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Project
Ride the Spiral


Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 1,429
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
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Re: Can anyone explain exactly the necessity for a pressure cooker? [Re: lmfsmoke]
#11069859 - 09/16/09 12:25 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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This reminds me of a thread made by a user called mama. It was something about making a checklist for PF tek and it was waaaay overkill. 
Here it is: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/10851054/fpart/1/vc/1
Ridiculous... And people kept posting in it which made it stay on the first page for a week.
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doug funny
traveler of both time and space



Registered: 08/17/09
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Re: Can anyone explain exactly the necessity for a pressure cooker? [Re: Project]
#11069886 - 09/16/09 12:28 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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you're probably the same guy who advocated the Oven-Tek
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nastos
secret secretions




Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 7,371
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Re: Can anyone explain exactly the necessity for a pressure cooker? [Re: Project]
#11070277 - 09/16/09 01:30 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Project said: This reminds me of a thread made by a user called mama. It was something about making a checklist for PF tek and it was waaaay overkill. 
Here it is: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/10851054/fpart/1/vc/1
Ridiculous... And people kept posting in it which made it stay on the first page for a week. 
Lol, oh i remember mama.. my pm box is filled with questions from her.
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Doc_T
Random Dude




Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
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Re: Can anyone explain exactly the necessity for a pressure cooker? [Re: laserpig]
#11072456 - 09/16/09 07:51 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
laserpig said: I've got a pretty big ego when it comes to problems of technical ingenuity, so at this point I still refuse to believe that I can't find a way around the use of a pressure cooker --
People have been working on this problem for hundreds of years. You find a safe, effective, cheap way to sterilize and store food that doesn't involve pressure or radiation and doesn't affect the properties of the product being sterilized, and you'll never have to work again. You can retire after that and grow mushrooms full time.
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure



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Re: Can anyone explain exactly the necessity for a pressure cooker? [Re: laserpig]
#11073008 - 09/16/09 09:25 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
laserpig said: And I'll have proven that a PC is not necessary for sterilization.
You will be in the company of about half the noobs who have every joined here. Proving a pressure cooker necessary while trying to do the opposite, seems to be a right of passage.
From an engineering/physics point of view, here's why your plan won't work. As workman correctly said, the pressure raises the boiling point of water, so that the water in your grains remains in a liquid state in the pressure cooker, even though it's at 250F/121C. Therefore, it's not the pressure that kills the bacterial endospores, it's the temperature. The pressure simply allows the temperature to rise while preserving the moisture in the grains.
The oven is at normal atmospheric pressure, therefore if you raise the temperature above the boiling point of 100C, the water will turn to steam and escape, leaving your grains toasted. There's also no way in hell the jar will exceed 212F/100C until all the water has boiled out of your pan, thus the grains will be ruined. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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laserpig
Weedmaster_P

Registered: 04/28/09
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Re: Can anyone explain exactly the necessity for a pressure cooker? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#11074871 - 09/17/09 03:40 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I won't risk my grow on a cheap home-brewed method if I can't be confident that it works, and without serious testing I really can't be confident that it will work -- especially if you guys, who I acknowledge are much more experienced than I am, are so certain it will fail.
Therefore, I'm going to attempt a test. I'll dampen a small towel and put it in an empty grain jar (with tyvek filter), then I will completely encase the jar in aluminum foil and bake it in the oven. If after one hour plus a cooling period the towel has not lost a significant amount of moisture, I will conclude that this method at least might be viable, and then go on to conduct a grain test just as soon as my rye arrives (by mail).
My reasoning: - jar temperature will certainly exceed 212 Fahrenheit if placed in an oven set between 250 and 300 - all moisture in the jar will be converted to steam - steam is not a bursting hazard because it can exit through the filter (into the small amount of space within the foil wrap) - tight, full-coverage aluminum foil wrap will keep some* steam from evaporating out into the oven - therefore, the grain will be exposed to a steamy environment significantly hotter than 212 F for a period of at least 40 minutes**, and it will be sterilized
* If "some" is above whatever threshold applies, enough steam will be retained to prevent the grain from drying. If "some" is lower, too much steam will be lost and I'll get dry grain.
** I assume that it will take no more than 20-some minutes for a grain jar to reach oven temperature -- after that, I assume 40 minutes is a fairly reasonable minimum amount of time required to achieve sterilization, with a longer period of time being better. Longer sterilization times will of course allow more steam to escape, so it's possible that a certain amount of fine-tuning with experimental batches will be necessary.
The only potential failure point I can see is the foil wrap. Obviously, I cannot assume that encasing the jar in foil will necessarily retain moisture as I hope it will, but that's what I aim to find out with this test. If the foil works, then I honestly think this idea is solid.
Your responses have all convinced me that the pot-with-boiling-water-in-the-oven is not worth trying. If my updated idea is equally worthless then I would be very grateful to anyone patient enough to explain why this should be so.
Thank you, everyone who has helped me so far and continues to help me now. Your advice really is invaluable.
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veda_sticks
Cultivator




