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LitCloset
hypochondriac
Registered: 04/01/09
Posts: 632
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
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Pan. species and strain taxonomy / characteristic confusion
#11111822 - 09/23/09 10:48 AM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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so im currentley lucky enough to be choosing one addition to my Pan sp. collection. i currentley have some pan cyans from hawaii and Florida. im having problems deciding on what to get next.
the problem im having is, not only are there various strains of each pan species but also completley different species. and the taxonomy is very confusing.
cambos are pan cyan variety cambo right? or are they Pan. cambodginiensis ? there is also the cube cambo but i obviously dont mean those.
what are some opinions on the differences between species? i have yet to read of a noticable or consistant potency difference. the goliaths seems to be the largest. but the goliaths confuse me as well. is goliath a species of pan cyan or is it a pan sub (?) or pan cam (?). sorry those may not be the right species abbreviations but im obviously confused.
i cant find a solid post that covers the basics that im asking about. if anyone knows of one i have simply missed in my searches, please let me know.
thanks all
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LitCloset
hypochondriac
Registered: 04/01/09
Posts: 632
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Re: Pan. species and strain taxonomy / characteristic confusion [Re: LitCloset]
#11112034 - 09/23/09 11:21 AM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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ok i guess i post what i find in my searches here:
Pan. Suphanburi is the Goliath strain. -Monstermitch
so the goliath strain is actually a species and not a strain of pan cyan like i thought. its a strain or variety of the species Pan suphanburi. right?
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badman
Registered: 06/14/06
Posts: 4,039
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Re: Pan. species and strain taxonomy / characteristic confusion [Re: LitCloset]
#11112038 - 09/23/09 11:22 AM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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Pan cambo refers to cambodginiensis not the cyan Cambodian strain.
That goliath look badboy dont it. I always thought it was a cambodginiensis strain but im not to sure.
As for potency out of cyan and cambo i preferred cambo but each to their own.
Theres also Pan bis
EDIT: check this tho it is a bit confusin http://sporeworks.com/store/search.php?mode=search&page=1
Edited by badman (09/24/09 12:12 PM)
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Workman
1999 Spore War Veteran
Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 3,603
Loc: Oregon, USA
Last seen: 1 hour, 58 minutes
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Re: Pan. species and strain taxonomy / characteristic confusion [Re: LitCloset]
#11112819 - 09/23/09 01:55 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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I can try to clear some of this up.
Goliath is an isolate from a single specimen of P. cambodginiensis from Suphanburi, Thailand that produces large mushrooms in culture. This doesn't mean all Suphanburi Panaeolus spores on the market are Goliath or even P. cambodginiensis since John Allen recently collected and provided to certain vendors wild prints from the same area. These could be a mix of species and haven't been carefully examined.
Copelandian taxonomy is a real mess, but I've attempted to clarify what distinguishes one species from the next in the link below.
http://sporeworks.com/store/product.php?productid=16351&cat=0&page=1
-------------------- Research funded by the patrons of The Spore Works Exotic Spore Supply My Instagram Reinvesting 25% of Sales Towards Basic Research and Species Identification
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LitCloset
hypochondriac
Registered: 04/01/09
Posts: 632
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Re: Pan. species and strain taxonomy / characteristic confusion [Re: Workman]
#11113792 - 09/23/09 04:38 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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workman! if there is an expert on the subject its you, i cant thank you enough for chiming in!
ill check out the link and go from there. thanks!
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badman
Registered: 06/14/06
Posts: 4,039
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Re: Pan. species and strain taxonomy / characteristic confusion [Re: LitCloset]
#11118886 - 09/24/09 12:29 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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Is the taxonomy a mess because micro and macroscopic properties are used to determine different species as opposed to DNA?
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Workman
1999 Spore War Veteran
Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 3,603
Loc: Oregon, USA
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Re: Pan. species and strain taxonomy / characteristic confusion [Re: badman]
#11119013 - 09/24/09 12:55 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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That is a big part of it. But also the descriptions of features that determine one species from another are not exactly clear. It doesn't help that the main monographs are in French and German. I'm working on a clear guide to the active Panaeolus.
-------------------- Research funded by the patrons of The Spore Works Exotic Spore Supply My Instagram Reinvesting 25% of Sales Towards Basic Research and Species Identification
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badman
Registered: 06/14/06
Posts: 4,039
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Re: Pan. species and strain taxonomy / characteristic confusion [Re: Workman]
#11119058 - 09/24/09 01:03 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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Seen seen.
