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OfflineCubers
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: Asante]
    #10958244 - 08/28/09 09:35 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Currency is better off not existing at all. It's a power structure with hierarchy and authority included in the package of the money system. The accumulation of wealth is but a waste of time, unless everyone else around you is doing it, then it is necessary so you dont get crushed by the weight of scarcity but if you ask me it would have been much better if people would just take what they needed and a some of what they want from the Earth instead of just accumulating more and more of something for the sake of acquiring the desires of others as a means of leverage.

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Offlinekadakuda
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: Cubers]
    #10959760 - 08/29/09 03:05 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

with the way the world works, at least how human societies work, how will that theory work?  people are greedy.  people will always take more than they need, and likely  can even use given the chance.

we are like squirrels burying as many nuts as we can possibly find, because we found them and think we may need them.

as much as i dislike government and all that shit, without it imagine who people would treat each other and the earth.  wouldnt be a green spot to be found, and we would likely all starve and be homeless by 2010.  we are not responsible, or intelligent, we just control ourselves when we think we will look bad in front of others :shrug:  so the system works, sort of, in a really strange ass backwards way.


--------------------
The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.

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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: memes]
    #10960500 - 08/29/09 09:57 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

At least one of you government cheerleaders could at least make the attempt at explaining to me how the creation of new money helps out the average American citizen.


How any of you could have something against libertarians is difficult to wrap my mind around.  An explanation of why some of you are against personal liberty would be swell!

Edited by Mr.Al (08/29/09 09:59 AM)

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OfflineCubers
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: kadakuda]
    #10963222 - 08/29/09 08:06 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

kadakuda said:
with the way the world works, at least how human societies work, how will that theory work?  people are greedy.  people will always take more than they need, and likely  can even use given the chance.

we are like squirrels burying as many nuts as we can possibly find, because we found them and think we may need them.

as much as i dislike government and all that shit, without it imagine who people would treat each other and the earth.  wouldnt be a green spot to be found, and we would likely all starve and be homeless by 2010.  we are not responsible, or intelligent, we just control ourselves when we think we will look bad in front of others :shrug:  so the system works, sort of, in a really strange ass backwards way.




Skip this first paragraph if you want to get straight down to my point on currency

Just a quick glance at how civilization/society is functioning currently (or malfunctioning if you look at the billions of people who are dieing of starvation, affected by war or are living in poverty) and if you look at how civilization has operated in its short period of existence which is quite short if you compare the millions of years where man has lived a tribal life(a way of life which has been found to work efficiently wherever it remaines untouched by civilization) anyone can obviously see that civilization has failed and continues to fail despite all efforts. I would argue that it is civilization that is the theory not the other way around,an experiment being carried on for less than 10 thousand years and the idea that currency is beneficial to a society is also a theory not what I have described. What I have described is how things operated before people settled down and started going around saying this is my land, that is my river, this is my lake, these are my skies etc, that didn't exist. That level of ownership wasn't possible even desireable until you had civilization! And this overpopulation we are allowing unwittingly was no where near possible before either.

If you eliminate currency completely along with wars you'll find it extremely difficult to amass as much wealth as some of the people on this planet have been able to do. And with the elimination of currency people become quite incapable of justifying why they would own thousands or millions of acres of land, billion barrel oil fields, an entire gold mine (or various ones), people, seas, etc. Simply put a person or a large group of persons do not need ownership of any of these things, and if a group of people "needs" millions of acres of land then that is because they have become socially irresponsible by multiplying like baboons in which case I will say it is not necessary for them to have millions of acres of anything they just need to keep some of their d$@ks under wraps and brains functioning properly. I myself might adopt if I decide to have children we obviously do not need any more people presently, less is more if you ask me.

Currency is a means of control, it allows a small few to wield power over the worlds resources and nearly all its inhabitants. The creators of currency are always, ALWAYS the ones taking the largest piece of the pie if not the entire pie in most cases. Currency and war are in fact gateways for greed.


Edited by Cubers (08/29/09 08:06 PM)

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Invisiblememes
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: Mr.Al]
    #10963829 - 08/29/09 10:18 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
At least one of you government cheerleaders...