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Re: Can anyone explain exactly the necessity for a pressure cooker? [Re: laserpig]
#11074898 - 09/17/09 03:55 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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The 1 thing thats not been mentioned is that air, particularly dry air is a poor conductor of heat.
-------------------- PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666 Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek Franks Proper Pasturisation Tek Franks Spawning To Bulk - Monotub Professor Pinheads RTV Injection Port Tek Foo Mans No Soak WBS Prep Tek
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The Centre
I am



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Re: Can anyone explain exactly the necessity for a pressure cooker? [Re: Shrazoom]
#11074930 - 09/17/09 04:21 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Do you need a PC for non-grain bulk?
I mean, how about using a 1:2 ratio of BRF to bulk... Sure BRF isn't the best spawn but if you use a very high ratio then I'm sure it can work.
I live at sea level btw.
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Doc_T
Random Dude




Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
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Re: Can anyone explain exactly the necessity for a pressure cooker? [Re: laserpig]
#11075028 - 09/17/09 05:32 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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You can do BRF with just boiling. Use half pint jars like always, then crumble and spawn.
Quote:
laserpig said: ** I assume that it will take no more than 20-some minutes for a grain jar to reach oven temperature -- after that, I assume 40 minutes is a fairly reasonable minimum amount of time required to achieve sterilization, with a longer period of time being better.
I sterilize grain jars for 2 hors with pressurized steam. I can't see how you're going to do it in 40 minutes. And the idea that a jar in a 250 degree oven is going to reach temps in 20 minutes is ludicrous- it makes me wonder you've ever baked anything.
I do sincerely wish you luck with this, it would be cool if it would work. Bt you don't have the knowledge you need to make it work.
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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metalshroom
Monotuber


Registered: 06/02/07
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Re: Can anyone explain exactly the necessity for a pressure cooker? [Re: Doc_T]
#11075107 - 09/17/09 06:27 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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listen to everyone else and buy one now, because you WILL fail and quit.
have a nice day
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slartibartfast
Stranger


Registered: 05/13/08
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Re: Can anyone explain exactly the necessity for a pressure cooker? [Re: Doc_T]
#11075118 - 09/17/09 06:34 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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The number of Bacterial endospores in grain is mind boggeling (Stament quotes 50000-100000 per gram) add in another 100 thousand or so other potential nasties in there and it becomes apparent that you have to kill a remarkable number of contams in order to have any hope of producing clean jars. Even killing 99.99 percent of these critters will still leave plenty alive to multiply and overpower the grain jars in pretty short order. while i can't see an easier way to sterilize the jars than a pressure cooker you might want to try and tip the odds in your favour by starting some jars of Liquid Culture (LQ) so that the desired mycellium can colonize faster and hopefully stand a slightly higher chance of outgrowing any of the nasties left in the grain. The alluminum foil wrap will still vent steam and as long as the steam can escape to an area of lower pressure (ie the oven) temps simply won't get high enough for long enough to kill the endospores. Having the mad scientist genes myself i do hope you figure it out and experimentation is a great way to learn but i honestly do believe you would be way better off just grabing a cheap pressure cooker but i am guessing this isn't an attempt to save cash but more an effort to find new ways to do things and i can respect that so good luck. Slart
-------------------- Pressure cooking shit to kill shit so i can knock it up with my shit to grow shit. Trades welcome
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laserpig
Weedmaster_P

Registered: 04/28/09
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Re: Can anyone explain exactly the necessity for a pressure cooker? [Re: Doc_T]
#11075869 - 09/17/09 10:32 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Well, it's as much about the money as anything else. If I could find a pressure cooker for $20, I wouldn't be bothering with this shit.
Quote:
Doc_T said: I sterilize grain jars for 2 hors with pressurized steam. I can't see how you're going to do it in 40 minutes. And the idea that a jar in a 250 degree oven is going to reach temps in 20 minutes is ludicrous- it makes me wonder you've ever baked anything.
I do sincerely wish you luck with this, it would be cool if it would work. Bt you don't have the knowledge you need to make it work.
Thanks for the tip. Those numbers were total guesswork, so I'm glad to be corrected.
If I'm gonna need these jars in the oven for over two hours, then I can see how moisture retention may prove impossible.
I'm gonna go ahead and conduct my towel test, and I'll keep it in the oven for two hours when I do. If it doesn't work, I'll renew my search for the cheapest pressure cooker I can find. If it does work (ie, if the towel stays moist) ... what would you guys make of it?
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Doc_T
Random Dude




Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
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Re: Can anyone explain exactly the necessity for a pressure cooker? [Re: laserpig]
#11075907 - 09/17/09 10:39 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
laserpig said: If it does work ..
You'll be famous. 
Edit-
Quote:
laserpig said: Well, it's as much about the money as anything else. If I could find a pressure cooker for $20, I wouldn't be bothering with this
I've found two different PCs at thrift stores for less than $10. And that's not a record, nowhere near.
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
Edited by Doc_T (09/17/09 10:40 AM)
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laserpig
Weedmaster_P

