenced by Catholic religion? The religion of their 'conquerers', yes or no?




Quote:

No.
But having read texts from tribal societies that existed prior to any Christian influence, I will say that the themes of good/bad are still pretty clear cut. That if you're bad, you're going to end up in an underworld that isn't going to be pretty. A place where the rulers are tricksters who take pleasure in your pain. And every time there is an underworld, there are certain behaviors which will land you there.




Yes> I am not trying to paint all indigenous people's cultures in a romantic way. This is a great reply we can all learn from and open up the exploration
As faras I am aware the undersworld as a place of punishment comes from male-dominated cultures. Ie., that although patriarchal cultures can be seen clearly to be in the big religions there also are strong elements of male-dominant tribal cultures where women are treated badly. and often are not allowed to partake of sacred plants!
In Goddess mythology however, the 'underworld/Death' is her Womb--a place of healing and regeneration. There is no separation between nature/matter and spirit


Quote:

Tribal daily life was inseparable from the religion. It wasn't something they went to church for once a week, it was infused in everything they did. They knew what behaviors were OK to do, and which were not. And just to expand on this idea of no sex, I'll try to broaden the viewpoint from my readings. The Maya spiritual leaders would observe fasting and abstinence from sex as a part of ceremonies and rituals. In doing so, they were provided knowledge that was not given to others... sacred knowledge. So in this way, sex was seen as an impediment to sacred knowledge.





I would say the Mayan civilization was very warrior-based and sacrifical based right?

"MYTHOLOGICAL GODS

The ancient Maya had a complex pantheon of deities whom they worshipped and offered human sacrifices. Rulers were believed to be descendants of the Mayan gods and their blood was the ideal sacrifice, either through personal bloodletting or the sacrifice of captives of royal blood.

The Maya vision of the universe is divided into multiple levels, above and below earth, positioned within the four directions of north, south, east and west. After death, the soul was believed to go to the Underworld, Xibalba (shee bal bah), a place of fright where sinister gods tested and tricked their unfortunate visitors."

Quote:

Despite this, these leaders would still have wives. It was simply known that should they be seeking sacred knowledge, they needed to live accordingly. They needed to give penance and honor to their Gods. Depending on what was being sought, the duration varied, lasting anywhere from 1 week to 1 year. You can find themes like this over and over again :shrug:




So your really saying that the Mazatec culture although invaded by Christian culture yet found affinity with it? Shared values --such as the bloody sacrifice of 'Jesus', the warnings of sexuality being 'Original Sin', of women being under men, and 'Devil' and 'hell' being also familiar?

This is why I like to question all this and go deeperner. How deep dya wanna go?


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: zzripz]
    #11156406 - 09/30/09 01:01 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


I would say the Mayan civilization was very warrior-based and sacrifical based right?




Hmm... I'm mixed on this. They definitely had their sacrifices, but it seems to have been a way of preventing fighting more than anything. There are stories of warriors, but they are 4 warriors against many, in which the 4 are aided by a God who collects what is rightfully his.

Quote:


"MYTHOLOGICAL GODS

The ancient Maya had a complex pantheon of deities whom they worshipped and offered human sacrifices. Rulers were believed to be descendants of the Mayan gods and their blood was the ideal sacrifice, either through personal bloodletting or the sacrifice of captives of royal blood.

The Maya vision of the universe is divided into multiple levels, above and below earth, positioned within the four directions of north, south, east and west. After death, the soul was believed to go to the Underworld, Xibalba (shee bal bah), a place of fright where sinister gods tested and tricked their unfortunate visitors."




Some of this is right, but most of it is lacking in details. For instance, there was a direct lineage from the first human beings, yes. They have stories back to the very first humans, and then to those who are descended from them, what their deeds were, and so forth. The line is carefully tracked and recorded. As a ruler, you are expected to participate in the Ball Game, which if you lose, you die. Royalty faces royalty in a game to the death. This kept warfare from occurring, because after you defeat the oppositions royalty, you claim what was theirs.

Upon defeating another royal, you did sacrifice their heart or head, but it was not a sacrifice so much as repayment of what already belonged to the God. I made another post about the stories of reincarnation which were deeply rooted in this culture as well. I believe that the royals were willing to engage in this game of life or death, because death didn't hold the meaning it does for us. This takes us to the next part of that... Xibalba.

In the creation story, Xibalba was all but destroyed. Humans no longer go to Xibalba, unless they violate certain behavioral rules. The hero twins of myth destroyed Xibalba and condemned them to only sacrifices of animal blood and tree sap. No longer would they feast on humans. The underworld was defeated in a Jesus-esque way with a descent and resurrection. This underworld needed to be defeated so that not everyone need suffer it, but rather, only those who were deserving.

Quote:


So your really saying that the Mazatec culture although invaded by Christian culture yet found affinity with it? Shared values --such as the bloody sacrifice of 'Jesus', the warnings of sexuality being 'Original Sin', of women being under men, and 'Devil' and 'hell' being also familiar?




Most likely they shared quite a bit. The Mayans too were overrun by Christianity and forced to destroy everything they had, build churches, and start attending. When building the churches, they would carve their history into the structure and claim that it made them feel more at home. After all, their writing looked like pictures to most. They preserved what they could, found commonality in places that didn't violate their beliefs, and gained a new set of terminology to explain the metaphor of life.


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: Kickle]
    #11156671 - 09/30/09 01:58 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Found this too

Mexican Mythology:"Mexico's mythology, like its population, reflects a blend of Native American and Spanish influences. Most people in modern Mexico trace their ancestry to Native Americans, to the Spanish who controlled Mexico for three centuries, or to both, in a mixed-race heritage called mestizo. In the same way, Mexican religion, myths, and legends are a blend of Indian traditions, European influences such as Christianity, and mixtures of the two. The Maya Indian villagers believe, for example, that the chacs, ancient rain spirits, are controlled by Jesus Christ and accompanied in their movement across the skies by the Virgin Mary, his mother. Mexican mythology is a product of syncretism—a process in which two belief systems merge to form one that is different from either of the original systems or in which a new belief system overlies an older one that has not disappeared."

So what does all this mean for how we understand Mazatec 'shamanism' and sacred mushroom healing?


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: zzripz]
    #11157221 - 09/30/09 03:29 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I don't know squat about Mazatec shamanism, and I'm sure that none but those initiated into those customs do. It's a selective knowledge, one which chooses to let you know it, not one that you choose to know. Everything I have said about the Maya people is historical only. I don't know their rituals or what powers those rituals conferred onto the people who performed them. I don't know how to gain secret knowledge, only what not to do. There are glimpses of the whole, but it's a mistake to assume those glimpses provide the same outcome. Often times that knowledge is incredibly guarded, for in the wrong hands it can do serious damage. Be wary of anyone who claims to know hidden knowledge, for hidden knowledge is given to those who undergo a screening of sorts. Those who show promise to carry on the traditions and customs, and telling the secrets to outsiders is not a quality that is likely to be possessed by such an individual.

What does it mean? You decide.


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinecyb3rtr0n
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Re: Catholic Influences on Mazatec Shamanism, and Taboo Questions [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11157363 - 09/30/09 03:58 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Every culture that comes into contact with another culture is affected by it. This is unavoidable.



There are cultures that haven't come in contact with others cultures and still show similarities. some of them have to do with shamanism


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