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Offlinemenotknow
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Study debunks myth that all substrains are the same & that only psilocybin is responsible for effect
    #10933363 - 08/25/09 12:37 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

A new study published helps to dispel the myth that all psilocybe substrains have identical effects because they all contain psilocybin.



=================
Biosci Biotechnol Biochem. 2009 Aug;73(8):1866-8. Epub 2009 Aug 7.

Effects of Psilocybe argentipes on marble-burying behavior in mice.

Matsushima Y, Shirota O, Kikura-Hanajiri R, Goda Y, Eguchi F.

Department of Health and Nutrition, Takasaki University of Health and Welfare, Gunma, Japan.

Psilocybe argentipes is a hallucinogenic mushroom. The present study examined the effects of P. argentipes on marble-burying behavior, which is considered an animal model of obsessive-compulsive disorder. P. argentipes significantly inhibited marble-burying behavior without affecting locomotor activity as compared with the same dose of authentic psilocybin. These findings suggest that P. argentipes would be efficient in clinical obsessive-compulsive disorder therapy.

PMID: 19661714 [PubMed - in process]

From the full text of the study:

"These results suggest that the anti-OCD effects of hallucinogenic mushrooms such as P. argentipes are probably not the same as those of authentic psilocybin.  Hallucinogenic mushrooms produce a wide variety of tryptamine derivatives other than psilocybin.  Some of these, such as psilocin, baeocystin, norbaeocystin, bufotenin, and aerginascin, have psychoactive effects, although many hallucinogenic mushrooms produce smaller amounts of them than psilocybin.  These findings suggest that inhibition of marble-burying behavior by P. argentipes is due to the involvement of a variety of psychoactive substances."


http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bbb/73/8/1866/_pdf


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Offlinesolstice
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Re: Study debunks myth that all substrains are the same & that only psilocybin is responsible for effect [Re: menotknow]
    #10933458 - 08/25/09 01:02 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Interesting! Although we're not specifically talking about tripping here. Human trips are much different things than mice OCD.


--------------------
Man woke up in a world he did not understand and that is why he tries to interpret it - Carl Jung


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OfflineCascadian
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Re: Study debunks myth that all substrains are the same & that only psilocybin is responsible for effect [Re: menotknow]
    #10933501 - 08/25/09 01:12 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

dispel the myth that all psilocybe substrains have identical effects




This article is in regards to Psilocybe argentipes, which is a species all its own, not a substrain of Psilocybe cubensis.

I don't think there is any myth that 3 dry grams of Psilocybe cubensis will do the same to you what 3 dry grams of Psilocybe azurescens will do.  And I'll bet Psilocybe argentipes will do something different too.

However, cube is a cube is a cube.  (penis envy is pretty strong though...)  There is more variation between grows of the same strain than variations between strains.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: Study debunks myth that all substrains are the same & that only psilocybin is responsible for effect [Re: menotknow]
    #10933649 - 08/25/09 01:39 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Marble-burying behavior in mice probably has no correlation to the human psychedelic experience.

If you look at the data in the paper, fluvoxamine (an SSRI) had nearly identical effects as P. argentipes on marble-burying behavior.

I think it would be a safe bet to say that SSRI's and mushrooms produce two very different things.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Offlinemenotknow
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Re: Study debunks myth that all substrains are the same & that only psilocybin is responsible for effect [Re: Cascadian]
    #10933857 - 08/25/09 02:06 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Cascadian said:
This article is in regards to Psilocybe argentipes, which is a species all its own, not a substrain of Psilocybe cubensis.



Thanks for pointing that out, although it's not really that important to the argument, because the argument has always been that psilocybin is the only constituent of any of the psilocybin-containing mushrooms worth caring about.  Anytime anyone has ever brought up that issue on this forum, the person will usually get a lecture that psilocybin is the only component in the mushroom giving the effects, and that therefore there must not be any difference between psilocybe strains or substrains of cubensis aside from potency.

Quote:


I don't think there is any myth that 3 dry grams of Psilocybe cubensis will do the same to you what 3 dry grams of Psilocybe azurescens will do.  And I'll bet Psilocybe argentipes will do something different too.




Something that has traditionally been an argument of potency of psilocybin in the mushroom varieties rather than to other constituents within the mushroom varieties. 

Quote:


However, cube is a cube is a cube.  (penis envy is pretty strong though...)  There is more variation between grows of the same strain than variations between strains.



A cube is not a cube.  Experienced users who have taken authentic gulf coast and compared it to ecuador and cambodian for example should be aware of the diversity in effects.  If they're not, it may be because of mislabelling of spores or product.  Given the variety in appearance and color of various cubensis substrains, for example, it really doesn't make sense to exclude the possibility that the levels of various chemicals within these substrains of cubensis also vary.

And getting back to the main argument, this study helps to establish in an objective fashion that a particular psilocybin-containing mushroom can have a different effect on behaviour and locomotion than pure psilocybin itself, and the researchers conclude that various other minor psychoactive chemicals within the mushrooms are the cause. 

It does not definitively establish on its own that "trips" will be noticeably different in humans when using different psilocybin-containing mushrooms, but it definitely makes it a distinct possibility, one that I and various others already believed to have been true based on personal experience.


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Offlinemenotknow
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Re: Study debunks myth that all substrains are the same & that only psilocybin is responsible for effect [Re: badchad]
    #10933900 - 08/25/09 02:12 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
Marble-burying behavior in mice probably has no correlation to the human psychedelic experience.




I don't agree.

Quote:


If you look at the data in the paper, fluvoxamine (an SSRI) had nearly identical effects as P. argentipes on marble-burying behavior.




So what.  So could also any other number of drugs.  This is logical error by improper association and comparison.

