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Statisticons_win
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What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law?
#11099554 - 09/21/09 10:36 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Apparently the government has wrested control of the student loan market from the hands of capitalism, and deposited it quite firmly in the Dept of Edu. Is this another Marxist coup?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090917/pl_nm/us_studentloans_house_3
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zappaisgod
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Statisticons_win]
#11099728 - 09/21/09 11:15 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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That coup took place decades ago with Sallie Mae.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Statisticons_win]
#11100327 - 09/21/09 01:14 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hmmm. This keeps student loan interest rates low, transfers tax dollars from big corporations so students so they can receive more aid, saves taxpayers an estimated $50 billion, and it does nothing to stop banks from making student loans. Why is this a bad thing again???
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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zappaisgod
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#11100800 - 09/21/09 02:38 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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How does it save taxpayers $50B? Methinks you might be a tad off there. How could it save taxpayers $5? Why are taxpayers in this business at all?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: zappaisgod]
#11102959 - 09/21/09 08:51 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: How does it save taxpayers $50B? Methinks you might be a tad off there. How could it save taxpayers $5?
It eliminates Government subsidies paid to the "middle man" (big banks), and allows the Government to collect all interest payments.
The Congressional Budget Office actually estimated that this program could save $87 billion, but opponents argued that it would "only" save $47 billion. I took the lower estimate.
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zappaisgod said: Why are taxpayers in this business at all?
Because the majority of Americans currently don't mind helping poor kids get an education.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#11105620 - 09/22/09 09:51 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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> The Congressional Budget Office actually estimated that this program could save $87 billion
... and how much does it currently cost the tax payer? Zappa's point stands, if taxpayer money is going towards college education, then nothing they do saves the taxpayer any money. It simply reduces the cost to the taxpayer.
> Why are taxpayers in this business at all?
Because banks profit when college students enter life as indentured servants with massive loans hanging over their heads. The financial institutions tend to have a large sway with the government due to corrupt politicians and asinine regulations, thus taxpayer money goes towards protecting the racket. The people accept this because they have been convinced that a college education is necessary to succeed in the modern word (rather than learning a trade) and anything to help reduce the cost of that education seems to be a blessing.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Seuss]
#11105684 - 09/22/09 10:08 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: ... and how much does it currently cost the tax payer? Zappa's point stands, if taxpayer money is going towards college education, then nothing they do saves the taxpayer any money. It simply reduces the cost to the taxpayer.
Ok, fair enough. More bang for the buck. Is that a bad thing???
Quote:
Seuss said: > Why are taxpayers in this business at all?
Because banks profit when college students enter life as indentured servants with massive loans hanging over their heads. The financial institutions tend to have a large sway with the government due to corrupt politicians and asinine regulations, thus taxpayer money goes towards protecting the racket. The people accept this because they have been convinced that a college education is necessary to succeed in the modern word (rather than learning a trade) and anything to help reduce the cost of that education seems to be a blessing.
Again, we can agree agree. So why was SAFRA a bad thing again?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#11110978 - 09/23/09 05:17 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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> More bang for the buck. Is that a bad thing???
Yes. Why should I be paying for your kids education? (Please don't give me the song and dance about how someday, when I am older, the younger population will somehow be helping me and that by educating them, I am investing in my own future.)
> So why was SAFRA a bad thing again?
No idea. I'm not really fluent on homosexual issues in the Islamic world.
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The False Diviner
proselytizing fool

Registered: 09/22/09
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Seuss] 1
#11111654 - 09/23/09 10:06 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yes. Why should I be paying for your kids education? (Please don't give me the song and dance about how someday, when I am older, the younger population will somehow be helping me and that by educating them, I am investing in my own future.)
Just a few points of interest here. One, you're not paying for other peoples kids education education. Unless you are making a lot of money your taxes don't cover the amount required to send one kid to college. At best the fact that you pay taxes is only an indication that you are a part of the tax base as opposed to being a tax burden. Secondly, once you pay your taxes it's not your money any more. Yes you have representation in the process but the money is not yours. Thirdly, if you think that education should be a matter of privilege can I assume that you believe that health care, hunger, and civil rights are all a matter of privilege as well.
Back to taxes, their is really only two sides to the coin. You either pay taxes and are part of the contributing tax base, or you don't pay taxes and you are part of the burden on the base. One of the very useful ways of decreasing the burdens and increasing the contributions is through a college education. Education is one of the tools or advantages if you like, that can turn a tax burden into a tax payer. Therefor, this makes the money spent a good investment for our fiscal well being.
Furthermore, if you allow education monies to become dividends for investors you are loosing a portion of the money to those dividends that could be put back into the system. On a global level, if we don't educate our children and young adults we lose the ability to compete on that field of play.
Have a nice day, THe False Diviner
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Seuss]
#11111835 - 09/23/09 10:49 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: Why should I be paying for your kids education? (Please don't give me the song and dance about how someday, when I am older, the younger population will somehow be helping me and that by educating them, I am investing in my own future.)
You're asking a question that's completely irrelevant to the discussion. We've been helping the poor get an education for decades. That's not changing and cutting off aid isn't even under debate. What's changing is that we're now going to do it smarter and more cost effectively. I ask again, what's wrong with that?
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Seuss said: > So why was SAFRA a bad thing again?
No idea. I'm not really fluent on homosexual issues in the Islamic world.
Very funny, but a nice dodge to the question (SAFRA = Student Aid and Fiscal Responsibility Act)
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: The False Diviner]
#11111881 - 09/23/09 10:56 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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> you're not paying for other peoples kids education education
I don't care how you split it, if tax money is going towards college, and I pay taxes, then I am helping to pay for other people's kids college. I might only be paying a fraction of a cent, but it is still money that I earned going towards the benefit of their children.
> can I assume that you believe that health care, hunger, and civil rights are all a matter of privilege as well
College, not education, is what we are discussing; and yes, I believe that college is a matter of privilege. Anybody that has good academic grades from high school can go to college for free through merit based scholarships. As I said in my original post, college has been sold as a "must have to succeed in life" rather than education for the best of the best.
We should be pushing trade school, rather than college, for the majority of people graduating from high school. Professional trades can pay very well and do not create an indentured servant that owes the banking system (because of the obscene loans taken to get through college) the first ten to twenty years of their life.
Anybody can get immediately life saving health care by going to the emergency room regardless of being able to pay or not.
Hunger is unfortunate in the US and shouldn't be an issue. I don't agree with "life time" welfare handouts for people that are too lazy to work, but these aren't really the people that are going hungry. Most of the hungry are homeless, and most of the homeless have mental issues, which makes it a difficult problem to solve.
I'm not sure what you mean by civil rights being a privilege. Everybody, regardless of race, sex, religion, etc, should have equal rights and opportunities. This means no "reverse discrimination" (which is a stupid name- lets face it, discrimination is discrimination), no affirmative action, etc. Equal rights for everybody, period.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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The False Diviner
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Registered: 09/22/09
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Seuss]
#11112936 - 09/23/09 02:19 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Ok, so as you see it there should be no public fund going towards college education because if anyone with good enough grades can get a scholarship to attend college, right? Wrong, that's just not true. My GPA on graduation was a 4.0, and yes I received some scholarship money. Those funds covered about 5% of my college education. If it wasn't for Grants and Student Loans, I would not have been able to attend college. Thankfully, I was able to avoid a large amount of student loans and was able to pay them off rather quickly.
As for the trade schools and trade unions and apprenticeship programs, I would like to point out the fact that trade schools are funded just the same as colleges as for grants and loans. As for the unions, most of them have reduced their apprenticeship acceptance numbers greatly due to the lack of work. As in they can't keep their journeymen working so they have an excess of qualified workers.
Moreover, people with college educations earn at a higher level than those that have no college education. Therefor, your money that is paying for other peoples children to be education, in fact lessens your burden. Every time the tax base grows because someone gains a higher level of education, thus increasing the amount of taxes they pay, your percentage of contribution becomes smaller.
I am suspecting that the reason you are having trouble with this is your " I don't care how you split it " attitude. Hubris is what is coming to mind here. I sense that you are so full of hubris that you can't openly look past your emotion fueled opinion (unhappy with paying for the education of other people's children) to see that this might actually be a good thing for you if you get past emotions.
Not to hijack the tread but....
Conversely, your bit about "Anybody can get immediately life saving health care by going to the emergency room regardless of being able to pay or not" really shows the depth of your hubris. That statement would lead me to believe, that you think health care beyond life or death situations is a matter of privilege, as well. Flatly, I believe until proven otherwise, that every citizen and documented immigrant of the United States has a right to equal health care.
Keep having a nice day,
The False Diviner
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zappaisgod
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: The False Diviner]
#11113159 - 09/23/09 03:00 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
The False Diviner said: Ok, so as you see it there should be no public fund going towards college education because if anyone with good enough grades can get a scholarship to attend college, right? Wrong, that's just not true. My GPA on graduation was a 4.0, and yes I received some scholarship money. Those funds covered about 5% of my college education. If it wasn't for Grants and Student Loans, I would not have been able to attend college. Thankfully, I was able to avoid a large amount of student loans and was able to pay them off rather quickly.
Good for you. Now tell me again about the system that is not broke that the we must fix with increased government intervention.Quote:
As for the trade schools and trade unions and apprenticeship programs, I would like to point out the fact that trade schools are funded just the same as colleges as for grants and loans. As for the unions, most of them have reduced their apprenticeship acceptance numbers greatly due to the lack of work. As in they can't keep their journeymen working so they have an excess of qualified workers.
Trade schools are crap. If you want to learn a trade start working in it as a laborer. You will learn more and make money at the same time. Once there are jobs again, that is.Quote:
Moreover, people with college educations earn at a higher level than those that have no college education. Therefor, your money that is paying for other peoples children to be education, in fact lessens your burden. Every time the tax base grows because someone gains a higher level of education, thus increasing the amount of taxes they pay, your percentage of contribution becomes smaller.
There is no way that the increased income that can statistically be ascribed to a college education will ever come close to generating enough increased taxes to make up for the subsidized education cost. Maybe for doctors and engineers. Social workers and English majors? Not in a million years. Those degrees are a poor investment when considered strictly in financial terms.Quote:
I am suspecting that the reason you are having trouble with this is your " I don't care how you split it " attitude. Hubris is what is coming to mind here. I sense that you are so full of hubris that you can't openly look past your emotion fueled opinion (unhappy with paying for the education of other people's children) to see that this might actually be a good thing for you if you get past emotions.
I don't know what the fuck your babbling about here but there is nothing particularly emotional about not wanting to have more and more of one's hard-earned dollars snatched to be given to others for some nebulous societal benefit. As an FYI, college students are not children. They are adults. Usually pretty stupid adults but that comes with the age.Quote:
Not to hijack the tread but....
Conversely, your bit about "Anybody can get immediately life saving health care by going to the emergency room regardless of being able to pay or not" really shows the depth of your hubris. That statement would lead me to believe, that you think health care beyond life or death situations is a matter of privilege, as well. Flatly, I believe until proven otherwise, that every citizen and documented immigrant of the United States has a right to equal health care.
You have the right to buy health care. I have no obligation to buy it for you. Nor do you have a right to have the best of all possible health care if you can't pay for it. How could everybody possibly have equal health care when doctors nurses and hospitals all have varying degrees of competence? Anything else you think you should have equal, Komrade? Ferrari, maybe? Better house/apt.? Filet mignon instead of ramen?Quote:
Keep having a nice day,
The False Diviner
And you have a nice day, too.
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The False Diviner
proselytizing fool

