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Is Socialism Good
    #10954144 -

Would a socialist system be good for America? People say capitalism means choice but the choices being referred to are the ability to choose between hundreds of different types of orange juice and cereal. The only way a person can believe that capitalism promotes choice is if your identity is based on what you consume. Movies and music in capitalism have been made stupid so that they can appeal to the most people and the result of this is that culture has become barbaric and stupid.

One problem with socialism is it could grant too much power to the state and the result of that is that people could be oppressed by a soulless bureaucracy.

Another problem with socialism is that many socialists identify certain ethical points of view as being part of socialism. I think that someone can be pro-life and be a socialist because socialism is an economic style.


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http://www.dlshq.org/teachings/brahmacharya.htm

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: lines]
    #10954241 -

My gut says no, socialism is pretty lame unless we are talking about a very small society imo


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Jesus loves you.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: lines]
    #10954333 -

Depends what you mean by socialism.  The word gets thrown around so much by supporters and opponents alike that it's practically lost all meaning.

What I interpret socialism to be is an economic system in which the workers own the means of production.  Or, to put it in more concrete terms, there are no capitalists and no wage labor.  Theoretically, this could mean a society in which all business are worker co-ops.  In practice, it usually means that the state is the sole employer, and it runs a command economy, as opposed to a market economy.

Personally, I'm all for worker co-ops, and so I have no problem with socialism in that sense.  But I do have a problem with command economies.  Without a market economy, something as simple as keeping a grocery store stocked with milk becomes an incredibly complex task.  Overproduction and underproduction are sometimes found in capitalism, but they are rampant in a command economy.  Some things just aren't meant to be centrally planned.

That said, I do support some degree of welfare capitalism, as seen in much of Western Europe.  A lot of people confuse such a system with socialism, but in fact entrepreneurism is as common there as it is here.  I don't have a problem with the government intervening in the market in places where it can improve people's quality of life.  I just don't want the government to replace the market.


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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Silversoul]
    #10956706 -

The way I see it, all Western countries have a mixed economy. The ratios are different, and the US is more to one side than other countries, but there's no hard line. I think a mixed economy is definitely the way to go. The extreme end on either side (anarcho-capitalism, or communism) would be disastrous.


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I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #10957052 -

I think that The US is in the arms of capitalist robber barons, a form of non-authoritarian socialism like worker owned factories and syndicate organizations would assist in refurberishing a lot of the stagnant sectors of the american economy.

However, I can't say I'm a fan of some sort of centralized authoritarian planned economy (same as command economy), ya know the likes of which Russia experienced. However I think such models are only effective at bringing industrialization into an economy from what I've seen. It's actually quite unsuccessful as soon as an economy is industrialized or even worse entering into post-industrialism.


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: lines]
    #10957169 -

The United States of America has by far the best type of  government, Capitalist Republic!  We have the Politicians we deserve because we elected them!  If politicians say one thing and do another, vote them out!

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #10957287 -

C.M. Mann said:
The United States of America has by far the best type of  government, Capitalist Republic!  We have the Politicians we deserve because we elected them!  If politicians say one thing and do another, vote them out!


I agree all politicians out of office! Too bad most people have very forgiving long/short-term memories.


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Edited by ScavengerType (08/28/09 07:04 PM)

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #10957294 -

And how is that different to other Western countries?


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I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #10957351 -

zouden said:
And how is that different to other Western countries?


Unlike most western economies takes place in neo-fantasy land.


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10957813 -

"In “Economic Calculation in a Socialist Commonwealth,” Ludwig von Mises demonstrates, once and forever, that, under socialist central planning, there are no means of economic calculation and that, therefore, socialist economy itself is “impossible” (“unmöglich”)--not just inefficient or less innovative or conducted without benefit of decentralized knowledge, but really and truly and literally impossible."
- Quote from Joseph T. Salerno

I agree with this entirely, socialism is literally impossible since it has no means of calculation.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #10957829 -

It's perfectly possible if socialist is an adjective and not a noun. Some countries have more socialist policies than others.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #10957853 -

can you spell co-op-t


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10957943 -

:shrug: when Americans say they are terrified of Obama making their country 'socialist', are they talking about the USSR, or Denmark? Both are socialist to some extent. That's my point.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #10960577 -

I dont understand why socialists think that the workers should have the say.

