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 ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist
 
Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 3,060
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
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Quote:
mushroomhunter10 said:
Ingestion of anything in small quantities results in a buildup over time.
Then why don't I keep getting bigger and bigger until I explode? I ingest more than small quantities of many things on a daily basis and they remain at a relatively constant level in my body.
Quote:
The kidneys only rid the body of 50% of the fluoride consumed. The remainder is stored in various parts of the bodies.
Source?
Quote:
Perhaps on plumbed you can also try fluoridation, fluoridated, etc... And plumbed isn't the only source for these things...
Fluoride turned up more results than both of those combined. Pubmed searches the vast majority of the health-related peer-reviewed literature and a large amount of non-health-related science literature as well.
Quote:
Regardless of what either of you tell me, there is NO use for fluoride in the water,
That's another argument entirely.
Quote:
and if it disappeared today dental health would increase and many diseases of the brain, renal systems, and immunological systems would be dramatically reduced.
Why don't you start to build a argument by actually finding some (unbiased, well-structured, peer-reviewed) studies that makes a convincing case for this instead of just telling us to take your word for it. You have 40,000 to choose from right? Shouldn't be hard to find one...
Quote:
It's a TOXIC waste.
Everything is toxic in the right quantities. Hell, it only takes a few liters of water to kill a person.
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If they put lead or mercury in 1ppm like they do fluoride wouldn't that be bad too? It would cause eventual disease and buildup,
Lead and mercury are not fluoride.
Quote:
so why should fluoride be any different?
Because it is different. Why is carbon different from oxygen? Seems like that's more of a philosophical question....
Quote:
Fluoride is used in so many poisons that it's pathetic...
Again, toxicity depends on dose, means of administration, and what it's being administered to.
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mushroomhunter10
Jack-Of-All-Trades
Registered: 10/04/08
Posts: 3,360
Loc: Midwest
Last seen: 8 years, 10 months
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 Re: Water Fluoridation  [Re: ChuangTzu]
#11115795 - 09/23/09 09:51 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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You're just being stubborn I suppose.
If you open your mind, listen to the lectures, do some reading and I'm sure we'd at least agree that it IS a slow poisoning.
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mushroomhunter10
Jack-Of-All-Trades
Registered: 10/04/08
Posts: 3,360
Loc: Midwest
Last seen: 8 years, 10 months
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If you research precious metals recovery, anesthesiology, and toxicology. That's where my experience and danger awareness of fluoride have come from... Not just youtube videos. 
Let's not start a pissing contest. But, did you view the doctor speaking in that lecture that I posted?
--------------------
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 Minstrel
Man of Science
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 1,974
Loc: Hogtown
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Well, I just did a search of pubmed for this 'doctor'
Author: Stanley Monteith
Title/Abstract: Fluoride
No hits. 
If I search google, though, it seems he is well researched in toxicology, epidemiology, oil economics, global conspiracy occultism, international relations, etc. 
Please provide us with links, or at least titles to any peer reviewed publications this prodigy of extensive knowledge might have produced.
Disinformation artists can be very successful when they pose as doctors. People who don't do any further digging are just liable to eat up anything they say unchallenged, because of the perceived authority doctors have.
Look up the case of Kent Hovind. If you were believe everything he says in his 'lectures', you'd think he was a PhD, the earth is 6000 years old, water blocks X-rays, and other demonstrably moronic things.
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mushroomhunter10
Jack-Of-All-Trades
Registered: 10/04/08
Posts: 3,360
Loc: Midwest
Last seen: 8 years, 10 months
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Re: Water Fluoridation [Re: Minstrel]
#11116282 - 09/23/09 11:03 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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Look dudes.
Hitler used it.
Europe banned it.
Seriously...
--------------------
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Minstrel
Man of Science
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 1,974
Loc: Hogtown
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No, seriously
This is the science forum. Produce the data. I tried looking, and found nothing that clarified the situation, and all the more reason to be skeptical.
Hitler made some pretty awesome highways. Should we ban those here too?
Pot is banned almost everywhere. Does that mean it's dangerous?
See the problems with arguments like that?
Edited by Minstrel (09/23/09 11:11 PM)
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elementswrath
Finger' trippin good
Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 5,276
Loc: suiciety 
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Quote:
mushroomhunter10 said:
The facts are out there in the papers.