Quote:


I think it would be a safe bet to say that SSRI's and mushrooms produce two very different things.



You've made an error in logic.


Edited by menotknow (08/25/09 02:14 PM)


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Offlinesuburbanned
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Re: Study debunks myth that all substrains are the same & that only psilocybin is responsible for effect [Re: menotknow]
    #10933913 - 08/25/09 02:13 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

i hate to break it to you but i know very few educated people on this site that say that psilocybin is the only responsible chemical.  it has been discussed for some time now the fact that different alkaloid contents in different substrains can cause slightly different trips.


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Re: Study debunks myth that all substrains are the same & that only psilocybin is responsible for effect [Re: menotknow]
    #10933932 - 08/25/09 02:14 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Err... welcome to the Shroomery.

You might find this a good read:  Strain Discussion Thread-HERE ONLY!

As well as the newer incarnation here:  Strain/Race/Variety Thread

And no, I don't think that the shroomery's general body of knowledge is insistent that psilocybin is the only active ingredient in mushrooms.  Baeocystin in particulur gets a lot of talk on these boards.... but noone actually knows anything about it. 

For our practical purposes here - whether you decide to grow texans, equadorians, gulf coast, etc etc etc, you aren't going to produce a mushroom that you can say 'yeah mann this one gives you like a sweet body high, while THIS one is like, more visual.'


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Offlinewithoutawire
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Re: Study debunks myth that all substrains are the same & that only psilocybin is responsible for ef [Re: Cascadian]
    #10934452 - 08/25/09 03:36 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

There are so many things invalid and incoclusive with this one small published paper. It really doesn't mean anything.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: Study debunks myth that all substrains are the same & that only psilocybin is responsible for effect [Re: menotknow]
    #10934724 - 08/25/09 04:17 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

menotknow said:
Quote:

badchad said:
Marble-burying behavior in mice probably has no correlation to the human psychedelic experience.




I don't agree.




Based on what evidence?  Mice bury a variety of noxious stimuli.  By the author's own admission, they are using marble burying behavior as an animal model of OCD (not subjective or psychedelic effects).

Marble burying behavior can be affected by a number of drugs.  It says nothing about the qualitative (i.e. subjective) effects of a compound, and is not a technique used used to model the subjective effects of a drug.

Look at the data, it looks like mice buried 9 marbles after .03 of fluvoxamine,  and 10 marbles after 0.1 mg/kg  P. argentipes and 10 marbles after 1.5 mg/kg psilocybin.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Offlinemenotknow
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Re: Study debunks myth that all substrains are the same & that only psilocybin is responsible for effect [Re: badchad]
    #10936198 - 08/25/09 08:02 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:

Based on what evidence?  Mice bury a variety of noxious stimuli.  By the author's own admission, they are using marble burying behavior as an animal model of OCD (not subjective or psychedelic effects).

Marble burying behavior can be affected by a number of drugs.  It says nothing about the qualitative (i.e. subjective) effects of a compound, and is not a technique used used to model the subjective effects of a drug.

Look at the data, it looks like mice buried 9 marbles after .03 of fluvoxamine,  and 10 marbles after 0.1 mg/kg  P. argentipes and 10 marbles after 1.5 mg/kg psilocybin.




The point is that psilocybin and mushrooms affected their behaviour differently in a psychoactive manner.  And it is substantial if the difference was enough that it could be readily recognized by the researchers.  No, it can't be shown from this data that human "trips" would be different with psilocybin vs. mushrooms, but the study is suggestive of this possibility.  This has nothing to do with the SSRI.  It doesn't matter if the SSRI worked or not, at least for the narrow issue being discussed in this paragraph, i.e. whether the researchers could observe a difference in behaviour between rodents treated with mushrooms, and those treated with psilocybin.  The point, in a nutshell, is that this study in rodents suggests strongly psilocybin is not the only compound in this mushroom with a substantial psychoactive effect, and goes against the myth that other chemicals in various strains of psilocybe mushrooms are usually present in too small of a quantity to make a difference.


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OfflineCascadian
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Re: Study debunks myth that all substrains are the same & that only psilocybin is responsible for effect [Re: menotknow]
    #10936806 - 08/25/09 09:18 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

The data
Quote:

menotknow said:
Quote:

badchad said:

Based on what evidence?  Mice bury a variety of noxious stimuli.  By the author's own admission, they are using marble burying behavior as an animal model of OCD (not subjective or psychedelic effects).

Marble burying behavior can be affected by a number of drugs.  It says nothing about the qualitative (i.e. subjective) effects of a compound, and is not a technique used used to model the subjective effects of a drug.

Look at the data, it looks like mice buried 9 marbles after .03 of fluvoxamine,  and 10 marbles after 0.1 mg/kg  P. argentipes and 10 marbles after 1.5 mg/kg psilocybin.




The point is that psilocybin and mushrooms affected their behaviour differently in a psychoactive manner.  And it is substantial if the difference was enough that it could be readily recognized by the researchers.  No, it can't be shown from this data that human "trips" would be different with psilocybin vs. mushrooms, but the study is suggestive of this possibility.  This has nothing to do with the SSRI.  It doesn't matter if the SSRI worked or not, at least for the narrow issue being discussed in this paragraph, i.e. whether the researchers could observe a difference in behaviour between rodents treated with mushrooms, and those treated with psilocybin.  The point, in a nutshell, is that this study in rodents suggests strongly psilocybin is not the only compound in this mushroom with a substantial psychoactive effect, and goes against the myth that other chemicals in various strains of psilocybe mushrooms are usually present in too small of a quantity to make a difference.




The data in this study does not support your claim.

I dont think you're making a very bold claim or anything.  In fact I think most of the shroomery agrees with you.

But this is not data.


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