Urgh French, German not bad tho.
Can't wait to see the guide, a sticky Pan species thread, one is needed desperately.
Why not use the DNA for taxonomy it will give highly accurate results or is it down to funding issues?
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LitCloset
hypochondriac
Registered: 04/01/09
Posts: 632
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Re: Pan. species and strain taxonomy / characteristic confusion [Re: badman]
#11119350 - 09/24/09 01:55 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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id be wiling to do some pcr work. let me know what i can do
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badman
Registered: 06/14/06
Posts: 4,039
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Re: Pan. species and strain taxonomy / characteristic confusion [Re: LitCloset]
#11119378 - 09/24/09 01:58 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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PCR, you joker
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spacel0rd
anarchohippienerd
Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 210
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Re: Pan. species and strain taxonomy / characteristic confusion [Re: badman]
#11119382 - 09/24/09 01:59 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'm sure there'd be people here who would do quick and dirty translations of German/French texts if they are not too long
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LitCloset
hypochondriac
Registered: 04/01/09
Posts: 632
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Re: Pan. species and strain taxonomy / characteristic confusion [Re: spacel0rd]
#11120063 - 09/24/09 03:53 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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no for real, i am a senior at a university in cell and molec bio / chem. if you had samples you wanted me to extract from digest etc and run gels for i would. its just a matter of knowing what genes are unique between the species or at least which ones should be amplified and digested. just a simple dna extract ampl, digest then a agarose gel would give results with out even knowing what the genes are. im sure that someone has done research on the digest and the genes to amplify.
im sure there are verified samples out there.
either way the huge amount of confusion out there has got to be fixed. im getting a goliath print soon but its being called a pan cyan strain. so i have no idea what im actually getting. once things are a little more sorted out a sticky should be created
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badman
Registered: 06/14/06
Posts: 4,039
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Re: Pan. species and strain taxonomy / characteristic confusion [Re: LitCloset]
#11120136 - 09/24/09 04:05 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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To differentiate species wouldnt a chromosome count it be easier than PCR?
To do what you said surely youll need man power and the higher powers at your uni may not allow you. Mapping the genome of the actives would be amazing tho.
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LitCloset
hypochondriac
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Re: Pan. species and strain taxonomy / characteristic confusion [Re: badman]
#11120510 - 09/24/09 05:01 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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you wouldnt have to map the genome. but yeah it would be difficult to get the dea permit etc since i would be working with drug containing mushrooms "containers"
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badman
Registered: 06/14/06
Posts: 4,039
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Re: Pan. species and strain taxonomy / characteristic confusion [Re: LitCloset]
#11120819 - 09/24/09 06:07 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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It would still be cool may find some useful protes
Could you do a chromosome count easier?
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LitCloset
hypochondriac
Registered: 04/01/09
Posts: 632
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
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Re: Pan. species and strain taxonomy / characteristic confusion [Re: badman]
#11120923 - 09/24/09 06:25 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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im not sure if they are different between the species. but if so it wouldnt be too difficult. there are various methods, including microscope and stain
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badman
Registered: 06/14/06
Posts: 4,039
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Re: Pan. species and strain taxonomy / characteristic confusion [Re: LitCloset]
#11120952 - 09/24/09 06:30 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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I was asking you personally if it would be easier LOL
But they should be different if not in number the size of the chromosomes.
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nightflyer
Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 392
Loc: Central Europe
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Re: Pan. species and strain taxonomy / characteristic confusion [Re: Workman]
#11122533 - 09/24/09 10:30 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Workman said: It doesn't help that the main monographs are in French and German. I'm working on a clear guide to the active Panaeolus.
If I can help to translate, just PM me.
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LitCloset
hypochondriac
Registered: 04/01/09
Posts: 632
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
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Re: Pan. species and strain taxonomy / characteristic confusion [Re: nightflyer]
#11123110 - 09/25/09 12:07 AM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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i have to look around for a book that covers the molecular differences between the species. all this stuff i read about spore size and related just doesnt satisfy me.
anyone know of a good book or article that describes genetic and other molecular differences between the species?
i think that chromosome numbering may be the cheapest and easiest way to go if its different between the species. i just cant find anything
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nightflyer
Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 392
Loc: Central Europe
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Re: Pan. species and strain taxonomy / characteristic confusion [Re: LitCloset]
#11123309 - 09/25/09 12:47 AM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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Edited by nightflyer (09/25/09 07:26 AM)
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