Fluoride in the bones, dental fluorosis, lowered IQ, Hitler's use of it in POW camps, calcified Pineal glands, certain cancers, etc...
You just have to read I guess.
Here's a link for you guys:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Dangers+of+Fluoride
holy shit!! how did you make it move like that?
it googled for me.
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mushroomhunter10
Jack-Of-All-Trades
Registered: 10/04/08
Posts: 3,360
Loc: Midwest
Last seen: 8 years, 10 months
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--------------------
Imagine if you needed it and it wasn't there... GIVE BLOOD
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badchad
Mad Scientist
Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,378
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Really, there are plenty of systematic reviews showing beneficial, albeit small benefits of fouridation of drinking water.
Such as:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18584000?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=3&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed
AND
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11021861?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1&log$=relatedreviews&logdbfrom=pubmed
These studies come from many different countries by a variety of authors. The above two have, at minimum, undergone the peer-review process which ensures some degree of "quality control". This is in contrast to using google, which still returns pages that can be produced and hosted by anyone and their mother.
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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.
Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.
...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.
Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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HighTek
A FunkyPhoenician
Registered: 03/22/07
Posts: 1,091
Loc: In your pants.
Last seen: 10 months, 29 days
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Sodium Chloride is Table salt.
Sodium is a metal that will react with water explosively (good times).
Chlorine as a gas is poisonous, but is needed to make hydrochloric acid in our stomachs, which would burn the skin.
Sodium ions are needed (BRAWNDO..its got electrolytes!)
OMG Sodium Chloride builds up in the body!! Its dangerous! There are many peer-reviewed papers that show sodium reacts exothermically with water! Chlorine is bad mkay!
DOWN WITH TABLE SALT!!!!
Ok, but seriously, my environmental engineering course just covered water chemistry. The following is taken verbatim from my class notes:
"Water with about 1.0 mg/L of fluoridation has been found to substantially retard tooth decay compared to water with lower concentrations of fluoride. Therefore, based on recommendations by the American Dental Association and the American Medical Association, many communities add fluoride to their water to bring the concentration to about 1 mg/L (depending on the average ambient temperature).The process is simple and very inexpensive, costing only about 25 cents per person per year. Although some state and local governments mandate water fluoridation, the U.S. EPA does not (and can not); but the U.S. EPA does require removal of excessive levels of fluoride.
Water with higher concentrations of fluoride can keep teeth from decaying but produces mottling of tooth enamel (dental fluorosis). Very high concentrations of fluoride (e.g., 20-60 mg/L) can cause crippling skeletal fluorosis. When high fluoride levels are encountered, defluoridation processes can be employed to reduce fluoride below the MCL. The processes used to defluoride water (e.g., absorption on activated alumina or bone char, or coagulation with massive dosages of alum) are expensive and difficult to design or operate.
Fluoridation is a highly emotional issue. Proposals to fluoridate drinking water have met with strong opposition in many locations, but opponents have generally produced little or no valid scientific evidence that low concentrations are harmful. In response to a report that fluoride might cause cancer, the U.S. Public Health Service recently reviewed the results of more than 50 epidemiology studies and found no evidence of carcinogenicity. It is worth nothing that the greatest benefits of fluoridation in the U.S. accrue to the poor and to minorities, who have substantially higher than average tooth decay."
There you have it. I personally believe any published book than webpages, especially since facts have to be checked (credibility).
BTW, the text book we are using is Introduction to Environmental Engineering, Mackenzie Davis & David Cornwell, McGraw-Hill Science/Engineering/Math; 4 edition (October 3, 2006).
Quote:
mushroomhunter10 said:
The facts are out there in the papers.
Fluoride in the bones, dental fluorosis, lowered IQ, Hitler's use of it in POW camps, calcified Pineal glands, certain cancers, etc...
To be real (honest), fluoride alone isn't going to cause all that. Its a combination of factors that you have to take into account. It sounds more like someone is manipulating the evidence to make it fit their fluoride agenda.
Edited by HighTek (09/25/09 05:18 PM)
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Minstrel
Man of Science
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 1,974
Loc: Hogtown
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Re: Water Fluoridation [Re: HighTek]
#11127143 - 09/25/09 05:53 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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There is a great deal of evidence that Hitler also employed table salt in a multitude of culinary productions aimed at the masses. 