I'd rather be a government cheerleader than a mises.org spamb0t anyday.



:vaped:

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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: memes]
    #10965263 - 08/30/09 09:32 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

meams said:
Quote:

Mr.Al said:
At least one of you government cheerleaders...




I'd rather be a government cheerleader than a mises.org spamb0t anyday.



:vaped:






You have nothing to say regarding how the creation of new money benefits the American people?

You attempt to denigrate Austrian theory with off-handed remarks.  You have no cogent argument against Austrian economics and you attempt to disguise this with empty rhetoric.

Do you surmise that the present government strategy of: "the more debt we accumulate, the more money we create and spend" is sustainable?

If more people studied Austrian economics we would not be in the economic mess that we are in.

Edited by Mr.Al (08/30/09 09:34 AM)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: Mr.Al]
    #10965440 - 08/30/09 10:39 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I would like to recommend that anyone here read The Lost Science of Money by Stephen Zarlenga. 

It's a very meticulous history of money, in which you learn surprising facts such as that gold was first used as money in the Middle East not because it was scarce but because it was plentiful(incidentally, paper hadn't been invented yet, and thus was infinitely scarce).  You'd also learn that the stamped value of coins has always been higher than the commodity value of the metal, and that the gold-to-silver ratio was set by law, not by the market.

The kind of thinking that says that money is a given commodity of gold or silver is the equivalent of saying that an inch is a given length of wood, since that is the material traditionally used for rulers(plastic rulers can be thought of as "fiat" measuring devices).


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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: Silversoul]
    #10966408 - 08/30/09 01:57 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

It is important to remember that it was individuals who were looking to solve the problems inherent in a barter economy that led to the uses of mediums-of-exchange.  Precious metals are durable, in high demand, divisible, portable, and relatively scarce.  It is these qualities that led civilizations to use them as money.  Governments typically seek to take control of the money supply to further their own ambitions.  I have a problem with that because that behavior has historically caused government to grow like cancer.  The American founders used to compare government to fire that needs to be kept in the fireplace; very useful if kept under control but disastrous if it gets out of hand.

It is important to remember that every dollar the U.S. government spends drains the value of the money already existing.  The private sector pays for government spending with a reduction in the value of the medium of exchange that it utilizes.  Government is capable of the dubious activity that is the redistribution of wealth BUT is actually not capable of producing wealth.

Long story short, the U.S. economy is operating on borrowed prosperity in the form of massive debt.  I do not see how (nationally speaking) we can live far beyond our means and not have to pay the piper eventually.





What do you see as possible solutions to America's economic woes?

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OfflineCubers
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: Mr.Al]
    #10968092 - 08/30/09 06:14 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

To say that currency came to be because it was simpler for people to trade then if they were bartering is all fine and dandy but that little idea had to come from someone! And Im pretty sure the capitalizers of the precious metal as currency theory were the ones who could amass it, distribute it, restrict its flow, etc. Greed was inherent from the very beginning of its conception. People just tended to accept it because it was "convenient" even if it meant a few greedy bastards might get their way at first. The only way to have a fair money system would be to dislodge ownership of anything from anyone of significant value to a large group of people, allow people to establish their own forms of shelter, have equal rights to all resources on the Earth and give an equal amount of fiat money to every human on the earth that has reached adulthood, also you would need eliminate any form of usury(and by usury i mean lending money with the expectation of receiving interest on it). That my friend is equality. You just can't have a healthy group of people(be it 10 people or 6.5 billion people) if the new generations coming up are facing inequality from the outset. One kid has everything, another kid in the same country has dirt cookies and no home whatsoever. That is how dangerous currency is, that and war.

Edited by Cubers (08/30/09 06:19 PM)

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OfflineCubers
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: Cubers]
    #10968140 - 08/30/09 06:21 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Oh and even that system would not last because that level of equality would only remain for 1 generation. So every so often be it a generation or 60 years you would have to reset the money system all over again or else you risk having dynasties cropping up again and greed and power would reign supreme once once more.

