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Statisticons_win
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What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law?
#11099554 - 09/21/09 10:36 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Apparently the government has wrested control of the student loan market from the hands of capitalism, and deposited it quite firmly in the Dept of Edu. Is this another Marxist coup?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090917/pl_nm/us_studentloans_house_3
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zappaisgod
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Statisticons_win]
#11099728 - 09/21/09 11:15 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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That coup took place decades ago with Sallie Mae.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Statisticons_win]
#11100327 - 09/21/09 01:14 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hmmm. This keeps student loan interest rates low, transfers tax dollars from big corporations so students so they can receive more aid, saves taxpayers an estimated $50 billion, and it does nothing to stop banks from making student loans. Why is this a bad thing again???
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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zappaisgod
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#11100800 - 09/21/09 02:38 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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How does it save taxpayers $50B? Methinks you might be a tad off there. How could it save taxpayers $5? Why are taxpayers in this business at all?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: zappaisgod]
#11102959 - 09/21/09 08:51 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: How does it save taxpayers $50B? Methinks you might be a tad off there. How could it save taxpayers $5?
It eliminates Government subsidies paid to the "middle man" (big banks), and allows the Government to collect all interest payments.
The Congressional Budget Office actually estimated that this program could save $87 billion, but opponents argued that it would "only" save $47 billion. I took the lower estimate.
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zappaisgod said: Why are taxpayers in this business at all?
Because the majority of Americans currently don't mind helping poor kids get an education.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#11105620 - 09/22/09 09:51 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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> The Congressional Budget Office actually estimated that this program could save $87 billion
... and how much does it currently cost the tax payer? Zappa's point stands, if taxpayer money is going towards college education, then nothing they do saves the taxpayer any money. It simply reduces the cost to the taxpayer.
> Why are taxpayers in this business at all?
Because banks profit when college students enter life as indentured servants with massive loans hanging over their heads. The financial institutions tend to have a large sway with the government due to corrupt politicians and asinine regulations, thus taxpayer money goes towards protecting the racket. The people accept this because they have been convinced that a college education is necessary to succeed in the modern word (rather than learning a trade) and anything to help reduce the cost of that education seems to be a blessing.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Seuss]
#11105684 - 09/22/09 10:08 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: ... and how much does it currently cost the tax payer? Zappa's point stands, if taxpayer money is going towards college education, then nothing they do saves the taxpayer any money. It simply reduces the cost to the taxpayer.
Ok, fair enough. More bang for the buck. Is that a bad thing???
Quote:
Seuss said: > Why are taxpayers in this business at all?
Because banks profit when college students enter life as indentured servants with massive loans hanging over their heads. The financial institutions tend to have a large sway with the government due to corrupt politicians and asinine regulations, thus taxpayer money goes towards protecting the racket. The people accept this because they have been convinced that a college education is necessary to succeed in the modern word (rather than learning a trade) and anything to help reduce the cost of that education seems to be a blessing.
Again, we can agree agree. So why was SAFRA a bad thing again?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#11110978 - 09/23/09 05:17 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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> More bang for the buck. Is that a bad thing???
Yes. Why should I be paying for your kids education? (Please don't give me the song and dance about how someday, when I am older, the younger population will somehow be helping me and that by educating them, I am investing in my own future.)
> So why was SAFRA a bad thing again?
No idea. I'm not really fluent on homosexual issues in the Islamic world.
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The False Diviner
proselytizing fool

Registered: 09/22/09
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Seuss] 1
#11111654 - 09/23/09 10:06 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yes. Why should I be paying for your kids education? (Please don't give me the song and dance about how someday, when I am older, the younger population will somehow be helping me and that by educating them, I am investing in my own future.)
Just a few points of interest here. One, you're not paying for other peoples kids education education. Unless you are making a lot of money your taxes don't cover the amount required to send one kid to college. At best the fact that you pay taxes is only an indication that you are a part of the tax base as opposed to being a tax burden. Secondly, once you pay your taxes it's not your money any more. Yes you have representation in the process but the money is not yours. Thirdly, if you think that education should be a matter of privilege can I assume that you believe that health care, hunger, and civil rights are all a matter of privilege as well.