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HighTek
A FunkyPhoenician
Registered: 03/22/07
Posts: 1,091
Loc: In your pants.
Last seen: 10 months, 29 days
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Re: Water Fluoridation [Re: Minstrel]
#11127228 - 09/25/09 06:06 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Minstrel said:
There is a great deal of evidence that Hitler also employed table salt in a multitude of culinary productions aimed at the masses.
HAHAHA.
Yeah, the Hitler using it POW camps made no sense to me as an argument against fluoride.
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mushroomhunter10
Jack-Of-All-Trades
Registered: 10/04/08
Posts: 3,360
Loc: Midwest
Last seen: 8 years, 10 months
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Re: Water Fluoridation [Re: HighTek]
#11127439 - 09/25/09 06:59 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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Lies are everywhere. Even on youtube, even in books.
My claims stem not only from the videos, but personal experience in fields where fluoride is used almost daily.
Sure Hitler wasn't a good argument simply because he used it as a dumb-down tool, as does the government.
Find me this. What happens when fluoride is ingested?
--------------------
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Get a free (PAINLESS) bone marrow testing kit and help save lives HERE.
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Minstrel
Man of Science
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 1,974
Loc: Hogtown
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Allow us to do your research for you? You know, if you wanted to support your case in a more tangible way, you could post things like the following:
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Effects of fluoride on rat vertebral body biomechanical competence and bone mass
Bone, Volume 16, Issue 1, Pages 163-169
Abstract
For more than 30 years, sodium fluoride has been a commonly used therapeutic agent for established osteoporosis because of its repeatedly documented anabolic effect on trabecular bone mass. Recent clinical and experimental studies have, however, indicated a possible detrimental effect of fluoride on bone strength. Thus, the efficacy of fluoride therapy remains a controversial issue. The aim of this study was to investigate the effect of fluoride on both vertebral bone mass and quality in rats. Twenty-nine 3-month-old, female rats were randomized into three groups. One group served as a control group, and the other two groups received fluoridated water at different doses (100 ppm and 150 ppm). The rats were followed for 90 days. Three lumbar vertebrae were obtained from each rat, and changes in bone fluoride content, bone mass and biomechanical competence were assessed. The results revealed a significant increase in bone fluoride content, ash density and trabecular bone volume after fluoride treatment. Directly obtained load values and load corrected for cross-sectional area were constant. Load corrected for ash content, which is a measure of bone quality, decreased significantly after fluoride therapy. It is concluded that the increase in bone mass during fluoride treatment does not translate into an improved bone strength and that the bone quality declines. This investigation thereby supports the hypothesis of a possible negative effect of fluoride on bone quality.
Intake and Metabolism of Fluoride
G.M. Whitford
Department of Oral Biology School of Dentistry Medical College of Georgia Augusta, Georgia 30912-1129
The purpose of this paper is to discuss the major factors that determine the body burden of inorganic fluoride. Fluoride intake 25 or more years ago was determined mainly by measurement of the concentration of the ion in the drinking water supply. This is not necessarily true today because of ingestion from fluoride-containing dental products, the "halo effect", the consumption of bottled water, and the use of water purification systems in the home. Therefore, the concentration of fluoride in drinking water may not be a reliable indicator of previous intake. Under most conditions, fluoride is rapidly and extensively absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract. The rate of gastric absorption is inversely related to the pH of the gastric contents. Overall absorption is reduced by calcium and certain other cations and by elevated plasma fluoride levels. Fluoride removal from plasma occurs by calcified tissue uptake and urinary excretion. About 99% of the body burden of fluoride is associated with calcified tissues, and most of it is not exchangeable. In general, the clearance of fluoride from plasma by the skeleton is inversely related to the stage of skeletal development. Skeletal uptake, however, can be positive or negative, depending on the level of fluoride intake, hormonal status, and other factors. Dentin fluoride concentrations tend to increase throughout life and appear to be similar to those in bone. Research to determine whether dentin is a reliable biomarker for the body burden of fluoride is recommended. The renal clearance of fluoride is high compared with other halogens. It is directly related to urinary pH. Factors that acidify the urine increase the retention of fluoride and vice versa. The renal clearance of fluoride decreases and tissue levels increase when the glomerular filtration rate is depressed on a chronic basis.