Registered: 09/22/09
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: zappaisgod]
#11114348 - 09/23/09 05:53 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Dude, I can't say that I find your position to be filled with wisdom. Again, hubris is an accurate description of your behavior. You're so prideful that you cant get beyond you. I'm gathering that you think I'm liberal, socialist, need assistance, or maybe I'm a burden to the tax base and you need to pay my way. Sitting the record straight, I have more than adequate income, served my time in the military, and have earned my way in every aspect. The difference between you and me is a matter of logic. I look at the logic of things and don't react emotionally to anything that doesn't benefit from that emotion. I'm glad that you resorted to the quote it all and insult discourse, just proves my point further. To clarify, you and others that behave like you, are the less fortunate in the equation. You lack the ability to debate intelligently with those that disagree with you. I would like to share a little fact with you that ought to get your blood boiling. Sixty-six percent of all undergraduates received some type of financial aid in 2007–08, according to the Dept. of Education. You're paying for two thirds of all college students to go to college. Two thirds, you should stop paying your taxes all together. I know that when I went to college on your dime, I graduate on the deans list, bought lots of weed and generally degraded the daughters of guys like you in every way imaginable.
Have a wonderful evening, The False Diviner
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: zappaisgod]
#11114942 - 09/23/09 07:11 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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> Trade schools are crap.
The modern corporate versions that are advertised on Sunday morning are, but not all. I'm talking about vocational training, such as nursing school and the like, not the "get a job working as a nurses aid, or a legal assistant, or a ditch digger, or a tree hugger... just send us money and we will forward a certification to you after eight short weeks" kinda crap.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: The False Diviner]
#11115126 - 09/23/09 07:36 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
The False Diviner said: Dude, I can't say that I find your position to be filled with wisdom. I will never be the same. Again, hubris is an accurate description of your behavior. You were actually using that in response to Seuss. By the way, buy another word, OK. You're so prideful that you cant get beyond you. No, I am trying to get beyond you, as in everybody who wants me to buy them shit they didn't earn. I'm gathering that you think I'm liberal, socialist, need assistance, or maybe I'm a burden to the tax base and you need to pay my way. You certainly seem to have some liberal ideas, no? Like equal health care for all regardless of their contribution. Positively Marxian, if you ask me. Sitting the record straight, I have more than adequate income, served my time in the military, and have earned my way in every aspect. The difference between you and me is a matter of logic. I look at the logic of things and don't react emotionally to anything that doesn't benefit from that emotion. My how deliriously pompous of you. Quite hubristic, neh? I'm glad that you resorted to the quote it all and insult discourse, just proves my point further. To clarify, you and others that behave like you, are the less fortunate in the equation. You lack the ability to debate intelligently with those that disagree with you. I would like to share a little fact with you that ought to get your blood boiling. Sixty-six percent of all undergraduates received some type of financial aid in 2007�08, according to the Dept. of Education. You're paying for two thirds of all college students to go to college. Well no. 66% receiving some type of aid does not equal 66% of the total bill, Mr. Spock. Two thirds, you should stop paying your taxes all together. I wish. I know that when I went to college on your dime, I graduate on the deans list, bought lots of weed and generally degraded the daughters of guys like you in every way imaginable. Like I said, I'm happy for ya. Now tell me again why the system that served you so well must be changed, Mr. Spock. By the way, you didn't degrade any daughters of guys like me. If you had you wouldn't be typing.
Have a wonderful evening, The False Diviner
Have a wonderful evening, Mr. Spock
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zappaisgod
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Seuss]
#11115148 - 09/23/09 07:39 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: > Trade schools are crap.
The modern corporate versions that are advertised on Sunday morning are, but not all. I'm talking about vocational training, such as nursing school and the like, not the "get a job working as a nurses aid, or a legal assistant, or a ditch digger, or a tree hugger... just send us money and we will forward a certification to you after eight short weeks" kinda crap.
Nursing school? I didn't even know they had them. I thought it was regular college. Legal assistant too, for that matter. At any rate I thought by trade school you meant, well, trades. Electrician, plumber, that kinda thing.
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The False Diviner
proselytizing fool

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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: zappaisgod]
#11115534 - 09/23/09 09:09 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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We all agree that trade schools are crap, cool.
Like I said, the system did not serve me well. Financial aid paid for roughly 5% of my education. I earned another portion serving in the Army. I took out another 25% in student loans and payed for the rest of it through working close to full time, flipping burgers.
I certainly did not imply that 66% was in anyway representative of the total bill. I clearly stated that 66% of all undergraduates received financial aid. I'm having difficulty understanding how you got from a to b on that one.
Speaking of liberals, socialist and Marxism, the fact of the matter is that less than one third of the countries that have universal health care are identifiable as having a Socialist or Marxist ruling party.
Can you assume that I am a liberal, possibly, but I'll be happy to clear that up for you. I think that people should have to qualify through merit to become parents. When children are born out side this ideal they should be placed with people who qualify as parents, can't have children or would like more. Just like it is illegal to shit out in public, you shouldn't be able to burden the tax base with uncared for children. I think that certain church activities should not be tax exempt as charities due to the act of proselytizing which to me is recruiting. Simply stated that your soup kitchen can be considered charitable as long as it is free from proselytism. I think that religious organizations, cooperations, businesses or any other special interest groups should be totally and unilaterally unrepresented in our government with the exception of the legal branch. The government should represent public interest only and the public interest should be the interest of citizens or documented immigrants only. I don't think I'm liberal at all.
By the way, either in person or behind a keyboard trying to be scary or intimidating isn't going to accomplish anything with me.
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zappaisgod
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: The False Diviner]
#11118231 - 09/24/09 09:54 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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I will address your last first. I wasn't trying to intimidate you or scare you. My daughter is too young for her to have been a member of the group of girls you victimized. By the way, just what was the point of that remark, troll?
What do you mean it didn't serve you well? It seems to me it served you remarkably well. Just what do you think you should be entitled to? Would you like my PIN number?
Children and societal burdens. Although I, too, believe you should have to pass a fitness and means test to reproduce, I also realize that that is a heinous, imposed stricture. Who judges? In China, it's the Party. Here? Nobody and the system actually encourages dependent breeders. Rather than forbid a behavior, I would prefer to stop enabling it. That would go a long way toward extinguishing it. Not completely but at least discourage it.
Marxism/socialism is a continuum open to interpretation. I think the UK is socialist. I assume that is not one of the countries on your list.
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The False Diviner
proselytizing fool