Back to taxes, their is really only two sides to the coin. You either pay taxes and are part of the contributing tax base, or you don't pay taxes and you are part of the burden on the base. One of the very useful ways of decreasing the burdens and increasing the contributions is through a college education. Education is one of the tools or advantages if you like, that can turn a tax burden into a tax payer. Therefor, this makes the money spent a good investment for our fiscal well being.
Furthermore, if you allow education monies to become dividends for investors you are loosing a portion of the money to those dividends that could be put back into the system. On a global level, if we don't educate our children and young adults we lose the ability to compete on that field of play.
Have a nice day, THe False Diviner
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Seuss]
#11111835 - 09/23/09 10:49 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: Why should I be paying for your kids education? (Please don't give me the song and dance about how someday, when I am older, the younger population will somehow be helping me and that by educating them, I am investing in my own future.)
You're asking a question that's completely irrelevant to the discussion. We've been helping the poor get an education for decades. That's not changing and cutting off aid isn't even under debate. What's changing is that we're now going to do it smarter and more cost effectively. I ask again, what's wrong with that?
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Seuss said: > So why was SAFRA a bad thing again?
No idea. I'm not really fluent on homosexual issues in the Islamic world.
Very funny, but a nice dodge to the question (SAFRA = Student Aid and Fiscal Responsibility Act)
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: The False Diviner]
#11111881 - 09/23/09 10:56 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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> you're not paying for other peoples kids education education
I don't care how you split it, if tax money is going towards college, and I pay taxes, then I am helping to pay for other people's kids college. I might only be paying a fraction of a cent, but it is still money that I earned going towards the benefit of their children.
> can I assume that you believe that health care, hunger, and civil rights are all a matter of privilege as well
College, not education, is what we are discussing; and yes, I believe that college is a matter of privilege. Anybody that has good academic grades from high school can go to college for free through merit based scholarships. As I said in my original post, college has been sold as a "must have to succeed in life" rather than education for the best of the best.
We should be pushing trade school, rather than college, for the majority of people graduating from high school. Professional trades can pay very well and do not create an indentured servant that owes the banking system (because of the obscene loans taken to get through college) the first ten to twenty years of their life.
Anybody can get immediately life saving health care by going to the emergency room regardless of being able to pay or not.
Hunger is unfortunate in the US and shouldn't be an issue. I don't agree with "life time" welfare handouts for people that are too lazy to work, but these aren't really the people that are going hungry. Most of the hungry are homeless, and most of the homeless have mental issues, which makes it a difficult problem to solve.
I'm not sure what you mean by civil rights being a privilege. Everybody, regardless of race, sex, religion, etc, should have equal rights and opportunities. This means no "reverse discrimination" (which is a stupid name- lets face it, discrimination is discrimination), no affirmative action, etc. Equal rights for everybody, period.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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The False Diviner
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Registered: 09/22/09
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Seuss]
#11112936 - 09/23/09 02:19 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Ok, so as you see it there should be no public fund going towards college education because if anyone with good enough grades can get a scholarship to attend college, right? Wrong, that's just not true. My GPA on graduation was a 4.0, and yes I received some scholarship money. Those funds covered about 5% of my college education. If it wasn't for Grants and Student Loans, I would not have been able to attend college. Thankfully, I was able to avoid a large amount of student loans and was able to pay them off rather quickly.
As for the trade schools and trade unions and apprenticeship programs, I would like to point out the fact that trade schools are funded just the same as colleges as for grants and loans. As for the unions, most of them have reduced their apprenticeship acceptance numbers greatly due to the lack of work. As in they can't keep their journeymen working so they have an excess of qualified workers.
Moreover, people with college educations earn at a higher level than those that have no college education. Therefor, your money that is paying for other peoples children to be education, in fact lessens your burden. Every time the tax base grows because someone gains a higher level of education, thus increasing the amount of taxes they pay, your percentage of contribution becomes smaller.
