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 desiretoheal
Seeker
 
Registered: 08/16/09
Posts: 1,286
Loc: Here
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
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 Re: ughhh..new doctor today  [Re: koraks]
#11106726 - 09/22/09 01:39 PM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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I am talking about the swine flu vaccine, just in case there is any confusion.
http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_18720.cfm
http://www.vacci-nations.com/component/content/article/35-breaking-news/63-washington-post-swine-flu-vaccine-will-contain-mercury
Even the Washington post shows a little skepticism on the reliability of the vaccine.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/22/AR2009082202337.html?sid=ST2009082300274
This is indeed a personal choice but I have heard of many people surviving the flu no problem without any vaccinations. Of course like I said earlier in a post, it is more complicated if you are a child, or elderly. It's just not something I am gonna be waiting in line to get
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If there were no rewards to reap,No loving embrace to see me through
This tedious path I've chosen here,I certainly would've walked away by now.
Gonna wait it out.
If there were no desire to heal The damaged and broken met along
This tedious path I've chosen hereI certainly would've walked away by now.
And I still may ... (sigh) ... I still may.Be patient.
I must keep reminding myself of this.
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 koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,931
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The below all applies to swine flu and its vaccine.
Ok, I looked it up for you. First the mercury thing. The mercury in flu vaccines comes in the form of a preservative called Thimerosal. Its concentration of a mercury-containing molecule is apparently about 49%. However, it is present in vaccines in concentrations between 0.003% and 0.1%. That means that a flu vaccine may contain up to 0.0015% and 0.005% ethylmercury. Note that this does not equal the same percentages of mercury; those numbers would be smaller still. Note that with a typical dosage of 0.5mL, the actual amount of ethylmercury you'd receive is somewhere between 0.00075mL (or 0.75uL) and 0.0025mL (2.5uL).
Source:
Ball LK, Ball R, Pratt RD. An assessment of thimerosal use in childhood vaccines. Pediatrics 2001;107(5):1147-54.
I'm willing to take that risk. Especially since the authors conclude that essentially, there are no risks to the use of a vaccine containing Thimerosal for children and adults. For infants < 6 months, a Thimerosal-free vaccine (these are available today as well and are likely currently replacing the mercury-containing ones) is recommended.
Quote:
desiretoheal said:
Even the Washington post shows a little skepticism on the reliability of the vaccine.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/22/AR2009082202337.html?sid=ST2009082300274
In that source, I mostly read about the political implications of a mass vaccination program. The uncertainty regarding the dosage and number of required vaccinations make sense to me; this is a new vaccine which we haven't tested before. On the other hand, we figured it out to a usable extent for other H1N1 strains, so I'm pretty confident that this particular nut will be cracked as well.
Quote:
This is indeed a personal choice but I have heard of many people surviving the flu no problem without any vaccinations. Of course like I said earlier in a post, it is more complicated if you are a child, or elderly. It's just not something I am gonna be waiting in line to get
The risk of dying is limited to begin with, but note what I wrote earlier about overreacting immune systems. This applies first and foremost to young, healthy individuals. So this time, you're not on the safe side by default.
Edited by koraks (09/22/09 02:10 PM)
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Radar
Stranger
Registered: 06/08/09
Posts: 767
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
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Re: ughhh..new doctor today [Re: koraks]
#11106884 - 09/22/09 02:13 PM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
koraks said:
Also, to the best of my knowledge, the flu vaccine is cultivated on regular chicken eggs. I don't know where any significant concentrations of mercury in the vaccine could come from. I remain open for any reliable information on this issue.
People are worried about the preservative that is used in the larger packaging formats of the injectable vaccine...its being slowly phased out just b/c people have gotten worried about it.
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We have not even to risk the adventure alone, for the heroes of all time have gone before us — the labyrinth is thoroughly known. We have only to follow the thread of the hero path, and where we had thought to find an abomination, we shall find a god; where we had thought to slay another, we shall slay ourselves; where we had thought to travel outward, we shall come to the center of our own existence. And where we had thought to be alone, we shall be with all the world.