Influence of exposure to fluoridated water on socioeconomic inequalities in children's caries experience
Community Dentistry and Oral Epidemiology
Volume 24 Issue 2, Pages 89 - 100
Published Online: 29 May 2006
Abstract –
This study aimed to evaluate inequalities in children's dental caries experience among socioeconomic status (SES) groups and to investigate effects of exposure to fluoride in water on those inequalities. Cross-sectional data were obtained from 6704 Queensland children aged 5–12 years and 6814 South Australian children aged 5–15 years. School dental therapists and dentists recorded dmfs and DMFS data. A questionnaire to parents sought information about household SES and each child's lifetime exposure to fluoridated drinking water. SES, fluoride exposure and multiplicative interactions between the two were used as explanatory variables in least squares models in which dmfs and DMFS were dependent variables. Additive interactions were evaluated by calculating the excess rate of disease. In both states, children from low SES groups (categorized by household income or parental education) had higher mean dmfs and DMFS values than children from high SES groups (p<0.01). Independent effects of income and education remained significant (p<0.01) after controlling for exposure to fluoride in drinking water. In Queensland, there was a significant multiplicative interaction whereby SES inequalities were lower among children exposed to fluoride: dmfs ratios between low-and high-income groups ranged among ages from 1.54 to 3.56 for children with no exposure to fluoride and from 0.84 to 2.07 for children with lifetime exposure to fluoride. Multiplicative interactions were not statistically significant in South Australia or when DMFS was the dependent variable. However, additive interactions were consistent and most pronounced for deciduous teeth in both States. Absolute differences in caries experience between low and high SES children were greater among non-exposed groups due to the higher underlying levels of caries experience of children with no exposure to fluoride in water.
The effects of fluoridated water on bone strength
Journal of Orthopaedic Research
Volume 10 Issue 4, Pages 581 - 587
Published Online: 18 Feb 2005
ABSTRACT
Fluoride from fluoridated water accumulates not only in the enamel of teeth but also in the skeleton. The effects of fluoridated water on the skeleton are not well understood, yet there is some evidence that fluoridated water consumption increases the incidence of fractures. In the present study, femoral bending strength was measured in rats on fluoride intakes that ranged from low levels to levels well above natural high fluoride drinking water. Bone strength followed a biphasic relationship with bone fluoride content. Fluoride had a positive effect on bone strength for lower fluoride intakes and a negative influence on bone strength for higher fluoride intakes. The vertebral fluoride content at which femoral strength was maximum was between 1,100 and 1,500 ppm. The increase in femoral strength at this fluoride level was not accompanied by an increase in femoral bone density. The optimal fluoride content is within the range of bone fluoride contents found in persons living in regions with fluoridated water (1 ppm) for > 10 years.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Isn't google scholar wonderful? As you can see, some research exposes the benefits, others, the detriments. You can easily support your position by searching with appropriate terms. I didn't intend to support either a pro or con position in posting these; I merely wanted to make clear the resources you have available to you are far better than what you are currently trolling though.
So, try Google Scholar instead of the jootoobs. Sure, there's no spooky music, or reassuring applause, but there is data, and citations. Even if you don't have access to the full electronic articles, you almost always can read the abstracts, which unless you are doing academic research, is all you ever really need.
I said in my first post that you cannot make a tangible argument against fluoridation (or anything, for that matter) based on paranoia and conspiracy. However, this seems to be the route you have opted to take. The best you seem to be able to do is link to yet more videos by a 'doctor' who has absolutely ZERO publications on the matter, but also prattles about other conspiracies.
Edited by Minstrel (09/25/09 08:02 PM)
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HighTek
A FunkyPhoenician
Registered: 03/22/07
Posts: 1,091
Loc: In your pants.
Last seen: 10 months, 29 days
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Quote:
mushroomhunter10 said:
Lies are everywhere. Even on youtube, even in books.
Excellent counter-argument. I could be lying. Then again, so could you.
Quote:
mushroomhunter10 said:
My claims stem not only from the videos, but personal experience in fields where fluoride is used almost daily.
I trust my professor and textbooks more than a post on the shroomery.
Quote:
mushroomhunter10 said:
Sure Hitler wasn't a good argument simply because he used it as a dumb-down tool, as does the government.
...
Quote:
mushroomhunter10 said:
Find me this. What happens when fluoride is ingested?