Edited by Cubers (08/30/09 06:27 PM)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: Cubers]
    #10968231 - 08/30/09 06:36 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Cubers said:
Oh and even that system would not last because that level of equality would only remain for 1 generation. So every so often be it a generation or 60 years you would have to reset the money system all over again or else you risk having dynasties cropping up again and greed and power would reign supreme once once more.



Interestingly enough, this is exactly what ancient civilizations did.  The ancient Babylonians would have debt forgiveness every generation to prevent power from accumulating too much in the hands of the few.  This practice is preserved in the Bible with the Year of Jubilees, celebrated every 49 years.


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OfflineCubers
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: Silversoul]
    #10968482 - 08/30/09 07:11 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Wow thats fascinating,I didn't think such a thing ever existed. I would love to see it operating(id probably migrate there if it ever does happen again hah). It reminds me of the Amanita Muscaria life cycle.

And how come no one talks about babylonian economics in congress! I'd want some of dat :tongue2:

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Invisiblememes
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: Cubers]
    #10969534 - 08/30/09 09:34 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Because it's horribly impractical for the obscenely greedy populus that occupies the world today.  "Honor" and "your word" are concepts that are not held in high regard.

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Offlinesupra
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: Silversoul]
    #10969547 - 08/30/09 09:37 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Yrat said:
gold is a finite resource.  thus it has scarcity, and intrinsic value.



Nuclear waste is a finite resource too.  Apparently you don't understand supply and demand.




apparently you don't understand what he is speaking of, its not a matter of supply/demand..  Things that are scarce, all things, have intrinsic value, that is simple fact.

And yes, the fiat money is bullshit, but its the only system that allows the govt. to control things like inflation, the supply of money, the flow of money, the amount its actually worth, etc.

peace

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: supra]
    #10969589 - 08/30/09 09:45 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

supra said:
apparently you don't understand what he is speaking of, its not a matter of supply/demand..  Things that are scarce, all things, have intrinsic value, that is simple fact.



No, the point is that "intrinsic value" is a bullshit concept.  All value is subjective.  Prices are set by supply and demand, and scarcity only gives you the supply part of the equation.  The last economist to argue for any objective measure of value was Karl Marx.


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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: Silversoul]
    #10974382 - 08/31/09 06:06 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

supra said:
apparently you don't understand what he is speaking of, its not a matter of supply/demand..  Things that are scarce, all things, have intrinsic value, that is simple fact.



No, the point is that "intrinsic value" is a bullshit concept.  All value is subjective.  Prices are set by supply and demand, and scarcity only gives you the supply part of the equation.  The last economist to argue for any objective measure of value was Karl Marx.





80% of silver that is mined every year is used almost immediately for various industrial purposes.  It does, in fact, have intrinsic value.  U.S. Navy scientists have been researching nuclear fusion technology that requires platinum and palladium.  I'm working a lot lately but I can certainly get you the info on the U.S. Navy research...  It is outside of my scientific understanding but I can say it looks promising.  Precious metals have intrinsic value due to their various uses that have only increased over the years.  I can only see an economy where prices fall in relation to an increase in production of goods and services as being a good thing.  Indeed, that would appear to be a good example of economic prosperity.  Increasing the money supply does no good for the economy.  Increase the money supply and you only see a greater gap between the ultra wealthy and the increasingly impoverished middle class.

I do not see why anyone would want something as important as money to be controlled by government or central banks.

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OfflineCubers
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: Mr.Al]
    #10975982 - 08/31/09 09:58 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

80% of silver that is mined every year is used almost immediately for various industrial purposes. It does, in fact, have intrinsic value.  U.S. Navy scientists have been researching nuclear fusion technology that requires platinum and palladium.  I'm working a lot lately but I can certainly get you the info on the U.S. Navy research...  It is outside of my scientific understanding but I can say it looks promising.  Precious metals have intrinsic value due to their various uses that have only increased over the years.  I can only see an economy where prices fall in relation to an increase in production of goods and services as being a good thing.  Indeed, that would appear to be a good example of economic prosperity.  Increasing the money supply does no good for the economy.  Increase the money supply and you only see a greater gap between the ultra wealthy and the increasingly impoverished middle class.