I am suspecting that the reason you are having trouble with this is your " I don't care how you split it " attitude. Hubris is what is coming to mind here. I sense that you are so full of hubris that you can't openly look past your emotion fueled opinion (unhappy with paying for the education of other people's children) to see that this might actually be a good thing for you if you get past emotions.
Not to hijack the tread but....
Conversely, your bit about "Anybody can get immediately life saving health care by going to the emergency room regardless of being able to pay or not" really shows the depth of your hubris. That statement would lead me to believe, that you think health care beyond life or death situations is a matter of privilege, as well. Flatly, I believe until proven otherwise, that every citizen and documented immigrant of the United States has a right to equal health care.
Keep having a nice day,
The False Diviner
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zappaisgod
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: The False Diviner]
#11113159 - 09/23/09 03:00 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
The False Diviner said: Ok, so as you see it there should be no public fund going towards college education because if anyone with good enough grades can get a scholarship to attend college, right? Wrong, that's just not true. My GPA on graduation was a 4.0, and yes I received some scholarship money. Those funds covered about 5% of my college education. If it wasn't for Grants and Student Loans, I would not have been able to attend college. Thankfully, I was able to avoid a large amount of student loans and was able to pay them off rather quickly.
Good for you. Now tell me again about the system that is not broke that the we must fix with increased government intervention.Quote:
As for the trade schools and trade unions and apprenticeship programs, I would like to point out the fact that trade schools are funded just the same as colleges as for grants and loans. As for the unions, most of them have reduced their apprenticeship acceptance numbers greatly due to the lack of work. As in they can't keep their journeymen working so they have an excess of qualified workers.
Trade schools are crap. If you want to learn a trade start working in it as a laborer. You will learn more and make money at the same time. Once there are jobs again, that is.Quote:
Moreover, people with college educations earn at a higher level than those that have no college education. Therefor, your money that is paying for other peoples children to be education, in fact lessens your burden. Every time the tax base grows because someone gains a higher level of education, thus increasing the amount of taxes they pay, your percentage of contribution becomes smaller.
There is no way that the increased income that can statistically be ascribed to a college education will ever come close to generating enough increased taxes to make up for the subsidized education cost. Maybe for doctors and engineers. Social workers and English majors? Not in a million years. Those degrees are a poor investment when considered strictly in financial terms.Quote:
I am suspecting that the reason you are having trouble with this is your " I don't care how you split it " attitude. Hubris is what is coming to mind here. I sense that you are so full of hubris that you can't openly look past your emotion fueled opinion (unhappy with paying for the education of other people's children) to see that this might actually be a good thing for you if you get past emotions.
I don't know what the fuck your babbling about here but there is nothing particularly emotional about not wanting to have more and more of one's hard-earned dollars snatched to be given to others for some nebulous societal benefit. As an FYI, college students are not children. They are adults. Usually pretty stupid adults but that comes with the age.Quote:
Not to hijack the tread but....
Conversely, your bit about "Anybody can get immediately life saving health care by going to the emergency room regardless of being able to pay or not" really shows the depth of your hubris. That statement would lead me to believe, that you think health care beyond life or death situations is a matter of privilege, as well. Flatly, I believe until proven otherwise, that every citizen and documented immigrant of the United States has a right to equal health care.
You have the right to buy health care. I have no obligation to buy it for you. Nor do you have a right to have the best of all possible health care if you can't pay for it. How could everybody possibly have equal health care when doctors nurses and hospitals all have varying degrees of competence? Anything else you think you should have equal, Komrade? Ferrari, maybe? Better house/apt.? Filet mignon instead of ramen?Quote:
Keep having a nice day,
The False Diviner
And you have a nice day, too.
