|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
|
Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: The False Diviner]
#11118620 - 09/24/09 11:35 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
The False Diviner said: Actually, I've never victimized anyone on the level you're referencing. My encounters with women have and always will be with full consent. There is an absence of victimization when a person exercises choice. I've never been one that has crossed the line with consent and its relation to intoxication. Admittedly , the use of the word degrading was incorrect on my part. I would have been better served to say something like "lots of wild sex".
Yes. It would have been much less trollish. As posted it exposes you as an asshole, which I'm sure is not what you had in mind. Quite possibly you might find thinking before posting to be a worthwhile standard operating procedure. Or not.Quote:
In regards to the system and how it served me, I would argue that I succeeded on my own merits. I didn't succeed as a result of the small amount of financial aid I received. In fact, it was the rewards for my military service and good fortune that allowed me to succeed. I was fortunate in that I found a job with an employer who supported my studies to the extent of bending his business around those studies. The debt and gratitude I owe lies with that business owner and not the system.
No? The "system" includes the GI bill. It also included that employer and the aid and the loans. Just what do you think was outside the "system"?Quote:
I'm not clear on why you think I have a sense of entitlement. I provide for myself and my family with the fruits of my labor. I'm not going to compare my junk with yours. I'm happy with my junk, and I am in no way envious of yours, so put your ATM card away.
Except you think I should have paid for your education. Quote:
Children and societal burdens. Agreed, a fitness and means system would be ideal. The enforcement of penalties would be heinous to some, I would speculate that the offended would be the culprits in this case. To me the road between enabling and encouraging is short in distance and direct in nature. So on that we disagree, I believe that the system encourages a lot of things through the enabling policies regulating the administration of the programs.
I don't see where you found a disagreement with me vis-a-vis encouraging and enablng. Quote:
I think that socialism is not an interpretative issue, it can be clearly defined. According to the Socialist Party, the U.K. is not a socialist government "For instance, in the past the Labour Party in Britain was often labeled "socialist". When the Labour Party was in government, people sometimes used to say "We have a socialist government," and even that Britain was socialist. But this was not true. Labour governments did not go beyond the boundaries of capitalism. The country remained capitalist."
This I most definitely disagree about. It is not simply an all or none definition. At what point does the prevalence of socialist policy define the entire enterprise to be socialist? There are elements of capitalism in China and Cuba. Are they thus capitalist countries? Nope.
--------------------
|
The False Diviner
proselytizing fool

Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 45
|
Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: zappaisgod]
#11118996 - 09/24/09 12:51 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Again, I was admittedly mistaken in my choice of words. That said, when I admit to wrong doing, anything further from you is unessential, and could be exposing you as an asshole. I will refrain from speculating in regard to your intent.
Sure, you could say that the G.I. Bill is part of the system, but I would consider that compensation for my service as opposed to a social aid. That compensation was a significant factor in my enlistment. As for the employer, it was his choice that served me well, he just happens to be an individual in the system.
You would be mistaken to think that I think that you should have paid for my education. You're assuming something that is just not true.
China had a purely communist planed economy until 1970 when privately owned enterprise was first allowed. That enterprise has grown considerable since then, but the huge cooperation's in China that would compare favorably with say Aetna or ExonMobile are government owned. Cuba, to my knowledge doesn't have anything on that scale.
The U.K. may have people with socialist ideas and agendas but the presence of universal health care and other programs just doesn't merit the label, as could be said in the case of China and capitalism. If you want to get real picky you could say that our social security system is socialist. Does that make this a socialist country? At it's introduction Roosevelt's Social Security Platform was vigilantly ridiculed as being socialistic. I could argue that our country is and has been socialist sense the early 1900's, if I use the same criteria you do in your labeling of the U.K. as a socialist country.
For your information, socialism according to the socialist party, really cant exist on a country by country basis. They believe that it would only be successful on an international scale.
Have a nice day, The False Diviner
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
|
Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: The False Diviner]
#11119063 - 09/24/09 01:03 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
The False Diviner said: Again, I was admittedly mistaken in my choice of words. That said, when I admit to wrong doing, anything further from you is unessential, and could be exposing you as an asshole. I will refrain from speculating in regard to your intent.
You admit to a poor choice of words. Yipee. Do you admit to being a pig who degrades women just by bragging about degrading women? This is like the all too common non-apology apology so popular these days.
For any further clarification of what I am see my title. For any further of clarification of what you are see a mirror.Quote:
Sure, you could say that the G.I. Bill is part of the system, but I would consider that compensation for my service as opposed to a social aid. That compensation was a significant factor in my enlistment. As for the employer, it was his choice that served me well, he just happens to be an individual in the system.
You would be mistaken to think that I think that you should have paid for my education. You're assuming something that is just not true.
I pay the public's bills. Everytime anybody wants something from the government they want it from me.Quote:
China had a purely communist planed economy until 1970 when privately owned enterprise was first allowed. That enterprise has grown considerable since then, but the huge cooperation's in China that would compare favorably with say Aetna or ExonMobile are government owned. Cuba, to my knowledge doesn't have anything on that scale.
The U.K. may have people with socialist ideas and agendas but the presence of universal health care and other programs just doesn't merit the label, as could be said in the case of China and capitalism. If you want to get real picky you could say that our social security system is socialist. Does that make this a socialist country? At it's introduction Roosevelt's Social Security Platform was vigilantly ridiculed as being socialistic. I could argue that our country is and has been socialist sense the early 1900's, if I use the same criteria you do in your labeling of the U.K. as a socialist country.
For your information, socialism according to the socialist party, really cant exist on a country by country basis. They believe that it would only be successful on an international scale.
I do not recall granting the Socialist party the power to define the words in the English language.
--------------------
|
The False Diviner
proselytizing fool

Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 45
|
Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: zappaisgod]
#11119298 - 09/24/09 01:47 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
I see, you wear your badge with pride. Congratulations, on the significance of that accomplishment. Conversely, I could give a rats ass what you think about me.
Not that I attempted to apologize, as I see that as a weakness, do you have a certain level of groveling that is required to execute an apology? Do you realize that admittance of guilt is not an apology?
With all the people in line looking for a handout these days, do you feel like everyone wants something from you, and how does that effect your mental well being?
I think you may be a bit confused on what socialism is. If you care to check yourself, you could read this . Although, this may be another attempt by socialist dictating definitions within the English language.
I can only conclude at this point in the debate that you have continuous failure to support your side with anything beyond opinion and assumptions. It would be pointless for me to proceed further.
Have a nice day, The False Diviner
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
|
Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: The False Diviner]
#11119500 - 09/24/09 02:19 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
The False Diviner said: I see, you wear your badge with pride. Congratulations, on the significance of that accomplishment. Conversely, I could give a rats ass what you think about me.
Not that I attempted to apologize, as I see that as a weakness, do you have a certain level of groveling that is required to execute an apology? Do you realize that admittance of guilt is not an apology?
Hence my characterization of it as phony baloney bullshit. It isn't me you should apologize to, anyway. It's all women since you seem to think that degrading them is something to brag about. Stay classy.Quote:
With all the people in line looking for a handout these days, do you feel like everyone wants something from you, and how does that effect your mental well being?
Not everyone is on the handout line. Unlike you.Quote:
I think you may be a bit confused on what socialism is. If you care to check yourself, you could read this . Although, this may be another attempt by socialist dictating definitions within the English language.
I can only conclude at this point in the debate that you have continuous failure to support your side with anything beyond opinion and assumptions. It would be pointless for me to proceed further.
I don't argue with you for your sake. I argue with you for the sake of the little children who might otherwise be polluted by your bilge.
As I have stated repeatedly, socialism v capitalism is a continuum. State controlled health care is socialist. Market controlled health care is not. I can produce other examples. At what point does it tip over into describing an entire state as socialist v capitalist? That is exactly a matter of opinion. Shouldn't you be out bragging about your latest donkey punch?
--------------------
|
The False Diviner
proselytizing fool

Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 45
|
Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: zappaisgod]
#11119875 - 09/24/09 03:17 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
It would be morally presumptuous for you to think I need to apologize to anybody.
I'm confused, exactly when did I have my hand out? Was it when I earned a scholorship with my GPA and entrance exam scores? When I completed my enlistment and received my G.I. Bill funds as compensation? Could it have been when I took out student loans and paid them off in full with interest? Or perhaps, when I worked flipping burgers to fund the rest of my education. Maybe, it was some public assistance that I have never had? At this point your attempting to characterize me with claims that you can not provide any evidence of, valid or not.
I could be wrong but it seems to me, that your crusade to protect the little children reading this forum from my bilge, is either futile or delusional, given the nature of these forums. Are you going extinguish my ideas with your superior intellect or your morally presumptive juju? Good luck with that.
Have a nice day, The False Diviner
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
|
Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: The False Diviner]
#11119967 - 09/24/09 03:32 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
The False Diviner said: It would be morally presumptuous for you to think I need to apologize to anybody.
I'm confused, exactly when did I have my hand out? Was it when I earned a scholorship with my GPA and entrance exam scores? When I completed my enlistment and received my G.I. Bill funds as compensation? Could it have been when I took out student loans and paid them off in full with interest? Or perhaps, when I worked flipping burgers to fund the rest of my education. Maybe, it was some public assistance that I have never had? At this point your attempting to characterize me with claims that you can not provide any evidence of, valid or not.
Did you or did you not advocate for greater public funding for college education? You may not be the one receiving the benefit but you sure do have your hand out.Quote:
I could be wrong but it seems to me, that your crusade to protect the little children reading this forum from my bilge, is either futile or delusional, given the nature of these forums. Are you going extinguish my ideas with your superior intellect or your morally presumptive juju? Good luck with that.
I have actually had an influence on the little children. And yes, my superior intellect along with my impeccable erudition and unparalleled logic skills will banish your turgid bilge back into the intellectual depths from which it unfortunately erupted like an unwelcome zit on prom night.
--------------------
|
Chespirito
Stranger



Registered: 02/13/09
Posts: 3,259
|
Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: zappaisgod]
#11120498 - 09/24/09 04:59 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zappaisgod said: And yes, my superior intellect along with my impeccable erudition and unparalleled logic skills will banish your turgid bilge back into the intellectual depths from which it unfortunately erupted like an unwelcome zit on prom night.
You do realize that once a zit erupts, you don't put the puss back into the skin right? That simile makes no sense at worst, and is just drivel at best.
|
The False Diviner
proselytizing fool

Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 45
|
Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Chespirito]
#11120820 - 09/24/09 06:07 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
I have actually had an influence on the little children.
On this forum? Unless you're furnishing our debate gone wild to children off site, I can't see the sanity in your crusade.
Back to the topic at hand, I'm against free market student loans. The reason that I'm against this is because I can find no reason that dividends should be payed to investors on the backs of citizens that are trying to get an education. I think that the profits are evident in the increased tax base that results from, the increased taxable incomes of college educated workers and the interest payed by the student.. You can label this as a socialist agenda if you like. In any event, your assertion that your tax dollar is being spent is not entirely accurate. When you extent credit in the form of a student loan, free market or otherwise you are making an investment. The problem with the banks and corporation like Sallie Mae controlling the lions share of student loans is a largely an issue of accessibility. I'm pretty sure that historically it has been harder for a minority to obtain credit, including student loans. If the Dept. of education wants to invest public funds on student loans I don't see the problem. I'm assuming that the return rate on student loans is higher than the loans that have been issued to other countries, for instance.
Never mind, that I see a certain amount of perversion in relation to Federal Family Education Loan Program (FFELP). My understanding of FFELP is that Sallie Mae,and banks derived profits from FFELP subsidies paid with our tax dollars. So the dividends being payed to investors is a handout from tax payer dollars. These FFELP lenders also managed to run the business model into the ground and had to be bailed out with your tax dollar to keep students in school.
If you can, feel free to debate. If not, please resume your crusade to banish my turgid bilge. I find it entertaining.
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
|
Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: The False Diviner]
#11121145 - 09/24/09 06:58 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Well, at least you got rid of that obnoxious "have a nice day" mandate.
So you hate profit on money? How do you stand on the idea of certain remote areas paying for a med students education in return for a certain number of years practice. Is that only good if they make a profit or if they lose money?
I would love to see some kind of study somewhere that confirms the idea that a bachelor's degree justifies the cost in taxes repaid. It's probably borderline justified in individual income, no less taxes.
And you wonder why I think you might be a socialist.
--------------------
|
The False Diviner
proselytizing fool

Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 45
|
Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: zappaisgod]
#11124300 - 09/25/09 08:52 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
No, I don't hate profit on money. What I don't approve of is shareholders receiving dividends that are a direct result of government subsidies. I also have a problem with executives being compensated on the backs of Government subsidies.
In a free market business model there are six conditions existing that keep CEO's and management in line:
- business failure
- market for corporate control
- alignment of the manager’s interests with those of the shareholders
- legal duties required under corporate law
- corporate governance by the board of directors
- votes by shareholders
The Federal Family Education Loan Program (FFELP) implemented in the 70's, is the defining factor of the current student loan business model. FFELP not only payed Sallie Mae and the banks subsidies (your tax dollar) to make low interest student loans, they guaranteed the student loans (again your tax dollar).
The mere existence of the FFELP, takes the first condition of free market off the board. Business failure is no longer a concern if the government guarantees the investment return with your tax dollar.
The 2007 financial aid officer incentive scandal, the 2008 secondary student loan market freeze (a result of the overall mortgage & lending collapse), and the 2008-2009 academic year taxpayer-funded rescue, take the remaining five free market conditions off the board. Admittedly, some more so than others.
At this point we are left with the differences separating a state owned enterprise from a state sponsored enterprise. Regardless, of the difference between the two, the fact is that, neither are free market enterprises.
With the free market business model gone we are left with three options on the table. Moving on, let us explore those options:
- The FFELP, not free market, failing, any resulting shareholder dividends are largely a result of tax payer moneys, and has failed requiring tax dollar funded rescue to keep students in school
- The pending legislation, not free market, tax dollars invested as opposed to be handed out as subsidies or cooperate rescue.
- A true free market student lending business model. No subsidies, no loan guarantees, no rescue.
Ideally, I would like to support the free market business model. Unfortunately given the current state of affairs it would not fly. The lenders would jack up the interest rate, significantly less people would be able to secure loans, and campus enrollment would plummet. The government would reallocate the tax dollar to grant programs which would rely solely on potential tax base increase as a means of return. The investor dividend would be free of tax payer money, but the tax payer money would still go out and with no investment return as capital. Unfortunately, all the above takes this option off the board for me.
Left with the other two non-free market options,I am supporting the current legislation over the FFELP. I would prefer to see my tax dollar invested with the possibility of capital gain as opposed to spent in the form of subsidies and bailouts.
Have a nice day, The False Diviner
|
The False Diviner
proselytizing fool

Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 45
|
Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: The False Diviner]
#11124434 - 09/25/09 09:30 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
How do you stand on the idea of certain remote areas paying for a med students education in return for a certain number of years practice. Is that only good if they make a profit or if they lose money?
Funny you should ask, my brother in law works under the Surgeon General as a doctor on an Indian Reservation. He has a G-something pay status which is about the same as being an officer in the military. I'm not sure if his service was ever tied to his education funding, and I'll be sure to ask next time we see each other. Not exactly the same thing your talking about so I'll move on to my response.
To some extent, it depends on the options available to the community. Moreover, what are the returns on the investment? I would tend to think that tuition for a term of service would not be enough. Ideally, I would be more supportive of a cut rate student loan, living wage salary, and a term of service.
The False Diviner
|
Baby_Hitler
Errorist




Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,660
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 6 hours, 37 minutes
|
Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Seuss]
#11132359 - 09/26/09 03:45 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Seuss said:
Yes. Why should I be paying for your kids education? (Please don't give me the song and dance about how someday, when I am older, the younger population will somehow be helping me and that by educating them, I am investing in my own future.)
Really.
So how do you feel about public K-12 education?
-------------------- This space for rent
|
shinear
experimental


Registered: 02/28/22
Posts: 100
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
|
Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Statisticons_win]
#27785865 - 05/20/22 02:37 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Statisticons_win said: Apparently the government has wrested control of the student loan market from the hands of capitalism, and deposited it quite firmly in the Dept of Edu. Is this another Marxist coup?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090917/pl_nm/us_studentloans_house_3
Nice debate over 12 years ago
Now that the want of socialism is instilled in our young and our current government wants to pay student loans (the loans, not pay back the money hard working people paid)
who had it right or wrong.
If any of the OG debaters are still on would love to see the long term and if you still feel the same.
I have not read the whole thing word for word yet, if the OG debaters show up I will.
I want to read old and new at same time for comparison, no criticism on either side just our god given and constitution guaranteed right to debate our opinions.
I for one have never been very liberal but was considerably more so 12 years ago, my wife lost over 20 years in student loans at a major bank when the government took it away from the private sector.
From what I can tell the takeover did nothing to help students just made it more costly and a drain on the taxpayer.
--------------------
|
The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 34,046
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 19 minutes, 12 seconds
|
Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: shinear]
#27785963 - 05/20/22 04:04 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Why though
--------------------
|
OutsideOfMyMind
LSD Self Administrative Director


Registered: 10/05/20
Posts: 5,546
Last seen: 3 days, 18 hours
|
Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Seuss]
#27790077 - 05/23/22 11:11 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Seuss said: > More bang for the buck. Is that a bad thing???
Yes. Why should I be paying for your kids education? (Please don't give me the song and dance about how someday, when I am older, the younger population will somehow be helping me and that by educating them, I am investing in my own future.)
> So why was SAFRA a bad thing again?
No idea. I'm not really fluent on homosexual issues in the Islamic world.
So are you okay with living in a country where people are completely uneducated? Because if you are then I think you should move to Mexico or guatemala. You can damn well bet that in my older years I would definitely want to be taken care of by someone who is well educated rather than these God damn run of the mill average Joe shmoes we have.
|
Mach z 800
Stranger


Registered: 12/04/15
Posts: 1,580
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
|
Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
#27790759 - 05/24/22 02:47 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Im all for this i know a few people with 40k or of debt. An this will get biden 2024 victory on top of that.
|
Kryptos
Stranger

Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,847
Last seen: 1 hour, 26 minutes
|
Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: OutsideOfMyMind]
#27793424 - 05/26/22 08:35 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
OutsideOfMyMind said:
Quote:
Seuss said: > More bang for the buck. Is that a bad thing???
Yes. Why should I be paying for your kids education? (Please don't give me the song and dance about how someday, when I am older, the younger population will somehow be helping me and that by educating them, I am investing in my own future.)
> So why was SAFRA a bad thing again?
No idea. I'm not really fluent on homosexual issues in the Islamic world.
So are you okay with living in a country where people are completely uneducated? Because if you are then I think you should move to Mexico or guatemala. You can damn well bet that in my older years I would definitely want to be taken care of by someone who is well educated rather than these God damn run of the mill average Joe shmoes we have.
Lol nobody is actually okay with living in an uneducated country. People arguing against student loan forgiveness want to have their cake and eat it too. This is most obvious by the growing freakout over falling birthrates.
People against loan forgiveness want the benefits of college educated populations, but don't actually want to pay the costs associated with it.
Come to think of it, I can't think of a more purely capitalist idea.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,514
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Kryptos]
#27793573 - 05/26/22 10:55 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Until a better system is developed, capitalism is the best we've got.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 34,046
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 19 minutes, 12 seconds
|
Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Enlil] 1
#27793667 - 05/26/22 12:39 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
|
|
--------------------
|
|