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 Noteworthy
Sophyphile
Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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 Why Capitalism 
#11111289 - 09/23/09 08:00 AM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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A lot of angst is pointed to Capitalism, despite the fact that we live in such a plentiful world because of it. It is true that this plentifulness is not spread around equally. But is that a problem with Capitalism, or a problem with the particular Capitalists in power and the decisions they have made?
In a society, you need people's energies to be going towards eachother. People need to help others and together the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
In capitalism, the only way you can help yourself is by helping others. In order to get money (legitimately) you must help others, and they will pay you. With this money you can achieve your well being (and then extra, in our case), which is supported by the things that other people do. You only have a house, street, electricity, fridge, corner store, police cars, gasoline and television because a bunch of other people have made it so. And they have made it so, because it benefits them directly to do so, thanks to the social structure they have found themselves in.
If you are extremely poor it means that you cannot convince anyone that your service is needed. This is in large part the responsibility of society to fix. It would probably not be that hard, if it wasnt for the fact that so many people who have the power to do something are sucking from the teet. Capitalism works in many ways, but I think that there is room for more creativity in society. The creation of new social systems. This sort of thing cannot merely be implemented, it is something that brews over many years. If we want a society that benefits everyone more, we need to start experimenting, and growing new social systems.
But of course, we are in a capitalist world and thus we are obliged to earn money for what we are doing. This obligation must be put aside if any sort of change was to occur. You cannot expect to be able to make money off insidious change. Much of capitalism works well, but for it to work for everyone, it requires that people become informed, and feel proud to do what they are doing. People's needs can be met if, somehow, they can find themselves in a situation where their own effort can help others. As it is, a lot of people's effort is channeled into the benefit of few wealthy people, while they spend it on luxuries. A lot of poor people have no place but to help rich people by doing crappy jobs that no one wants to do, like make sport shoes. Or gather diamonds.
In order to help developing nations, we would have to help them help themselves. Teach them to fish, so to speak. However, most methods in the past have involved selling them technical equiptment and management methods with money that has been loaned inappropriately. These methods and tools are designed for our own economic climates and consumerist systems. They are based on constant demand and auxiliary markets. Such methods and tools may not be appropriate for developing nations.
It is like a beach fisher trying to inform a pond fisher how to fish - whilst selling them heavy duty rods and flies and forgetting to give them a floater.
Capitalism needs to be organised. It does not have to be controlled, but its pieces need to be set up. The 'invisible hand' works, but it only works when a system of gives and takes is made possible. The invisible hand is not 'spreading' wealth to the poor. Sometimes people need to organise themselves in such a way to allow the invisible hand to work for everyone. Sometimes the only people who can do this are those who could be spending their time much more productively by simply submitting to the system in place.
Essentially, everyone needs to find a place in society, to help society and earn what society provides. This can be done by working. If we want luxury lifestlyes that are promoted in magazines, we ought to work harder than poor people who just need to scrape by! So in the end, everyone needs a job. The question is not about whether capitalism is good or bad. The question should be pointed at the CAPITALISTS!
PS. I dont think the poor should or will ever go away. People ought to work for their utopia, and deserve it. This is not to say that all or most poor people deserve what they get. But some of them do, and they may as well remain to be poor.
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 Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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This thread is beneath you. Maybe
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile
Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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Care to elabourate?
Is it my post script that you think is low?
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Edited by Noteworthy (09/23/09 10:13 PM)
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laserpig
Weedmaster_P
Registered: 04/28/09
Posts: 7,468
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
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Capitalism has served its purpose. Now that efficient resource production is possible, we need to move on to a fairer ideology.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
Noteworthy said:
PS. I dont think the poor should or will ever go away. People ought to work for their utopia, and deserve it. This is not to say that all or most poor people deserve what they get. But some of them do, and they may as well remain to be poor.
What do you mean by poor? I certainly don't think that everyone should make the same amount of money, but I also don't think anyone should have to go without food, clothing or shelter. I also think the levels of inequality we have today are poisonous to democracy.