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The False Diviner
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Registered: 09/22/09
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: zappaisgod]
#11114348 - 09/23/09 05:53 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Dude, I can't say that I find your position to be filled with wisdom. Again, hubris is an accurate description of your behavior. You're so prideful that you cant get beyond you. I'm gathering that you think I'm liberal, socialist, need assistance, or maybe I'm a burden to the tax base and you need to pay my way. Sitting the record straight, I have more than adequate income, served my time in the military, and have earned my way in every aspect. The difference between you and me is a matter of logic. I look at the logic of things and don't react emotionally to anything that doesn't benefit from that emotion. I'm glad that you resorted to the quote it all and insult discourse, just proves my point further. To clarify, you and others that behave like you, are the less fortunate in the equation. You lack the ability to debate intelligently with those that disagree with you. I would like to share a little fact with you that ought to get your blood boiling. Sixty-six percent of all undergraduates received some type of financial aid in 2007–08, according to the Dept. of Education. You're paying for two thirds of all college students to go to college. Two thirds, you should stop paying your taxes all together. I know that when I went to college on your dime, I graduate on the deans list, bought lots of weed and generally degraded the daughters of guys like you in every way imaginable.
Have a wonderful evening, The False Diviner
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: zappaisgod]
#11114942 - 09/23/09 07:11 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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> Trade schools are crap.
The modern corporate versions that are advertised on Sunday morning are, but not all. I'm talking about vocational training, such as nursing school and the like, not the "get a job working as a nurses aid, or a legal assistant, or a ditch digger, or a tree hugger... just send us money and we will forward a certification to you after eight short weeks" kinda crap.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: The False Diviner]
#11115126 - 09/23/09 07:36 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
The False Diviner said: Dude, I can't say that I find your position to be filled with wisdom. I will never be the same. Again, hubris is an accurate description of your behavior. You were actually using that in response to Seuss. By the way, buy another word, OK. You're so prideful that you cant get beyond you. No, I am trying to get beyond you, as in everybody who wants me to buy them shit they didn't earn. I'm gathering that you think I'm liberal, socialist, need assistance, or maybe I'm a burden to the tax base and you need to pay my way. You certainly seem to have some liberal ideas, no? Like equal health care for all regardless of their contribution. Positively Marxian, if you ask me. Sitting the record straight, I have more than adequate income, served my time in the military, and have earned my way in every aspect. The difference between you and me is a matter of logic. I look at the logic of things and don't react emotionally to anything that doesn't benefit from that emotion. My how deliriously pompous of you. Quite hubristic, neh? I'm glad that you resorted to the quote it all and insult discourse, just proves my point further. To clarify, you and others that behave like you, are the less fortunate in the equation. You lack the ability to debate intelligently with those that disagree with you. I would like to share a little fact with you that ought to get your blood boiling. Sixty-six percent of all undergraduates received some type of financial aid in 2007�08, according to the Dept. of Education. You're paying for two thirds of all college students to go to college. Well no. 66% receiving some type of aid does not equal 66% of the total bill, Mr. Spock. Two thirds, you should stop paying your taxes all together. I wish. I know that when I went to college on your dime, I graduate on the deans list, bought lots of weed and generally degraded the daughters of guys like you in every way imaginable. Like I said, I'm happy for ya. Now tell me again why the system that served you so well must be changed, Mr. Spock. By the way, you didn't degrade any daughters of guys like me. If you had you wouldn't be typing.
Have a wonderful evening, The False Diviner
Have a wonderful evening, Mr. Spock
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zappaisgod
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: Seuss]
#11115148 - 09/23/09 07:39 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: > Trade schools are crap.
The modern corporate versions that are advertised on Sunday morning are, but not all. I'm talking about vocational training, such as nursing school and the like, not the "get a job working as a nurses aid, or a legal assistant, or a ditch digger, or a tree hugger... just send us money and we will forward a certification to you after eight short weeks" kinda crap.
Nursing school? I didn't even know they had them. I thought it was regular college. Legal assistant too, for that matter. At any rate I thought by trade school you meant, well, trades. Electrician, plumber, that kinda thing.
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The False Diviner
proselytizing fool

Registered: 09/22/09
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: zappaisgod]
#11115534 - 09/23/09 09:09 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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We all agree that trade schools are crap, cool.