Registered: 09/22/09
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: zappaisgod]
#11118545 - 09/24/09 11:13 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Actually, I've never victimized anyone on the level you're referencing. My encounters with women have and always will be with full consent. There is an absence of victimization when a person exercises choice. I've never been one that has crossed the line with consent and its relation to intoxication. Admittedly , the use of the word degrading was incorrect on my part. I would have been better served to say something like "lots of wild sex".
In regards to the system and how it served me, I would argue that I succeeded on my own merits. I didn't succeed as a result of the small amount of financial aid I received. In fact, it was the rewards for my military service and good fortune that allowed me to succeed. I was fortunate in that I found a job with an employer who supported my studies to the extent of bending his business around those studies. The debt and gratitude I owe lies with that business owner and not the system.
I'm not clear on why you think I have a sense of entitlement. I provide for myself and my family with the fruits of my labor. I'm not going to compare my junk with yours. I'm happy with my junk, and I am in no way envious of yours, so put your ATM card away.
Children and societal burdens. Agreed, a fitness and means system would be ideal. The enforcement of penalties would be heinous to some, I would speculate that the offended would be the culprits in this case. To me the road between enabling and encouraging is short in distance and direct in nature. So on that we disagree, I believe that the system encourages a lot of things through the enabling policies regulating the administration of the programs.
I think that socialism is not an interpretative issue, it can be clearly defined. According to the Socialist Party, the U.K. is not a socialist government "For instance, in the past the Labour Party in Britain was often labeled "socialist". When the Labour Party was in government, people sometimes used to say "We have a socialist government," and even that Britain was socialist. But this was not true. Labour governments did not go beyond the boundaries of capitalism. The country remained capitalist."
Have a Nice Day, The False Diviner
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: The False Diviner]
#11118620 - 09/24/09 11:35 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
The False Diviner said: Actually, I've never victimized anyone on the level you're referencing. My encounters with women have and always will be with full consent. There is an absence of victimization when a person exercises choice. I've never been one that has crossed the line with consent and its relation to intoxication. Admittedly , the use of the word degrading was incorrect on my part. I would have been better served to say something like "lots of wild sex".
Yes. It would have been much less trollish. As posted it exposes you as an asshole, which I'm sure is not what you had in mind. Quite possibly you might find thinking before posting to be a worthwhile standard operating procedure. Or not.Quote:
In regards to the system and how it served me, I would argue that I succeeded on my own merits. I didn't succeed as a result of the small amount of financial aid I received. In fact, it was the rewards for my military service and good fortune that allowed me to succeed. I was fortunate in that I found a job with an employer who supported my studies to the extent of bending his business around those studies. The debt and gratitude I owe lies with that business owner and not the system.
No? The "system" includes the GI bill. It also included that employer and the aid and the loans. Just what do you think was outside the "system"?Quote:
I'm not clear on why you think I have a sense of entitlement. I provide for myself and my family with the fruits of my labor. I'm not going to compare my junk with yours. I'm happy with my junk, and I am in no way envious of yours, so put your ATM card away.
Except you think I should have paid for your education. Quote:
Children and societal burdens. Agreed, a fitness and means system would be ideal. The enforcement of penalties would be heinous to some, I would speculate that the offended would be the culprits in this case. To me the road between enabling and encouraging is short in distance and direct in nature. So on that we disagree, I believe that the system encourages a lot of things through the enabling policies regulating the administration of the programs.
I don't see where you found a disagreement with me vis-a-vis encouraging and enablng. Quote:
I think that socialism is not an interpretative issue, it can be clearly defined. According to the Socialist Party, the U.K. is not a socialist government "For instance, in the past the Labour Party in Britain was often labeled "socialist". When the Labour Party was in government, people sometimes used to say "We have a socialist government," and even that Britain was socialist. But this was not true. Labour governments did not go beyond the boundaries of capitalism. The country remained capitalist."
This I most definitely disagree about. It is not simply an all or none definition. At what point does the prevalence of socialist policy define the entire enterprise to be socialist? There are elements of capitalism in China and Cuba. Are they thus capitalist countries? Nope.
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The False Diviner
proselytizing fool

Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 45
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: zappaisgod]
#11118996 - 09/24/09 12:51 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Again, I was admittedly mistaken in my choice of words. That said, when I admit to wrong doing, anything further from you is unessential, and could be exposing you as an asshole. I will refrain from speculating in regard to your intent.
Sure, you could say that the G.I. Bill is part of the system, but I would consider that compensation for my service as opposed to a social aid. That compensation was a significant factor in my enlistment. As for the employer, it was his choice that served me well, he just happens to be an individual in the system.
You would be mistaken to think that I think that you should have paid for my education. You're assuming something that is just not true.
China had a purely communist planed economy until 1970 when privately owned enterprise was first allowed. That enterprise has grown considerable since then, but the huge cooperation's in China that would compare favorably with say Aetna or ExonMobile are government owned. Cuba, to my knowledge doesn't have anything on that scale.
The U.K. may have people with socialist ideas and agendas but the presence of universal health care and other programs just doesn't merit the label, as could be said in the case of China and capitalism. If you want to get real picky you could say that our social security system is socialist. Does that make this a socialist country? At it's introduction Roosevelt's Social Security Platform was vigilantly ridiculed as being socialistic. I could argue that our country is and has been socialist sense the early 1900's, if I use the same criteria you do in your labeling of the U.K. as a socialist country.
For your information, socialism according to the socialist party, really cant exist on a country by country basis. They believe that it would only be successful on an international scale.
Have a nice day, The False Diviner
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: The False Diviner]
#11119063 - 09/24/09 01:03 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
The False Diviner said: Again, I was admittedly mistaken in my choice of words. That said, when I admit to wrong doing, anything further from you is unessential, and could be exposing you as an asshole. I will refrain from speculating in regard to your intent.
You admit to a poor choice of words. Yipee. Do you admit to being a pig who degrades women just by bragging about degrading women? This is like the all too common non-apology apology so popular these days.
For any further clarification of what I am see my title. For any further of clarification of what you are see a mirror.Quote:
Sure, you could say that the G.I. Bill is part of the system, but I would consider that compensation for my service as opposed to a social aid. That compensation was a significant factor in my enlistment. As for the employer, it was his choice that served me well, he just happens to be an individual in the system.
You would be mistaken to think that I think that you should have paid for my education. You're assuming something that is just not true.
I pay the public's bills. Everytime anybody wants something from the government they want it from me.Quote:
China had a purely communist planed economy until 1970 when privately owned enterprise was first allowed. That enterprise has grown considerable since then, but the huge cooperation's in China that would compare favorably with say Aetna or ExonMobile are government owned. Cuba, to my knowledge doesn't have anything on that scale.
The U.K. may have people with socialist ideas and agendas but the presence of universal health care and other programs just doesn't merit the label, as could be said in the case of China and capitalism. If you want to get real picky you could say that our social security system is socialist. Does that make this a socialist country? At it's introduction Roosevelt's Social Security Platform was vigilantly ridiculed as being socialistic. I could argue that our country is and has been socialist sense the early 1900's, if I use the same criteria you do in your labeling of the U.K. as a socialist country.
For your information, socialism according to the socialist party, really cant exist on a country by country basis. They believe that it would only be successful on an international scale.
I do not recall granting the Socialist party the power to define the words in the English language.
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The False Diviner
proselytizing fool

Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 45
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: zappaisgod]
#11119298 - 09/24/09 01:47 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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I see, you wear your badge with pride. Congratulations, on the significance of that accomplishment. Conversely, I could give a rats ass what you think about me.
Not that I attempted to apologize, as I see that as a weakness, do you have a certain level of groveling that is required to execute an apology? Do you realize that admittance of guilt is not an apology?
With all the people in line looking for a handout these days, do you feel like everyone wants something from you, and how does that effect your mental well being?
I think you may be a bit confused on what socialism is. If you care to check yourself, you could read this . Although, this may be another attempt by socialist dictating definitions within the English language.
I can only conclude at this point in the debate that you have continuous failure to support your side with anything beyond opinion and assumptions. It would be pointless for me to proceed further.
Have a nice day, The False Diviner
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: The False Diviner]
#11119500 - 09/24/09 02:19 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
The False Diviner said: I see, you wear your badge with pride. Congratulations, on the significance of that accomplishment. Conversely, I could give a rats ass what you think about me.
Not that I attempted to apologize, as I see that as a weakness, do you have a certain level of groveling that is required to execute an apology? Do you realize that admittance of guilt is not an apology?
Hence my characterization of it as phony baloney bullshit. It isn't me you should apologize to, anyway. It's all women since you seem to think that degrading them is something to brag about. Stay classy.Quote:
With all the people in line looking for a handout these days, do you feel like everyone wants something from you, and how does that effect your mental well being?
Not everyone is on the handout line. Unlike you.Quote:
I think you may be a bit confused on what socialism is. If you care to check yourself, you could read this . Although, this may be another attempt by socialist dictating definitions within the English language.
I can only conclude at this point in the debate that you have continuous failure to support your side with anything beyond opinion and assumptions. It would be pointless for me to proceed further.
I don't argue with you for your sake. I argue with you for the sake of the little children who might otherwise be polluted by your bilge.
As I have stated repeatedly, socialism v capitalism is a continuum. State controlled health care is socialist. Market controlled health care is not. I can produce other examples. At what point does it tip over into describing an entire state as socialist v capitalist? That is exactly a matter of opinion. Shouldn't you be out bragging about your latest donkey punch?
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The False Diviner
proselytizing fool

Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 45
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: zappaisgod]
#11119875 - 09/24/09 03:17 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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It would be morally presumptuous for you to think I need to apologize to anybody.
I'm confused, exactly when did I have my hand out? Was it when I earned a scholorship with my GPA and entrance exam scores? When I completed my enlistment and received my G.I. Bill funds as compensation? Could it have been when I took out student loans and paid them off in full with interest? Or perhaps, when I worked flipping burgers to fund the rest of my education. Maybe, it was some public assistance that I have never had? At this point your attempting to characterize me with claims that you can not provide any evidence of, valid or not.
I could be wrong but it seems to me, that your crusade to protect the little children reading this forum from my bilge, is either futile or delusional, given the nature of these forums. Are you going extinguish my ideas with your superior intellect or your morally presumptive juju? Good luck with that.
Have a nice day, The False Diviner
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: The False Diviner]
#11119967 - 09/24/09 03:32 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
The False Diviner said: It would be morally presumptuous for you to think I need to apologize to anybody.
I'm confused, exactly when did I have my hand out? Was it when I earned a scholorship with my GPA and entrance exam scores? When I completed my enlistment and received my G.I. Bill funds as compensation? Could it have been when I took out student loans and paid them off in full with interest? Or perhaps, when I worked flipping burgers to fund the rest of my education. Maybe, it was some public assistance that I have never had? At this point your attempting to characterize me with claims that you can not provide any evidence of, valid or not.
Did you or did you not advocate for greater public funding for college education? You may not be the one receiving the benefit but you sure do have your hand out.Quote:
I could be wrong but it seems to me, that your crusade to protect the little children reading this forum from my bilge, is either futile or delusional, given the nature of these forums. Are you going extinguish my ideas with your superior intellect or your morally presumptive juju? Good luck with that.
I have actually had an influence on the little children. And yes, my superior intellect along with my impeccable erudition and unparalleled logic skills will banish your turgid bilge back into the intellectual depths from which it unfortunately erupted like an unwelcome zit on prom night.
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Chespirito
Stranger



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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: zappaisgod]
#11120498 - 09/24/09 04:59 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: And yes, my superior intellect along with my impeccable erudition and unparalleled logic skills will banish your turgid bilge back into the intellectual depths from which it unfortunately erupted like an unwelcome zit on prom night.
You do realize that once a zit erupts, you don't put the puss back into the skin right? That simile makes no sense at worst, and is just drivel at best.
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The False Diviner
proselytizing fool

Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 45
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Chespirito]
#11120820 - 09/24/09 06:07 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
I have actually had an influence on the little children.
On this forum? Unless you're furnishing our debate gone wild to children off site, I can't see the sanity in your crusade.
Back to the topic at hand, I'm against free market student loans. The reason that I'm against this is because I can find no reason that dividends should be payed to investors on the backs of citizens that are trying to get an education. I think that the profits are evident in the increased tax base that results from, the increased taxable incomes of college educated workers and the interest payed by the student.. You can label this as a socialist agenda if you like. In any event, your assertion that your tax dollar is being spent is not entirely accurate. When you extent credit in the form of a student loan, free market or otherwise you are making an investment. The problem with the banks and corporation like Sallie Mae controlling the lions share of student loans is a largely an issue of accessibility. I'm pretty sure that historically it has been harder for a minority to obtain credit, including student loans. If the Dept. of education wants to invest public funds on student loans I don't see the problem. I'm assuming that the return rate on student loans is higher than the loans that have been issued to other countries, for instance.
Never mind, that I see a certain amount of perversion in relation to Federal Family Education Loan Program (FFELP). My understanding of FFELP is that Sallie Mae,and banks derived profits from FFELP subsidies paid with our tax dollars. So the dividends being payed to investors is a handout from tax payer dollars. These FFELP lenders also managed to run the business model into the ground and had to be bailed out with your tax dollar to keep students in school.
If you can, feel free to debate. If not, please resume your crusade to banish my turgid bilge. I find it entertaining.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: The False Diviner]
#11121145 - 09/24/09 06:58 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well, at least you got rid of that obnoxious "have a nice day" mandate.
So you hate profit on money? How do you stand on the idea of certain remote areas paying for a med students education in return for a certain number of years practice. Is that only good if they make a profit or if they lose money?
I would love to see some kind of study somewhere that confirms the idea that a bachelor's degree justifies the cost in taxes repaid. It's probably borderline justified in individual income, no less taxes.
And you wonder why I think you might be a socialist.
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The False Diviner
proselytizing fool

Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 45
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: zappaisgod]
#11124300 - 09/25/09 08:52 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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No, I don't hate profit on money. What I don't approve of is shareholders receiving dividends that are a direct result of government subsidies. I also have a problem with executives being compensated on the backs of Government subsidies.
In a free market business model there are six conditions existing that keep CEO's and management in line:
- business failure
- market for corporate control
- alignment of the manager’s interests with those of the shareholders
- legal duties required under corporate law
- corporate governance by the board of directors
- votes by shareholders
The Federal Family Education Loan Program (FFELP) implemented in the 70's, is the defining factor of the current student loan business model. FFELP not only payed Sallie Mae and the banks subsidies (your tax dollar) to make low interest student loans, they guaranteed the student loans (again your tax dollar).
The mere existence of the FFELP, takes the first condition of free market off the board. Business failure is no longer a concern if the government guarantees the investment return with your tax dollar.
The 2007 financial aid officer incentive scandal, the 2008 secondary student loan market freeze (a result of the overall mortgage & lending collapse), and the 2008-2009 academic year taxpayer-funded rescue, take the remaining five free market conditions off the board. Admittedly, some more so than others.
At this point we are left with the differences separating a state owned enterprise from a state sponsored enterprise. Regardless, of the difference between the two, the fact is that, neither are free market enterprises.
With the free market business model gone we are left with three options on the table. Moving on, let us explore those options:
- The FFELP, not free market, failing, any resulting shareholder dividends are largely a result of tax payer moneys, and has failed requiring tax dollar funded rescue to keep students in school
- The pending legislation, not free market, tax dollars invested as opposed to be handed out as subsidies or cooperate rescue.
- A true free market student lending business model. No subsidies, no loan guarantees, no rescue.
Ideally, I would like to support the free market business model. Unfortunately given the current state of affairs it would not fly. The lenders would jack up the interest rate, significantly less people would be able to secure loans, and campus enrollment would plummet. The government would reallocate the tax dollar to grant programs which would rely solely on potential tax base increase as a means of return. The investor dividend would be free of tax payer money, but the tax payer money would still go out and with no investment return as capital. Unfortunately, all the above takes this option off the board for me.
Left with the other two non-free market options,I am supporting the current legislation over the FFELP. I would prefer to see my tax dollar invested with the possibility of capital gain as opposed to spent in the form of subsidies and bailouts.
Have a nice day, The False Diviner
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The False Diviner
proselytizing fool

Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 45
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: The False Diviner]
#11124434 - 09/25/09 09:30 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
How do you stand on the idea of certain remote areas paying for a med students education in return for a certain number of years practice. Is that only good if they make a profit or if they lose money?
Funny you should ask, my brother in law works under the Surgeon General as a doctor on an Indian Reservation. He has a G-something pay status which is about the same as being an officer in the military. I'm not sure if his service was ever tied to his education funding, and I'll be sure to ask next time we see each other. Not exactly the same thing your talking about so I'll move on to my response.
To some extent, it depends on the options available to the community. Moreover, what are the returns on the investment? I would tend to think that tuition for a term of service would not be enough. Ideally, I would be more supportive of a cut rate student loan, living wage salary, and a term of service.
The False Diviner
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Seuss]
#11132359 - 09/26/09 03:45 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said:
Yes. Why should I be paying for your kids education? (Please don't give me the song and dance about how someday, when I am older, the younger population will somehow be helping me and that by educating them, I am investing in my own future.)
Really.
So how do you feel about public K-12 education?
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shinear
experimental