The workers are tools of the employer... they are organised in a certain way and given the means to perform their skills. If they can do without the capitalist employers... then whY dont they?? Because they often need the capitalists for the infrastructure that allows them to work. But the capitalists don't need them, because they can be replaced.

I think that powerful people just need to be checked more. Made responsible for what happens. And also less ridiculous pay-difference brackets. Some people will say that the CEO is in control of a lot so his role is worth a significant portion of the revenue of a company. But if this role really was worth so much, then they should be able to show all the people who are affected by their decisions, so that everyone knows whats going on and appreciate the position of their leaders. Leaders should lead because they are driven internally, not because of money. However, money does act as an incentive for people to spend their full energies in a competitive environment. This often brings results.

I think we should keep our current system but just make the economy more transparent and make the massively wealthy people of the world accountable for all that is going on, because essentially, in most cases, they are.


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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Noteworthy]
    #10960911 -

I dissagree, in my experience the management are usually bigger tools than anyone working for them.


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: lines]
    #10961040 -

Goverment = MIND CONTROL!

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: ennos]
    #10961044 -

yo momma = fat :tongue2:


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:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Noteworthy]
    #10961592 -

Noteworthy said:
The workers are tools of the employer... they are organised in a certain way and given the means to perform their skills. If they can do without the capitalist employers... then whY dont they?? Because they often need the capitalists for the infrastructure that allows them to work. But the capitalists don't need them, because they can be replaced.


I think you have a serious misunderstanding of power relations.  Inequality of wealth tends to perpetuate itself.  By paying workers subsistence wages, the workers are unable to obtain capital.  And without capital, they can't start their own businesses.  Also, did you actually just say that the capitalists don't need the workers?!  How is anything supposed to get produced without labor?  The fact that laborers are so replaceable is simply an indication of the imbalance of power.


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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Silversoul]
    #10964129 -

are you serious? Maybe your family is different but There are lots of people who immigrated to the western world with next to nothing and worked hard and made the right choices and ended up having property that could support their family.
So I can't take your sentiment seriously when my family and many others got out of poorness through hard work and committed alliances. I myself am a lazy product of their hard work but I appreciate what was done to allow me the comforts that I have been born into.

I will say it again - capitalists don't need workers because there will always be someone else willing to do the work. Workers need capitalists because by themselves, workers do not have the organisational capacity or the trust of investors that is required to turn WORK into a PRODUCT that is then SOLD, at a RATE that can support the WORKERS' lifestyle.

The only valuable people are those with specific irreplacable skills, people with investment/capital, and people with social influence (generally involving power within a business or corporation or organisation).

All of the 'workers' are replacable with other people, that is to say, they are generic and not valuable in themselves.

Being a tradesperson is a good example to inspect. Tradespersons are workers who are in control of their output. They have special skills that general workers do not have. If they can organise themselves with the right tools and transport and advertisement and social networking, then they do not need an employer. However if they simply have some skills and nothing else then they are not much use and must be herded by an organising force.


As for the comment above, that said that management are bigger tools than the workers, I don't know what that means (it could just be an emotional outburst relating to the fact that management has a degree of control over one's life). Care to elabourate?
Remember that many low-level management roles are just as replaceable as the 'workers' that they manage... and so they can just be considered as 'workers' too.


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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Noteworthy]
    #10964139 -

Quote:
I will say it again - capitalists don't need workers because there will always be someone else willing to do the work.


It's true to say capitalists don't need specific workers, but they still need labour.

Quote:
Maybe your family is different but There are lots of people who immigrated to the western world with next to nothing and worked hard and made the right choices and ended up having property that could support their family.


They couldn't do that if they were paid a subsistence wage, by definition.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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