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,289
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 4 months, 4 days
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Re: ughhh..new doctor today [Re: Radar]
#11107760 - 09/22/09 05:09 PM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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I feel like I'm back in 1870s France with all of these people claiming vaccines aren't effective and that it's safer not to get them.
The distrust that so many people have of science is both hilarious and frightening at the same time.
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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway
If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy
He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc: 
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said:
I feel like I'm back in 1870s France with all of these people claiming vaccines aren't effective and that it's safer not to get them.
The distrust that so many people have of science is both hilarious and frightening at the same time.
it isn't a distrust of science man
I just don't think I need a vaccine
for what is basically a bad cold
I honestly believe that using a vaccine for the flu
only limits your bodies ability to fight off infection later
Like I said earlier, I have never had a flu vaccine
and I have never been slowed down by the flu
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Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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bosch
Registered: 01/16/09
Posts: 92
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Re: ughhh..new doctor today [Re: niteowl]
#11108967 - 09/22/09 08:38 PM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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Regardless of whether you think the H1N1 vaccine is safe or not, as far as judging whether she's a good doctor or not... You know it's unavailable currently, right? Not FDA approved and all that.
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,289
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 4 months, 4 days
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Re: ughhh..new doctor today [Re: niteowl]
#11108973 - 09/22/09 08:38 PM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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Listen, I think you're wrong.
Even in your case.
But the vast majority of the moonbats here simply don't believe in vaccines.
I think it's pretty clear from reading this thread.
Your case is equally silly. Will you get a rubella vaccine? I bet you gave one to your kids when they were little.
Which do you think kills more people? Rubella or the flu?
I get a flu shot every year. I can't remember the last time I was sick. My case is equally as valid as yours.
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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway
If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy
He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Unparalized
Young Cardinal
Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 327
Loc: USA
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
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Desiretoheal, i suffer from anxiety and have since i was 12. I have been on medicine since i was 16 and imo would suggest you get away from the gen. practitioner and go see a psychiatrist that can write you whatever the hell he wants and not question your reasoning behind mind expansion. Now as for the medical problems, get checked, but don't rely on a Dr. that is seeing 40 patients a day to be "on your side" Its all about the money to them, thats 40 x 200$(at least) = 8K a day....the shrink see's about 7 a day. The math is there, and so are the answers.
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This Is All Just An Echo Of What Has All Ready Happened!
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said:
Your case is equally silly. Will you get a rubella vaccine? I bet you gave one to your kids when they were little.
If they could come up with a flu vaccine that could be taken once
(like the Rubella, small pox, polio and many other 'cured' diseases)
and you could never get the flu again, then yea, I'd go get one
but for a healthy person to get a vaccine for a virus
that would be nothing more than a bad cold for them
is irresponsible IMO, let the young and elderly have them
Healthy adults really do not need a flu vaccine
the public has been duped into believing that they do
OMG!!! I gotta get me one a them there swine flue shotz or I mite dye
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Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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BirdsIView
Mr. Helms
Registered: 07/19/07
Posts: 736
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Re: ughhh..new doctor today [Re: niteowl]
#11109746 - 09/22/09 10:37 PM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm pretty sure I had the swine flu or at least some form of a horrible flu. I got it a few months before the whole swine flu pandemic broke out so I got over it and moved on.
While I agree with you on the fuck a vaccine standpoint, it was far worse than any cold. Woke up at 1AM, proceeded to throw up 6 times that night. All the vomiting caused me to be dehydrated so I'd try to drink water and then immediately throw up again. Managed to go to sleep then woke up in the morning and threw up 2 more times. It was a pretty fucking bad ass virus. My friend who also got sick had to be hospitalized.
Yay for anti-vaccine but don't underestimate the great H1N1 virus
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WakeboardrB
Pepe Silvia
Registered: 05/18/03
Posts: 13,678
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
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Re: ughhh..new doctor today [Re: niteowl]
#11109854 - 09/22/09 10:56 PM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
niteowl said:
Quote:
Madtowntripper said:
Your case is equally silly. Will you get a rubella vaccine? I bet you gave one to your kids when they were little.