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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Statisticons_win]
#27785865 - 05/20/22 02:37 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Statisticons_win said: Apparently the government has wrested control of the student loan market from the hands of capitalism, and deposited it quite firmly in the Dept of Edu. Is this another Marxist coup?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090917/pl_nm/us_studentloans_house_3
Nice debate over 12 years ago
Now that the want of socialism is instilled in our young and our current government wants to pay student loans (the loans, not pay back the money hard working people paid)
who had it right or wrong.
If any of the OG debaters are still on would love to see the long term and if you still feel the same.
I have not read the whole thing word for word yet, if the OG debaters show up I will.
I want to read old and new at same time for comparison, no criticism on either side just our god given and constitution guaranteed right to debate our opinions.
I for one have never been very liberal but was considerably more so 12 years ago, my wife lost over 20 years in student loans at a major bank when the government took it away from the private sector.
From what I can tell the takeover did nothing to help students just made it more costly and a drain on the taxpayer.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: shinear]
#27785963 - 05/20/22 04:04 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Why though
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OutsideOfMyMind
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Seuss]
#27790077 - 05/23/22 11:11 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: > More bang for the buck. Is that a bad thing???
Yes. Why should I be paying for your kids education? (Please don't give me the song and dance about how someday, when I am older, the younger population will somehow be helping me and that by educating them, I am investing in my own future.)
> So why was SAFRA a bad thing again?
No idea. I'm not really fluent on homosexual issues in the Islamic world.
So are you okay with living in a country where people are completely uneducated? Because if you are then I think you should move to Mexico or guatemala. You can damn well bet that in my older years I would definitely want to be taken care of by someone who is well educated rather than these God damn run of the mill average Joe shmoes we have.
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Mach z 800
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
#27790759 - 05/24/22 02:47 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Im all for this i know a few people with 40k or of debt. An this will get biden 2024 victory on top of that.
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Kryptos
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
#27793424 - 05/26/22 08:35 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
OutsideOfMyMind said:
Quote:
Seuss said: > More bang for the buck. Is that a bad thing???
Yes. Why should I be paying for your kids education? (Please don't give me the song and dance about how someday, when I am older, the younger population will somehow be helping me and that by educating them, I am investing in my own future.)
> So why was SAFRA a bad thing again?
No idea. I'm not really fluent on homosexual issues in the Islamic world.
So are you okay with living in a country where people are completely uneducated? Because if you are then I think you should move to Mexico or guatemala. You can damn well bet that in my older years I would definitely want to be taken care of by someone who is well educated rather than these God damn run of the mill average Joe shmoes we have.
Lol nobody is actually okay with living in an uneducated country. People arguing against student loan forgiveness want to have their cake and eat it too. This is most obvious by the growing freakout over falling birthrates.
People against loan forgiveness want the benefits of college educated populations, but don't actually want to pay the costs associated with it.
Come to think of it, I can't think of a more purely capitalist idea.
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Enlil
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Kryptos]
#27793573 - 05/26/22 10:55 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Until a better system is developed, capitalism is the best we've got.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Enlil] 1
#27793667 - 05/26/22 12:39 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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metalfaith
Moron



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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Enlil]
#27794578 - 05/27/22 01:46 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Until a better system is developed, capitalism is the best we've got.
Genuine question I have asked myself in response to this thought:
How will I know when one is developed? What would it look like?
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Kryptos
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: metalfaith] 1
#27794786 - 05/27/22 07:28 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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The US will be widely considered a collapsed state.
That is how you know a system better than capitalism has been developed.
You gotta remember, it's not just coming up with a system better than capitalism, we've done that plenty of times. The problem is coming up with a system that can survive the expansionist militant capitalism of the US.
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Enlil
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: metalfaith]
#27794821 - 05/27/22 08:15 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
metalfaith said:
How will I know when one is developed? What would it look like?
I have no idea what it will look like, but when it is developed, it will inevitably spread throughout the world. The reason capitalism has the reach it does is because of its effectiveness. A more effective system will drown capitalism out.
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Kryptos
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Enlil]
#27795077 - 05/27/22 12:31 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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"effectiveness" in this case is another name for the US Navy.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Kryptos]
#27795079 - 05/27/22 12:33 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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A better system will use the U.S. Navy as a tool.
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Enlil]
#27795223 - 05/27/22 02:40 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Seems like Fascism is a pretty effective system.
If only it could cool it's jets with the genocide and wars and whatnot.
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Kryptos
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#27795229 - 05/27/22 02:45 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Fascism is the geopolitical equivalent of chopping a hole in the wall of your house to get wood for the fireplace.
Also a good analogy for Boomer economics.
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Enlil
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#27795236 - 05/27/22 02:50 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Baby_Hitler said: Seems like Fascism is a pretty effective system.
If that's true, why has fascism failed spectacularly every single time it has been tried?
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Baby_Hitler
Errorist




Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,660
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 6 hours, 37 minutes
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#27795279 - 05/27/22 03:24 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Baby_Hitler said: Seems like Fascism is a pretty effective system.
If that's true, why has fascism failed spectacularly every single time it has been tried?
Quote:
Baby_Hitler said: If only it could cool it's jets with the genocide and wars and whatnot.
I mean... I answered the question before you asked it, then you deleted it... and then asked the question.
-------------------- This space for rent
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,514
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#27795327 - 05/27/22 03:54 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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I didn't delete anything.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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RaymondMorgan
Stranger
Registered: 06/26/22
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Enlil]
#27837235 - 06/26/22 09:32 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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The crisis connected to students' debts has been lasting for years. I don't know if it's because of the imperfection of the educational or financial system, but many students have financial troubles, and it's a fact. You have to take a loan when you don't have enough money to pay for tuition. Some unis increase the tuition cost, and yes, they provide more chances to get a scholarship, but still, not each student can get it. I have mixed feelings about all the changes, but I can say that students, me included, still face a lot of financial troubles, and I can name it one more social issue in the 21st century.
Edited by RaymondMorgan (10/30/23 09:12 AM)
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OutsideOfMyMind
LSD Self Administrative Director


Registered: 10/05/20
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: RaymondMorgan]
#27837592 - 06/26/22 03:12 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Trade school is crap. The problem with trade school is that you're only learning 1 trade. Your options for jobs are still limited. At least with a degree, your job options are not limited to just 1 type of employer. I went to bullshit massage therapy school thinking it was going to bring me the money I need to get me through real college, but, all I really did was just swap out a shitty job with another shitty job. Now I'm going back to college to get a bs in biochemistry so I can have a REAL career.
Another thing with trade school is that if you have a work place injury, you're out of work. At least with a degree, you could still get another job that doesn't bother the injury.
Trade school is good in theory and it's how uneducated people talk themselves into getting a career, but you still don't make good money in trades. Mechanics don't make all that great money unless they are OWNERS of a mechanics shop.
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Kryptos
Stranger

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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
#27837608 - 06/26/22 03:24 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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I wouldn't say trade schools are necessarily bad. And trades aren't a bad career, they're just a limited career. As you said, mechanics don't make all that much money until they own a shop. Owning a shop isn't being a mechanic. Owning a shop is being a business owner. That's a different job. No longer a trade school trade.
I don't think trade schools are bad, per se. For me, they tend to feel like an acceptance of your own limitations.
I do not accept that I have limitations.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 22,488
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Kryptos]
#27838617 - 06/27/22 09:43 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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learning a trade isn't an acceptance of limitations any more than the pursuit of a degree and it doesn't bar anyone from continuing to learn and develop other skills.
--------------------
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,514
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Kryptos]
#27838768 - 06/27/22 11:45 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said:
I do not accept that I have limitations.
You should accept that this is your biggest limitation.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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Chill Bro
Stranger
Registered: 06/27/22
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Enlil]
#27838787 - 06/27/22 11:59 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Biden’s trying to renege on his promise of $10,000 in forgiveness for everyone by appeasing and cancelling the loans of select groups. He’s trying to splinter the debt collective movement
https://debtcollective.org/
Fuck him
Edited by Chill Bro (06/27/22 12:00 PM)
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budmanman
OTD Masterbater



Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 18,257
Loc: PNW
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Chill Bro]
#27839051 - 06/27/22 02:32 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Chill Bro said: Biden’s trying to renege on his promise of $10,000 in forgiveness for everyone by appeasing and cancelling the loans of select groups. He’s trying to splinter the debt collective movement
https://debtcollective.org/
Fuck him
Maybe I misjudged Biden, maybe he is a good President after all.
-------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
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Kryptos
Stranger

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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: budmanman]
#27839224 - 06/27/22 04:26 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: learning a trade isn't an acceptance of limitations any more than the pursuit of a degree and it doesn't bar anyone from continuing to learn and develop other skills.
To me it is. I don't mean to generalize that unto others, that's a standard I set for myself only. If I generalized my standards unto others, I would be even more of a misanthrope.
Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Kryptos said:
I do not accept that I have limitations.
You should accept that this is your biggest limitation.
Sounds like one of them good problems.
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ashfiken
TotalCrazyasshole