Like I said, the system did not serve me well. Financial aid paid for roughly 5% of my education. I earned another portion serving in the Army. I took out another 25% in student loans and payed for the rest of it through working close to full time, flipping burgers.
I certainly did not imply that 66% was in anyway representative of the total bill. I clearly stated that 66% of all undergraduates received financial aid. I'm having difficulty understanding how you got from a to b on that one.
Speaking of liberals, socialist and Marxism, the fact of the matter is that less than one third of the countries that have universal health care are identifiable as having a Socialist or Marxist ruling party.
Can you assume that I am a liberal, possibly, but I'll be happy to clear that up for you. I think that people should have to qualify through merit to become parents. When children are born out side this ideal they should be placed with people who qualify as parents, can't have children or would like more. Just like it is illegal to shit out in public, you shouldn't be able to burden the tax base with uncared for children. I think that certain church activities should not be tax exempt as charities due to the act of proselytizing which to me is recruiting. Simply stated that your soup kitchen can be considered charitable as long as it is free from proselytism. I think that religious organizations, cooperations, businesses or any other special interest groups should be totally and unilaterally unrepresented in our government with the exception of the legal branch. The government should represent public interest only and the public interest should be the interest of citizens or documented immigrants only. I don't think I'm liberal at all.
By the way, either in person or behind a keyboard trying to be scary or intimidating isn't going to accomplish anything with me.
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zappaisgod
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: The False Diviner]
#11118231 - 09/24/09 09:54 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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I will address your last first. I wasn't trying to intimidate you or scare you. My daughter is too young for her to have been a member of the group of girls you victimized. By the way, just what was the point of that remark, troll?
What do you mean it didn't serve you well? It seems to me it served you remarkably well. Just what do you think you should be entitled to? Would you like my PIN number?
Children and societal burdens. Although I, too, believe you should have to pass a fitness and means test to reproduce, I also realize that that is a heinous, imposed stricture. Who judges? In China, it's the Party. Here? Nobody and the system actually encourages dependent breeders. Rather than forbid a behavior, I would prefer to stop enabling it. That would go a long way toward extinguishing it. Not completely but at least discourage it.
Marxism/socialism is a continuum open to interpretation. I think the UK is socialist. I assume that is not one of the countries on your list.
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The False Diviner
proselytizing fool

Registered: 09/22/09
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Re: What are y'alls thoughtson the changes to student loan law? [Re: zappaisgod]
#11118545 - 09/24/09 11:13 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Actually, I've never victimized anyone on the level you're referencing. My encounters with women have and always will be with full consent. There is an absence of victimization when a person exercises choice. I've never been one that has crossed the line with consent and its relation to intoxication. Admittedly , the use of the word degrading was incorrect on my part. I would have been better served to say something like "lots of wild sex".
In regards to the system and how it served me, I would argue that I succeeded on my own merits. I didn't succeed as a result of the small amount of financial aid I received. In fact, it was the rewards for my military service and good fortune that allowed me to succeed. I was fortunate in that I found a job with an employer who supported my studies to the extent of bending his business around those studies. The debt and gratitude I owe lies with that business owner and not the system.
I'm not clear on why you think I have a sense of entitlement. I provide for myself and my family with the fruits of my labor. I'm not going to compare my junk with yours. I'm happy with my junk, and I am in no way envious of yours, so put your ATM card away.
Children and societal burdens. Agreed, a fitness and means system would be ideal. The enforcement of penalties would be heinous to some, I would speculate that the offended would be the culprits in this case. To me the road between enabling and encouraging is short in distance and direct in nature. So on that we disagree, I believe that the system encourages a lot of things through the enabling policies regulating the administration of the programs.
I think that socialism is not an interpretative issue, it can be clearly defined. According to the Socialist Party, the U.K. is not a socialist government "For instance, in the past the Labour Party in Britain was often labeled "socialist". When the Labour Party was in government, people sometimes used to say "We have a socialist government," and even that Britain was socialist. But this was not true. Labour governments did not go beyond the boundaries of capitalism. The country remained capitalist."
Have a Nice Day, The False Diviner
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