I do not see why anyone would want something as important as money to be controlled by government or central banks.




Since when did intrinsic value have anything to do with facts? Intrinsic value is nothing more than a subjective value based on someones perception of an object in question. It is not even in the same ball park as far as facts are concerned. You're dogs portrait can have intrinsic value to you but mean nothing to someone else.

I snipped the actual definition so that one can see for one self

Financial Dictionary


Intrinsic Value

1. The value of a company or an asset based on an underlying perception of the value.

What I do think you have down is the fact that it is no ones business to get in the middle of a trade or business deal between two individuals or parties unless they want it so. Money is a way for someone else to get between you and anyone you are doing business with for the purpose of getting a little or big piece of the business deal. Don't you see? Money is government sanctioned regulation(control) and that regulation is supported by the major banking institutions who are invested in the federal reserve system. If you were to replace paper money with gold/silver/copper/corn and you will still be taxed on it by the government under the current setup and the banks would still claim to have the majority of it in their vaults(even though they could not) allowing them to loan out equally ficticious amounts.

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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: Cubers]
    #10980558 - 09/01/09 03:56 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

What you aren't looking at is that it would not be possible for banks to "print up" more precious metals when there was a run on the bank.  Thus, with an economy that uses precious metals as mediums-of-exchange the fractional reserve banking system would cease to exist.  Granted if it was merely paper backed by metal we would see it backed by less and less metal until you have the situation like we had with Nixon getting rid of the last tie the dollar had with gold in 1971.

If a real free market develops where only the market determines what is used as money then we would see the best prosperity that can be had in an economy that still has scarcity of resources and production.


Granted if there were virtually unlimited resources  and unlimited production capability money would be pointless because it would no longer be necessary to "economize" anything!

I recommend that you buy physical silver, here's why:

http://nationalexpositor.com/News/636.html

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OfflineCubers
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: Mr.Al]
    #10981084 - 09/01/09 05:06 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

They do not need to print up more precious metals. It's quite unecessary. If you were to go to the gold standard+silver standard+(add another precious metal) standard right now the banks would still be in possession of most of the wealth in precious metals, this would allow them to break up and distribute(and assign value) to this wealth so long as they manage the level of demand and supply in their favor. You would find for example that instead of coins a mere pellet of gold would have the value of a 100 dollar bill, because it was necessary to fractionalize it to such a degree and assign a new "intrinsic value" to this smaller unit of gold to maintain a working economy based on the exchange of precious metals. Suddenly the mildly absurd(how we value gold today) becomes the ludicrous when we assign a smaller portion of gold an even larger value then it has now in order to make sure everyone can have some gold, some bit of currency to trade for the things they need. And eventually when many people get frustrated that their isnt enough gold to go around for everyone the banks will come once again with promises(loans) many of which will be nothing more then a complete lie and the people who took those loans will have to pay for the lie, even if it did help initially with the purchase of this or that.

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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: Cubers]
    #10981203 - 09/01/09 05:25 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I do not propose that government or central banks control money.

In a world where scarcity exists money is useful because it is not feasible for an individual to produce everything that he needs.  Barter is problematic because not everyone wants whatever good or service you have to offer and most people will not have exactly what you presently want in exchange for what you have.

Government and banks did not create mediums-of-exchange, people realized that barter only brought them so far and thus mediums of exchange developed.

A good medium-of-exchange has several important characteristics that make it useful: it must be recognizably homogenous, easily divisible, portable, durable and nigh impossible to counterfeit.  Precious metals have uses and thus already were recognized as having value.  Being that they are homogenous in nature, that is the quality of said metal is recognizable when it is of high purity, it is accepted readily.  Precious metals are durable and thus store well.  This is important because storable wealth is necessary for future investments (personal economic planning) that are necessary for a developed economy (long term thinking). 



Of course paper money fails because it is too easy to counterfeit, even if it is the government that is doing the counterfeiting!



I mean to say that money in and of itself is an extremely useful thing at our stage of development.  It is the manipulation of the money by government, central banks, and fractional reserve banking systems that is the problem.

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