If they could come up with a flu vaccine that could be taken once
(like the Rubella, small pox, polio and many other 'cured' diseases)
and you could never get the flu again, then yea, I'd go get one
but for a healthy person to get a vaccine for a virus
that would be nothing more than a bad cold for them
is irresponsible IMO, let the young and elderly have them
Healthy adults really do not need a flu vaccine
the public has been duped into believing that they do
OMG!!! I gotta get me one a them there swine flue shotz or I mite dye
Quote:
niteowl said:
Quote:
Madtowntripper said:
I feel like I'm back in 1870s France with all of these people claiming vaccines aren't effective and that it's safer not to get them.
The distrust that so many people have of science is both hilarious and frightening at the same time.
it isn't a distrust of science man
I just don't think I need a vaccine
for what is basically a bad cold
I honestly believe that using a vaccine for the flu
only limits your bodies ability to fight off infection later
Like I said earlier, I have never had a flu vaccine
and I have never been slowed down by the flu
You've never had the flu, yet you equate it to a "bad cold"?
It's more like having food poisoning, allergy attacks, a really bad cold, a constant migraine disorder and mild alcohol/benzo withdrawal all at once.
Or pretty much the same as a really really bad opiate withdrawal.
So how can you equate it to having a bad cold if you've never experienced it before?
There's a perfectly good reason why people get the influenza vaccine.
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Same thing happened to me when I played Neil Armstrong in Moonshot. They found me in an alley in Burbank trying to re-enter the earth's atmosphere in an old refrigerator box.
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,931
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Re: ughhh..new doctor today [Re: niteowl]
#11110860 - 09/23/09 03:54 AM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
niteowl said:
Healthy adults really do not need a flu vaccine
the public has been duped into believing that they do
The media haven't done a particular good job at transferring complex messages from academia to broader society. Some media systematically overrate any risks, while others appear to systematically ignore them. There are very few media that succeed in conveying a nuanced picture. But who's willing to pay for a newspaper that prints an in-depth analysis of a complex subject? In general, we like to hear clear, simplified statements that either support or own preexisting views or that oppose them in such a way that we may respond in shocked indignation. Fact of the matter is that this subject matter is far too complex to capture in simplified statements. This includes the statement quoted above: "Healthy adults really do not need a flu vaccine". I cannot agree with this, neither can I wholeheartedly oppose to it.
So does that mean healthy adults need a vaccine against this particular flu strain? For one part, we don't know (see below), and for another part, the question cannot be answered in any case. Why can't we answer this question? Simply because it is impossible to clearly define what 'need' is. Some people may argue that any economic damage caused by some people being unable to turn up for work a few days is enough to justify mass vaccination. Others may argue that we've faced worse pandemics and this one probably isn't going to be anywhere quite as bad as the Spanish flu outbreak, so any measures are unnecessary and symptomatic of our society's risk-averse behavior. There's no objective measure that can be applied here, so there's no ultimate truth.
So what do we know? Some strains of the flu have been known to trigger cytokine storms, which in particular endanger young, healthy individuals. The most famous example is th 1918 H1N1 'Spanish flu' outbreak. Remember the photographs of the well-trained, healthy soldiers coughing themselves to a bloody-slimy death? As of yet, we don't know if the swine flu triggers cytokine storms, but it is a possibility that we currently cannot rule out either. Some evidence points in that direction, but reliable quantitative data are mostly lacking. However, if this flu strain proves to be capable of doing so, then it stands to reason that healthy adults in particular are at risk during this outbreak.
So do healthy individuals need a vaccine for this flu? I leave that up to you to decide. But I've stated it before and I'll repeat it once more: this time, healthy adults are not on the safe side of the statistics by default. And even if this swine flu turns out to be an annoyance rather than an actual danger (which, personally, I believe it will), then it is merely a matter of time before we are confronted with an outbreak that does pose a realistic risk to the population at large. All the experience and insight we can accumulate during this 'rehearsal' may come in handy if a really bad bug happens to seek us out in the future.
Or we can just decide that as a society we're not going to give a fuck and see what comes our way. That, of course, is also a legitimate philosophy.
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