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MAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
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Re: Do You Think This idea from Pf Tek will work? [Re: MAIA]
#1095939 - 11/29/02 11:47 AM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Here's a snip from a debate about this. I'll quote Teonan, In reply to:
I have read the Fanaticus argument for spore races, and I don't think it is relevant for Psilocybe cubensis. His proof is a non related mushroom, that is a pathogen of living trees. The variation within that species is a result of it's adapting (Physiologically) to Plant defense compounds, it comes in contact with on the many different species of trees it eats. It attacks living trees!!! It must evolve specialized enzymes, structural features, etc.. to overcome this diversity. These changes require changes in it's genes. These changes are significant enough that they result in RACE developement. Compatibility is lost, to protect these differences. They are still labeled as the same species by taxonomists, and just refered to as RACES. Cubensis encounters none of these problems. Each STRAIN is able to feed on similar substrates, in similar environments. B+ will eat anything that GT, or EQ, will eat. The same cannot be said for the different races of Armillaria mellea. PF will eat anything as well, it just prefers the substance it has been eating for a very long time. It has a prefrence for it, but it is not limited to it. This does not make it a cultural or physiological Race. Isolate monokaryons of it and breed them with monokaryons of all the other Strains in circulation. YOU will be DISSAPOINTED to find that they do mate!!! P.cubensis is a single species that has been spread around the world, all of it's variation is related to the composition of the manure it fruits on, and the immediate suroundings(climate) it lives in. This is my opinion, and it is in disagreement with PF theory.
Comparing cubensis to Armillaria mellea is bad science, in my OPINION.
His other proof is related to injecting a mixed spore solution of two strains into a single substrate. This is not isolation of monokaryons to perform a compatibility study. As was stated, compatible spores closest to each other will mate first, these will then fuse with compatible dikaryons that are closest. Fusions will occur between a single STRAIN at a higher frequency then between strains.
Multisporing itself takes longer to reach maturity, add two different strains into the mix, and it will take longer. You want fast, you use isolated cultures of a single substrain.
Breeding experiments should start on a petri plate, not in a jar. In his test, a dominant strain could have just outcompeted the weaker strains, or just incorporated them into itself. The problem with testing that way, is YOU DON"T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED. You are just making guesses.
Compatibility tests are done the same way BREEDING systems are determined. Via monokaryon isolation and breeding tests!!! Some one had to perform the REAL test to know that P. cubensis as a species is HETEROTHALLIC and TETRAPOLAR. Simply injecting spores into a substrate could never lead to that determination.
Also in this post Mr Mushrooms gives some interesting aspects.
MAIA
-------------------- Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy. Voltaire
Edited by MAIA (11/29/02 11:51 AM)
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Shaw
Registered: 06/27/01
Posts: 2,257
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Re: Do You Think This idea from Pf Tek will work? [Re: MAIA]
#1096118 - 11/29/02 01:12 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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To my knollege, Teonan never tried this experiment. For the record, there will be no genetic exchange between strains. Two strains will fruit off the same substrate though. Teonan is right though, that it can be difficult to tell which strain is which when fruiting. In my experiment, it was eash to tell, because the strains were very different. There wasn't a single mature fruitbody that's strain was in question. I wish i had kept some PF amazonian spores to repeat the experiment to see if i get the same results, now that i have a digi cam on the way.
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canid
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Re: Do You Think This idea from Pf Tek will work? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#1096177 - 11/29/02 01:51 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Baby_Hitler:
In reply to:
>Two strains in the same substrate will not become simbiotic but will fight for >substrate, so the results could be just one strain poorly fruiting , the two strains >poorly fruiting or not fruiting at all, IT IS A WASTE.
i don't see any reason that two geneticaly diverse specimens produced by different members of the same species would be any less compatible then any othetr two geneticaly deiverse specimens produced by any other members of the same species.
In reply to:
I think he was talking about spore races, rather than strains, that stamets quote referred to strains, which may not apply.
could you explain the distinction, cause i'm pretty sure that the both mean exactly the same thing.
-------------------- Attn PWN hunters: If you should come across a bluing Psilocybe matching P. pellicolusa please smell it. If you detect a scent reminiscent of Anethole (anise) please preserve a specimen or two for study and please PM me.
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: Do You Think This idea from Pf Tek will work? [Re: canid]
#1096253 - 11/29/02 02:40 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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My understanding of it is "race" means Ecuador, PF, PES Hawiian, PR, etc...
"Strain" would be more like an individual, a specific mating between two spores. For example, a clone of an ecuador mushroom would be a strain of ecuador. The same would be true of an isolated rizomorph from an agar plate.
-------------------- "America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat “Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.” -- Thomas Jefferson The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance. The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)
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canid
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Re: Do You Think This idea from Pf Tek will work? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#1096285 - 11/29/02 02:56 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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that makes more sense, i didn't take into concideration the genetic deviation that occurs in spores. shows what i get for thinking. heh.
-------------------- Attn PWN hunters: If you should come across a bluing Psilocybe matching P. pellicolusa please smell it. If you detect a scent reminiscent of Anethole (anise) please preserve a specimen or two for study and please PM me.
Edited by concretefeet (11/29/02 02:59 PM)
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Skikid16
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Re: Do You Think This idea from Pf Tek will work? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#1096424 - 11/29/02 04:00 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think you got it backwards baby hitler. I think strain is equador, cambo, etc.
I think race is like if I got a wild print and started growing it, it'd be gulf coast, since thats where I live, but it would be my particular spore race, and all that I grew from that print, through the generations would be that spore race.
But I may be way off, this was just the way that I had understood it. Please if someone knows for sure, correct me.
-------------------- Re-Defeat Bush in '04
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