Registered: 09/06/06
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Kryptos]
#27840239 - 06/28/22 07:33 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Trades are great for a lot of ppl. I dunno what limitations has to do with jt rly.... They allow you to earn a living and while yall claim jobs are limited, in most trades jobs are guaranteed anywhere in the country. For many ppl it seems no matter the limitations or intelligence, they may not find a field to get a regular degree that interests or challenges em. If I didn't have my trade I don't know what I'd do. I went to a four year I could excelled. Never picked a major as a 18 y/o now Ove 10 years later I still have no clue what major or degree I'd tackle. I have too many interests, and many of my interests with a degree wouldn't be profitable. We need ppl of all kinds in all fields trades includes. Limitations aren't a thing, it's necessity to have all fields with skilled ppl. Maybe my limitation would be not figuring out how to sell myself to a degree In a career I don't know if I will enjoy, or succeed and not wanting to be debt laden with the rest of students. Instead debt free productive. And maybe never wealthy but I do fine as an average American
-------------------- hmm... "I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked." "life isn't worth living without the threat of death" "I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be" "nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters" My Trade List
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OutsideOfMyMind
LSD Self Administrative Director


Registered: 10/05/20
Posts: 5,546
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: ashfiken]
#27840596 - 06/28/22 12:46 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
ashfiken said: Trades are great for a lot of ppl. I dunno what limitations has to do with jt rly.... They allow you to earn a living and while yall claim jobs are limited, in most trades jobs are guaranteed anywhere in the country. For many ppl it seems no matter the limitations or intelligence, they may not find a field to get a regular degree that interests or challenges em. If I didn't have my trade I don't know what I'd do. I went to a four year I could excelled. Never picked a major as a 18 y/o now Ove 10 years later I still have no clue what major or degree I'd tackle. I have too many interests, and many of my interests with a degree wouldn't be profitable. We need ppl of all kinds in all fields trades includes. Limitations aren't a thing, it's necessity to have all fields with skilled ppl. Maybe my limitation would be not figuring out how to sell myself to a degree In a career I don't know if I will enjoy, or succeed and not wanting to be debt laden with the rest of students. Instead debt free productive. And maybe never wealthy but I do fine as an average American
I can't do my "trade" job "all over the country." My stupid trade is only limited to one fucking state. A stupid massage therapy license is only recognized in ONE state. I wouldn't be able to move on a whim and just do massage wherever the fuck I want.
A DEGREE would enable me to be able to move wherever the fuck I want and get a job in the field. I'm so sick of people talking about trade school.
Edited by OutsideOfMyMind (06/28/22 12:47 PM)
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budmanman
OTD Masterbater



Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 18,257
Loc: PNW
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: ashfiken]
#27840686 - 06/28/22 01:35 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
ashfiken said: Trades are great for a lot of ppl. I dunno what limitations has to do with jt rly.... They allow you to earn a living and while yall claim jobs are limited, in most trades jobs are guaranteed anywhere in the country. For many ppl it seems no matter the limitations or intelligence, they may not find a field to get a regular degree that interests or challenges em. If I didn't have my trade I don't know what I'd do. I went to a four year I could excelled. Never picked a major as a 18 y/o now Ove 10 years later I still have no clue what major or degree I'd tackle. I have too many interests, and many of my interests with a degree wouldn't be profitable. We need ppl of all kinds in all fields trades includes. Limitations aren't a thing, it's necessity to have all fields with skilled ppl. Maybe my limitation would be not figuring out how to sell myself to a degree In a career I don't know if I will enjoy, or succeed and not wanting to be debt laden with the rest of students. Instead debt free productive. And maybe never wealthy but I do fine as an average American
I went to college I ended up stopping, the degree I was going for was straight shit, I had no idea what I was doing when I decided to pursue it I was 16.
My college was free. I just went online and signed up to go take a test and I took the test and I got a score high enough on it to get free college and then started going at 16.
I guess if you can't score high enough you will have to get a student loan to go. If you couldn't score high enough maybe you shouldn't be going to college anyway. They don't trust their money with you so maybe you shouldn't trust yourself you know what I am saying.
I was making over 100k a year doing HVAC with just 1 years experience, it is a good trade and you don't even have to go to school.
My friends on pace to make almost 200k this year doing HVAC.
I also have a friend who went to college and got some shitty degree who delivers furniture and always posts on facebook how broke he his and always about his struggles so I always message him hey I did HVAC here they pay good you should apply, or come where I work now and in several years you will make almost the same as that HVAC but with a lot less work.
Dude always says no lol. Also he got that Obama student loan forgiveness he applied for it and got it, took him a long time and they even refunded him all his payments he made on them stupid loans.
-------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 22,488
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
#27840911 - 06/28/22 04:21 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
OutsideOfMyMind said: I can't do my "trade" job "all over the country." My stupid trade is only limited to one fucking state. A stupid massage therapy license is only recognized in ONE state. I wouldn't be able to move on a whim and just do massage wherever the fuck I want.
A DEGREE would enable me to be able to move wherever the fuck I want and get a job in the field. I'm so sick of people talking about trade school.
Wait, are you saying that your license is only valid in one state or that only one state requires a license? I ask because a plumbing contractor's license (as an example) is only valid in the state that it was issued but If I'm a plumber in California and want to move and open a plumbing company in Ohio, I'll have to either test for a license in Ohio or if they offer an exemption for licensed contractors in other states just pay the fees and fill out the forms. As far as I know it's the same for other contractors. If, on the other hand, I went through a union apprenticeship and was a member in good standing I could transfer locals but it is not an easy or simple process.
There are trades that don't require a license, depending on where you are. Florida, as an example does not require any licensing for landscaping companies but does require a license to apply fertilizers/pesticides commercially. The license is very easy to get and doesn't cost much.
Many places will allow you to do quite a bit without a license if you follow the rules. Installers often don't need to be licensed. So, for example, an aquarium service can install an entire aquarium system with elaborate plumbing etc. as long as the parts are all manufactured rather than fabricated on site and no changes are made to the structure of the building. If the customer wants it built into a wall, on the other hand, a licensed contractor will have to complete the work other than the installation of the aquarium system itself.
Additionally, there are many people who learn a trade outside of trade school. The knowledge and skills don't disappear from their minds if they move. I don't need a license to be a carpenter, I just need to find a licensed carpenter to hire me and I can work under their license. How many carpet layers or tile setters are licensed? Probably less than 10%, i would guess. They own the companies and the rest are working under their licenses.
Finally, the requirement of a license to operate in a given trade doesn't preclude one from seeking those jobs anyway. Many installers working for big outfits at cheap pay do this. The boss sends them out to 15 jobs/ week and they cancel 3 and do them on the side in their off-time to bump their rate. I worked with a guy at a water heater company who cancelled 1 job/day! He eventually got fired but still. It's a 500 dollar job that the company wants to charge 1500 for so you can say you'll charge 1000 and get it every time.
--------------------
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
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Last seen: 8 months, 8 days
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
#27840990 - 06/28/22 05:06 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Here's a website that says how to transfer a massage license across state lines:
Is Your Massage License Valid When You Cross State Lines?
Quote:
Most of the time, a license in the new state must be obtained before you can legally work as a massage therapist. This means filling out an application, paying fees, submitting additional paperwork (license verifications, transcripts, or exam scores), and displaying a lot of patience.
So it's doable.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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feevers



Registered: 12/28/10
Posts: 8,780
Loc:
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#27841111 - 06/28/22 06:03 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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The fact that banks make billions reeling in 5-6 figure loans from uninformed children who want to go drink and fuck for a few years is pretty messed up, as are the schools with 65 deans and 100 admin staff to every student who milk the kids as well.
I'm happy I went back to school in my mid-late 20s. Knew what I wanted to do, paid my way through undergrad, I now have a lifelong amount of debt from grad school but it's doing fulfilling work I love where I can essentially set my own schedule and make as much money as I feel like, never have to deal with a boss again, can change setting by the day/week/month etc if I feel like it. More than worth the extra monthly bill, but that's after a decade of working and deciding what I wanted to do.
I think if they cancelled student debt almost all of that money would go right back into the economy pretty quickly. I still don't know what they'd do about all the kids in the future though? If they cancel loans I'd at least expect them to make state schools free and expand them. Maybe we'll join the rest of the world eventually.
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Kryptos
Stranger