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Quote:
What do you mean by poor?
That can sure be a complex question. I think lacking the necessities you mention would certainly constitute as poor. But merely being on one end of a large wealth inequality is not sufficient. If the rich suddenly got twice as rich, but my energy food and luxury consumption stayed the same I would not have gotten any poorer. For this reason I think the only thing people really have against wealth inequality is jealousy (if those basic needs you mention are filled).
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
What do you mean by poor?
That can sure be a complex question. I think lacking the necessities you mention would constitute as poor. But merely being on one end of a large wealth inequality is not sufficient. If the rich suddenly got twice as rich, but my energy food and luxury consumption stayed the same I would not have gotten any poorer. For this reason I think the only thing people really have against wealth inequality is jealousy (if those basic needs you mention are filled).
I remember Amartya Sen described poverty as a state of lacking the means to participate in the basic institutions of society. So even if one has the basics required for survival, it could still be considered poverty if they don't have access to certain non-luxury technologies which are considered necessities for participation in that society. For example, an American would be poor if they can't afford a phone.
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mikebart101
Bromden
Registered: 08/01/06
Posts: 619
Loc: New England
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
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Re: Why Capitalism [Re: laserpig]
#11117453 - 09/24/09 03:46 AM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
laserpig said:
Capitalism has served its purpose. Now that efficient resource production is possible, we need to move on to a fairer ideology.
In a globalized economy, capitalism and communism cannot exist efficiently together. On one hand you have nations (capitalists) that can not directly invest/buy/sell or control any aspect of business abroad; whereas the other nations (communists) are able to do so freely. They are able to buy resources, land, etc. because the gov is the economy.
In my opinion, communism is going to bankrupt capitalism.
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So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile
Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
Quote:
Noteworthy said:
PS. I dont think the poor should or will ever go away. People ought to work for their utopia, and deserve it. This is not to say that all or most poor people deserve what they get. But some of them do, and they may as well remain to be poor.
What do you mean by poor? I certainly don't think that everyone should make the same amount of money, but I also don't think anyone should have to go without food, clothing or shelter. I also think the levels of inequality we have today are poisonous to democracy.
I think that if someone refused to participate in society in any way then they do not deserve the benefits of society and can go hunt wild animals for food, wear discarded clothes, and live in abandoned buildings.
I am not of the opinion that people should be stripped of things they don't deserve but I am of the opinion that they should not be given the things they don't deserve. I think that everyone deserves the right to offer whatever services they have, so I think the most important function that could be improved in global society is ways of finding substantial work for people. Everyone should be given the chance to work for society but those who chose not to, ought to fend for themselves.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
Noteworthy said:
Quote:
Silversoul said:
Quote:
Noteworthy said:
PS. I dont think the poor should or will ever go away. People ought to work for their utopia, and deserve it. This is not to say that all or most poor people deserve what they get. But some of them do, and they may as well remain to be poor.
What do you mean by poor? I certainly don't think that everyone should make the same amount of money, but I also don't think anyone should have to go without food, clothing or shelter. I also think the levels of inequality we have today are poisonous to democracy.
I think that if someone refused to participate in society in any way then they do not deserve the benefits of society and can go hunt wild animals for food, wear discarded clothes, and live in abandoned buildings.
I am not of the opinion that people should be stripped of things they don't deserve but I am of the opinion that they should not be given the things they don't deserve. I think that everyone deserves the right to offer whatever services they have, so I think the most important function that could be improved in global society is ways of finding substantial work for people. Everyone should be given the chance to work for society but those who chose not to, ought to fend for themselves.
I can sort of agree with that. I don't see it as quite as big a problem as some people do, but I certainly don't want a bunch of welfare cheats leeching off of society(though I'm more concerned about parasites at the top, rather than at the bottom). But if we say that they shouldn't expect society's help if they won't work, then we'd damn well better do everything we can to ensure that everyone can find work. Good-paying work, too. I don't think anyone should have to work more than the standard 40 hours to make ends meet. I also wish our society was a bit more generous about maternity leave.
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