Oh please, there are worse things in water to worry about than fluoride. Human life expectancy was doubled in the past 100 years because of water treatment, chlorination, filtering, etc. My previous post validated your argument: yeah, too much fluoride is a bad thing, then again, like other people said, too much of ANYTHING is a bad thing. Worry about organisms that can't be treated with filtering and chlorniation...it doesn't take much to kill you. Find me this, what happens when crytposporidiosis is ingested?
Hint: Read From Cholera to Cancer to Cryptosporidiosis by Daniel A. Okun.
I'm done.
Edited by HighTek (09/25/09 07:58 PM)
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HighTek
A FunkyPhoenician
Registered: 03/22/07
Posts: 1,091
Loc: In your pants.
Last seen: 10 months, 29 days
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Re: Water Fluoridation [Re: Minstrel]
#11127688 - 09/25/09 08:01 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Minstrel said:
Posted Citations...
Well done. That, I could respond to as an adult.
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mushroomhunter10
Jack-Of-All-Trades
Registered: 10/04/08
Posts: 3,360
Loc: Midwest
Last seen: 8 years, 10 months
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Re: Water Fluoridation [Re: HighTek]
#11127690 - 09/25/09 08:02 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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I guess there are good and bad but it's not required if you take care of your teeth, and it is difficult for the body to rid itself of all fluoride taken in.
What worries me more than fluoride are amalgamated dental fillings. That's a whole other subject though.
--------------------
Imagine if you needed it and it wasn't there... GIVE BLOOD
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mushroomhunter10
Jack-Of-All-Trades
Registered: 10/04/08
Posts: 3,360
Loc: Midwest
Last seen: 8 years, 10 months
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"The results revealed a significant increase in bone fluoride content, ash density and trabecular bone volume after fluoride treatment."
I don't think it's mentioned that Fluoride is more brittle, so more bone mass does not necessarily equate to more bone strength.
I'm also interested in how fluoride is an EXCELLENT bactericide and what it does to beneficial bacterium in our bodies once ingested. I don't believe fluoride in the brain's pathways has any benefit whatsoever.
--------------------
Imagine if you needed it and it wasn't there... GIVE BLOOD
Get a free (PAINLESS) bone marrow testing kit and help save lives HERE.
Jesus if you're reading this, please come back already. We need you now more than ever!
The U.S. Constitution!
Best WBS Tek
EZ Potato-Honey Agar Tek
MY TRADES
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Minstrel
Man of Science
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 1,974
Loc: Hogtown
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Quote:
mushroomhunter10 said:
"The results revealed a significant increase in bone fluoride content, ash density and trabecular bone volume after fluoride treatment."
I don't think it's mentioned that Fluoride is more brittle, so more bone mass does not necessarily equate to more bone strength.
You have some really selective reading. From the last abstract I supplied to you: "Fluoride had a positive effect on bone strength for lower fluoride intakes and a negative influence on bone strength for higher fluoride intakes" and "the optimal fluoride content is within the range of bone fluoride contents found in persons living in regions with fluoridated water (1 ppm) for > 10 years"
Your simple binary understanding of fluoride = bad, no fluoride = good is absurd.
Quote:
I'm also interested in how fluoride is an EXCELLENT bactericide and what it does to beneficial bacterium in our bodies once ingested. I don't believe fluoride in the brain's pathways has any benefit whatsoever.
Still haven't learned how to do your own research? Even when supplied to a link to Google Scholar? If you are so interested, THEN LOOK IT UP. Let us know what you find. 
Edited by Minstrel (09/25/09 09:19 PM)
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Asante
Omnicyclion prophet
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 87,330
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Re: Water Fluoridation [Re: HighTek]
#11130062 - 09/26/09 06:48 AM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
retard tooth decay
Though I agree retard tooth decay is a big problem, I would like to make the case that a drug intended for LOCAL application should not be given in systemic form. Thats like swallowing mouthwash.
If you drink a glass of water only a fraction of the fluoride ends up in your tooth enamel, the rest gets absorbed and competes with EVERY BONE IN YOUR BODY.
1..it makes no sense
2..it is wasteful of the world purified fluoride supply
3..people should be given a CHOICE in things
If I take a bath in the USA, those 100 liters of tap water contain 100mg added fluoride. I dont want that.
Offer people free fluoride tabs and educate them on their usefulness. its as simple as that.
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Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here
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