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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: feevers] 1
#27841156 - 06/28/22 06:43 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
ashfiken said: They allow you to earn a living and while yall claim jobs are limited, in most trades jobs are guaranteed anywhere in the country.
Jobs are guaranteed everywhere right now. Jobs that pay enough for you to afford rent and food, on the other hand...
Quote:
feevers said: I think if they cancelled student debt almost all of that money would go right back into the economy pretty quickly. I still don't know what they'd do about all the kids in the future though? If they cancel loans I'd at least expect them to make state schools free and expand them. Maybe we'll join the rest of the world eventually.
The point isn;t for the money to go into the economy, the point is for the money to go to the rich. Cancelling student debt would be fantastic at growing the economy, but if you grow the pie, then JP Morgan's share of it gets smaller.
Licensing is a similarly fucky scam. Some licenses make sense--like, someone doing structural work should probably know how to avoid collapsing said structure.
Other licenses are straight "fuck you, pay me". Like, some states require licensing to do haircuts. Haircuts. Even the most fucked up haircut in the world is only a minor problem for a few weeks, maybe months, if you really hate short hair.
It's about pumping money into the smaug piles.
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Debracorbitt
Stranger
Registered: 06/29/22
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Kryptos]
#27842065 - 06/29/22 09:28 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Yeah, I'm new to this, soon I want to apply to law school but the situation that's described in this thread scares me.
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OutsideOfMyMind
LSD Self Administrative Director


Registered: 10/05/20
Posts: 5,546
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#27842387 - 06/29/22 01:33 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Quote:
OutsideOfMyMind said: I can't do my "trade" job "all over the country." My stupid trade is only limited to one fucking state. A stupid massage therapy license is only recognized in ONE state. I wouldn't be able to move on a whim and just do massage wherever the fuck I want.
A DEGREE would enable me to be able to move wherever the fuck I want and get a job in the field. I'm so sick of people talking about trade school.
Wait, are you saying that your license is only valid in one state or that only one state requires a license? I ask because a plumbing contractor's license (as an example) is only valid in the state that it was issued but If I'm a plumber in California and want to move and open a plumbing company in Ohio, I'll have to either test for a license in Ohio or if they offer an exemption for licensed contractors in other states just pay the fees and fill out the forms. As far as I know it's the same for other contractors. If, on the other hand, I went through a union apprenticeship and was a member in good standing I could transfer locals but it is not an easy or simple process.
There are trades that don't require a license, depending on where you are. Florida, as an example does not require any licensing for landscaping companies but does require a license to apply fertilizers/pesticides commercially. The license is very easy to get and doesn't cost much.
Many places will allow you to do quite a bit without a license if you follow the rules. Installers often don't need to be licensed. So, for example, an aquarium service can install an entire aquarium system with elaborate plumbing etc. as long as the parts are all manufactured rather than fabricated on site and no changes are made to the structure of the building. If the customer wants it built into a wall, on the other hand, a licensed contractor will have to complete the work other than the installation of the aquarium system itself.
Additionally, there are many people who learn a trade outside of trade school. The knowledge and skills don't disappear from their minds if they move. I don't need a license to be a carpenter, I just need to find a licensed carpenter to hire me and I can work under their license. How many carpet layers or tile setters are licensed? Probably less than 10%, i would guess. They own the companies and the rest are working under their licenses.
Finally, the requirement of a license to operate in a given trade doesn't preclude one from seeking those jobs anyway. Many installers working for big outfits at cheap pay do this. The boss sends them out to 15 jobs/ week and they cancel 3 and do them on the side in their off-time to bump their rate. I worked with a guy at a water heater company who cancelled 1 job/day! He eventually got fired but still. It's a 500 dollar job that the company wants to charge 1500 for so you can say you'll charge 1000 and get it every time.
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Here's a website that says how to transfer a massage license across state lines:
Is Your Massage License Valid When You Cross State Lines?
Quote:
Most of the time, a license in the new state must be obtained before you can legally work as a massage therapist. This means filling out an application, paying fees, submitting additional paperwork (license verifications, transcripts, or exam scores), and displaying a lot of patience.
So it's doable.
No, it's not "doable."
I ORIGINALLY got licensed in texas. I moved back to california and transferred the license to california. But Now I moved BACK to texas......................but check this bullshit out:
TEXAS REQUIRES THAT YOU TAKE THE FUCKING NATIONAL MASSAGE EXAM (THE MBLEX) WITHIN THE LAST 2 YEARS OF GETTING A TEXAS MASSAGE LICENSE. I TOOK THAT FUCKING TEST IN 2014 WHICH MEANS IF I WANT MY TEXAS MASSAGE LICENSE BACK I HAVE TO TAKE THE GOD DAMN TEST ALL OVER AGAIN. THIS MEANS I HAVE TO WASTE MY PRECIOUS TIME WHICH I ALREADY DON'T HAVE TO STUDY FOR A TEST THAT I TOOK 8 YEARS AGO. OTHER STATES DON'T REQUIRE THAT YOU TAKE THE FUCKING EXAM IN A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TIME. NOW I HAVE TO WASTE MY FUCKING TIME STUDYING FOR SHIT THAT I HAVE NO INTEREST IN ANYMORE JUST FOR A JOB THAT DOESN'T EVEN PAY ENOUGH TO BEGIN WITH.
ON TOP OF THAT, SOME STATES HAVE MORE REQUIREMENTS. FOR EXAMPLE, I DID A 500 HOUR MASSAGE PROGRAM. TEXAS AND CALIFORNIA REQUIRE 500 HOURS. BUT IF I WANTED TO MOVE TO NEW YORK, I THINK THEY REQUIRE LIKE 1,000 HOURS OR SOME RIDICULOUS AMOUNT. CANADA REQUIRES 2,000 HOURS.
I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU BUT NONE OF MY CLIENTS HAVE EVEN GIVEN A SHIT ABOUT ANYTHING OTHER THAN SWEDISH AND DEEP TISSUE. LEARNING ANYTHING ELSE IS A WASTE OF TIME AND MONEY. I HAVE MET MASSAGE THERAPISTS WHO TALK ABOUT HOW THEY'RE "CERTIFIED IN LOMI LOMI MASSAGE OR CERTIFIED IN MYOFASCIAL RELEASE BLA BLA BLA" BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, YOUR CLIENTS DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT LOMI LOMI. IT'S NOT A FUCKING MARKETABLE MODALITY.
MASSAGE SHOULDN'T EVEN BE REGULATED. THE BOARDS ONLY EXIST TO STEAL YOUR MONEY IN THE FORM OF APPLICATION FEES AND OTHER BULLSHIT.
Edited by OutsideOfMyMind (06/29/22 01:38 PM)
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 22,488
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
#27842404 - 06/29/22 01:41 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Sounds like Texas and massage were maybe both not ideal choices.
--------------------
Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
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ashfiken
TotalCrazyasshole


Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 3,224
Loc: SCranton
Last seen: 1 day, 17 hours
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: ballsalsa]
#27842416 - 06/29/22 01:47 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Yeah I see you have been burnt out on it and should move on, probably for other reasons too... Js, I live in the south and I know massage therapists that make double what I do. Only thing I will say about it is it's not easy work/very rough on the body
-------------------- hmm... "I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked." "life isn't worth living without the threat of death" "I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be" "nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters" My Trade List
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OutsideOfMyMind
LSD Self Administrative Director


Registered: 10/05/20
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: ballsalsa]
#27842533 - 06/29/22 02:59 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: Sounds like Texas and massage were maybe both not ideal choices.
Texas just started this bullshit where you have to had taken the licensing exam within 2 years of applying for a texas license. Back when I first got licensed in texas they didn't give a fuck when you took the exam but they recently changed the law in order to make my life HELL.
Getting into massage was the worse decision I've ever made but I thought it was going to be a good career when I first got into it back in 2014. I've never made really good money with it. It's very unstable. Much like my bipolar moods.
I don't have any other work experience besides retail and restaurant work but I'd rather kill myself than go back to working in those jobs so now I'm forced to have to get the stupid massage license back for texas. It's so much bullshit. If I had a degree, it would work in any state, and I wouldn't have to take no fucking test all over again.
This is really fucking pissing me off just talking about it. I want to fucking kill myself.
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Kryptos
Stranger

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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
#27842544 - 06/29/22 03:05 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Texas is always a bad choice.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 22,488
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
#27842572 - 06/29/22 03:23 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Don't do anything hasty. Its a test and a fee. It sucks but it happens to a lot of us. Even lawyers have to take tests and pay fees when they move.
--------------------
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Kryptos
Stranger