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Re: Can anyone explain exactly the necessity for a pressure cooker? [Re: Doc_T]
#11076113 - 09/17/09 11:16 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Towel test jar, placed in the oven at 10:10 AM, oven set to 275 F.
In two hours I'll shut off the oven and let it cool. Once it does ... we'll see what happens.
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xtofury
Stranger


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Re: Can anyone explain exactly the necessity for a pressure cooker? [Re: laserpig]
#11076368 - 09/17/09 11:59 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
laserpig said: Unless StogieSam is outright lying to us, I'm pretty sure his post shot your theory to shit.
I'm almost completely confident that I'm right, so I'll tell you what: I'm gonna go ahead and do it, and in a couple weeks when all my jars are full of wonderful cloudy-white mycelia, I'll report back and let you guys know. And I'll have proven that a PC is not necessary for sterilization.
Isn't this stuff taught in grade 9 physics and chemistry classes anymore? stogiesam, whoever he is or whatever he's done, probably only proved that it is possible to have some mycellial colonies OCCASIONALLY out compete and gain foothold during improper sterilization technique. Is that the guy that got 3 out of 10 jars without a pc? Cuz if so those numbers should be much higher. Either way, things don't technically have to be 100% sterile otherwise mycellium wouldn't grow on it's own out in the wild without our assistance. Most fungii (including molds) have defense mechanisms against contaminants.
In fact, the reason why trichoderma is nasty is because it produces a fungicidal compound which is also handy in fighting fungal infections of plants. This antifungicidal component makes it much easier for trichoderma to gain a foothold on a colonized substrate.
Either way, brf would have been a better choice, this no pc idea just sounds like a ride on the failboat.
Why the heck are so many people so friggin cheap, doesn't anybody have a job? Isn't the wally check paying you enough?
Edited by xtofury (09/17/09 12:07 PM)
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laserpig
Weedmaster_P

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Re: Can anyone explain exactly the necessity for a pressure cooker? [Re: xtofury]
#11076381 - 09/17/09 12:02 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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StogieSam's results actually have no bearing on what I'm doing here. I think he used rice flour and verm, which is way easier to sterilize than grain. I was wrong when I said his results proved anything.
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rmh26
Stranger


Registered: 07/29/09
Posts: 37
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Re: Can anyone explain exactly the necessity for a pressure cooker? [Re: laserpig]
#11076399 - 09/17/09 12:05 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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The thermal conductivity of a gas is a strong function of temperature.
But more importantly there is no way to heat your substrate above the bp without it drying out. So if you need the temp to be above 212 for sterilization then you can't just heat it up in an oven.
Although maybe you could let it dry out reach like 250 and then rehydrate it with distilled water but you would probablly end up burning the substrate anyways.
buy a pc
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laserpig
Weedmaster_P

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Re: Can anyone explain exactly the necessity for a pressure cooker? [Re: rmh26]
#11076474 - 09/17/09 12:24 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Correction: there is no way to heat my substrate above 212 without its moisture evaporating.
Just because the water in the jar will no longer be liquid does not mean it won't be there. If -- and this is the real if, which I'm testing at this moment -- my foil wrap keeps most of the steam inside, then the grain will NOT dry out. Its water will evaporate into steam, the steam will get hot, and when the sterilization is done and I cool the jar, it will condense back into liquid.
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nastos
secret secretions




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Re: Can anyone explain exactly the necessity for a pressure cooker? [Re: laserpig]
#11076519 - 09/17/09 12:35 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I honeslty think you would have more luck just steaming the jars for like 3 hours than fuckin around drying out your grains in the oven..
seriously go to the thrift store and a few garage sales, look on craigslist you can find a cheap ass PC..
just plz stop bumping this thread.. it has been proven time and time again that a PC is needed for grains.. all reasons why it wont work are scientifically proven and you are not going to change them.. if you do end up with viable jars it will be pure luck and not your oven evaporation bullshit method.
i got lucky before i got my PC
wbs
steam sterilized 90 mins

6 identical jars and no contams simply rinsed with hot ass water and soaked in hot coffee for 6 hours
i consider myself lucky
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Edited by nastos (09/17/09 12:46 PM)
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure



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Re: Can anyone explain exactly the necessity for a pressure cooker? [Re: laserpig]
#11076600 - 09/17/09 01:00 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I can't believe you actually think a foil wrap will hold steam pressure. If it would, All American wouldn't make pressure cookers 1/4" thick. The steam will not stay there unless it's kept under pressure, and foil sure as hell won't do that. I'd suggest searching some of these terms or look at the Similar Threads links below to find a few of the thousands of times your very idea has been tried before with 100% failure by people who don't understand the engineering behind why steam under pressure is warmer than 212F/100C. Those of us who have been doing this for decades don't use pressure vessels for sterilization because someone told us to. We use them because it's the only way that works for indoor sterile culture.
If you want to grow in an unsterile environment, grow outdoors. There, nature is in balance and the mushroom mycelium will hold it's own. Indoors, we use sterile procedure to get the most bang for the buck. We want to get a pound of mushrooms from a small substrate, not a pound of mushrooms from a 100 acre pasture. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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