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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: ballsalsa]
#27842579 - 06/29/22 03:29 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Lawyers needing licensing and testing makes sense. An incompetent lawyer can absolutely fuckerize somebody's life, especially since SCOTUS recently ruled that having incompetent representation is no longer valid cause for a mistrial.
A massage therapist can...maybe make someone sore for a few days? If they're REALLY bad?
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ballsalsa
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Kryptos]
#27842592 - 06/29/22 03:40 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Of course, but the state wants money and since voters don't take kindly to new taxes, we get fees instead
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Kryptos
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: ballsalsa]
#27842605 - 06/29/22 03:49 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Especially when those fees can be funneled through a third party private company that turns a profit and happens to be owned by a state legislator.
Kind of like how NC decided to outsource payment processing of DMV fees to a third party company, which charges you a 3$ fee to process your payments of DMV fees. But hey! Taxes...maybe went down? I dunno, they never seemed to go down for me.
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OutsideOfMyMind
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Kryptos]
#27842632 - 06/29/22 04:19 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said: Texas is always a bad choice.
Quote:
Kryptos said: Lawyers needing licensing and testing makes sense. An incompetent lawyer can absolutely fuckerize somebody's life, especially since SCOTUS recently ruled that having incompetent representation is no longer valid cause for a mistrial.
A massage therapist can...maybe make someone sore for a few days? If they're REALLY bad?
Quote:
Kryptos said: Especially when those fees can be funneled through a third party private company that turns a profit and happens to be owned by a state legislator.
Kind of like how NC decided to outsource payment processing of DMV fees to a third party company, which charges you a 3$ fee to process your payments of DMV fees. But hey! Taxes...maybe went down? I dunno, they never seemed to go down for me.
It's just more bullshit bureaucracy. It shouldn't cost extra to make a payment online. If anything it should be cheaper because it's less work for an administrator to do in office.
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Kryptos
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
#27842640 - 06/29/22 04:26 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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That's not bureaucracy, that's regulatory capture and privatization.
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OutsideOfMyMind
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Statisticons_win]
#27842670 - 06/29/22 04:44 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Statisticons_win said: Apparently the government has wrested control of the student loan market from the hands of capitalism, and deposited it quite firmly in the Dept of Edu. Is this another Marxist coup?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090917/pl_nm/us_studentloans_house_3
This link doesn't work anymore. What is the new student loan law???
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Kryptos
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
#27842767 - 06/29/22 06:35 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Biden did some very limited loan forgiveness for victims of fraudulent universities.
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OutsideOfMyMind
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Kryptos]
#27842796 - 06/29/22 07:11 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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What kind of fraudulent universities?
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Enlil
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
#27842882 - 06/29/22 08:15 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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That sounds like no big deal. If I had to take the bar again, it would mean a week or two of study, tops
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Kryptos
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
#27842913 - 06/29/22 08:32 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
OutsideOfMyMind said: What kind of fraudulent universities?
The kind that advertise on late night TV. ITTech, University of Phoenix, Trump University, a lot of religious schools, etc.
Usually unaccredited, or if they are accredited, then not in the programs that they advertise, and are often essentially a sales scheme for student loan debt. Often times, that's part of the advertisement: the ability to pay for it with loans easily, as well as a high acceptance rate. They generally target lower income folk in their late 20s/early 30s that are stuck in dead end jobs with promises of building a career, right around the time they start realizing that they need a degree to move up.
Also, they heavily recruit people who would be the first in their family to attend college, because they prey on the lack of...I guess, academic savvy? I don't know how to put it. But if you know even the slightest bit about how academia works, they're easy to spot as scam schools.
They do have flashy advertisements, though. Very slick, high production quality.
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nooneman


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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Statisticons_win]
#27842953 - 06/29/22 08:48 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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I don't have any strong feelings on this one way or the other, but maybe we should make schools pay back the money that students spent on worthless degrees specifically.
Like if you got a degree in history, that's fucking worthless, maybe the school should be forced to give you back your money because they basically suckered you in to getting a worthless bullshit degree. Not really as anything for the student but just as punishment for universities selling people on worthless degrees.
Anyway, that's not a serious proposal just me complaining about universities giving people worthless degrees.
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Kryptos
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: nooneman]
#27842975 - 06/29/22 08:56 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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We do, they declare bankruptcy and don't pay. The Trump Gambit. Only reason he paid out 25 mil is because he was in the final stages of his campaign and didn't want the publicity of another bankruptcy.
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OutsideOfMyMind
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: nooneman]
#27842997 - 06/29/22 09:06 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
nooneman said: I don't have any strong feelings on this one way or the other, but maybe we should make schools pay back the money that students spent on worthless degrees specifically.
Like if you got a degree in history, that's fucking worthless, maybe the school should be forced to give you back your money because they basically suckered you in to getting a worthless bullshit degree. Not really as anything for the student but just as punishment for universities selling people on worthless degrees.
Anyway, that's not a serious proposal just me complaining about universities giving people worthless degrees.
I would be in favor of universities having to pay the banks back for loans if the student cannot find employment in their field of study within 6 months of graduating. Even 6 months is too much. It's the universities' responsibilities to gear adults for a willful career and if they can't deliver then they should be held accountable.
The government should be responsible for having jobs within the economy that these universities are providing studies for, enough jobs for everyone in the country and if certain people can't have a job whether because they're disabled or just straight up can't find work, then the government needs to be responsible for their well being. We can't have people becoming homeless. Loser or not a loser, it's not a sanitary way of living and it pollutes the sides of the roads.
The government should always be able to know if we need more doctors, more lawyers, less massage therapists, etc. If a certain industry is NOT in high demand then schools should gear their students for degrees and programs where there are actual job NEEDS in that industry.
Edited by OutsideOfMyMind (06/29/22 09:11 PM)
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Kryptos
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
#27843006 - 06/29/22 09:13 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Often, these universities *are* the banks. They have their own finance departments, just like car dealerships nowadays.
You know how car dealerships stay in business when everybody can (a) look up the MSRP and (b) the dealerships display it?
Financing. The dealerships make money off the loans. They cut out the banks, and do the loans in-house.
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OutsideOfMyMind
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Enlil]
#27843014 - 06/29/22 09:16 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: That sounds like no big deal. If I had to take the bar again, it would mean a week or two of study, tops
The problem is that I barely passed the massage exam the first time. I looked up my old score. I scored a 689, which is barely above the 630 passing score out of 900. Most of the questions I didn't even learn in massage school. I would need to restudy ALL of my anatomy, physiology, kinesiology, pathology, ethics, client history, etc. Honestly, I went to massage school HIGH nearly every day, that's how boring it was.
Edited by OutsideOfMyMind (06/29/22 09:18 PM)
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Kryptos
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
#27843019 - 06/29/22 09:22 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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That was also probably not the best decision.
I can't fault you, I made similar decisions in my first few years of college. I didn't go to class at all until junior year, and skated by on straight brain power. I would derive equations during tests that I should have learned in class because I could.
Junior year, I no longer could. Quantum chem was the moment that became unsustainable. There just wasn't enough time for me to figure out partial derivatives of wavefunctions on the fly during a test.
Took me nearly half of grad school to stop going to school high.
This has caused some gaps in my knowledge that I am forced to fill pretty routinely. I have to bust out textbooks for stuff that most sophomore chemists know, because I just never learned it the first time and haven't needed it until now.
You're in a similar boat. Time to bust out those old textbooks and fill those gaps.
EDIT: That's actually a large part of why I try to answer questions in the chemistry forum. Part of it is because I can and want people to make drugs safely, but a big part of that is because it causes me to bust out my early textbooks and learn shit that I should know. micro's posts were very good for that, because they were doing stuff more complicated than A/B extractions. Of course, they were also quite reckless, and I'd guess they stopped posting because they're either dead of a fuckup or in big boy jail for drug manufacture.
Anybody happen to know?
Edited by Kryptos (06/29/22 09:32 PM)
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OutsideOfMyMind
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Kryptos]
#27843055 - 06/29/22 09:39 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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I mean I passed all of my classes, it's just the STATE EXAM I barely passed.
Now, COLLEGE classes, I'm pretty good at getting straight A's.
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Kryptos
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
#27843071 - 06/29/22 09:45 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Same shit applies.
Although, test taking strategy becomes a factor. A large part of why I didn't fail out of college is because I'm extremely good at taking tests. That is also a learned skill, I just picked it up in middle/high school during state exams.
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OutsideOfMyMind
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Kryptos]
#27843195 - 06/29/22 11:45 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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I'm pretty good at taking tests too. I'm also really good at figuring out how a professor does their tests and grading and more or less conforming. For example, some professors base their tests more on text book info, some base them more on lecture material, some base their grading on busy work, it's all about figuring out how a professor does their thing and just doing it.
Edited by OutsideOfMyMind (06/29/22 11:46 PM)
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Kryptos
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
#27843885 - 06/30/22 02:18 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Then it sounds like no big deal. Just retake the test, get your new license.
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Debracorbitt
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Kryptos]
#27847893 - 07/03/22 04:24 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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I think this is fairer. But in time, we will see if this choice was right. In any case, I notice how we are moving towards development because already various sources are appearing that help with the university, such as this one https://edubirdie.com/buy-college-essays. I have used this kind of source several times, and buying college essays seemed to be the most convenient and useful. I believe that soon we will be taught by robots and what is most pleased is that it will be online at home on everyone's computer.
Edited by Debracorbitt (07/03/22 11:08 PM)
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