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Offlinecurious mouse
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the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money?
    #10931861 - 08/25/09 01:57 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

i don't like it. if we lose faith in its purchasing power then what happens?

also it seems like it is more susceptible to hyperinflation.

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: curious mouse]
    #10932611 - 08/25/09 06:23 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Fiat money should die. You can't have a currency backed by promises. A currency has to be backed by tangibles or it won't withstand the corruption of mankind.

An interesting material for a new store of wealth would be Deuterium. Any country in the world, and even private individuals, can mine deuterium which is a natural component of any water. Soon Fusion plants become operational and Deuterium can be burned thermonuclearly, yielding up to the equivalent of 336.4 billion joules of energy - 55.75 barrels of oil or 93.75 megawatt-hours of power - per gram. Additionally, Deuterium can be used advantageously today as a moderator in super-efficient uranium/thorium nuclear reactors, where its not used up butv required as a neutron moderator.

Deuterium can be handled as either deuterium oxide (liquid) or deuterated polyethylene (castable solid), two nonproblematic deuterium storage materials. Deuterium is precious and its price of mining is directly proportional to the price of energy. The greater our capacity to burn deuterium, the greater the amount of work can be done by the human race, so that inflation gets canceled out by cheaper energy anjd increased productivity.

Adopting Deuterium as the backing of world currencies makes a lot of sense to me. Its highly democratic - anyone who can lay down investment capital can produce deuterium and become an energy producer.




Quote:

Merry Math Section

Barrel of oil equivalent (boe) = approx. 6.1 GJ (5.8 million Btu), equivalent to 1,700 kWh. "Petroleum barrel" is a liquid measure equal to 42 U.S. gallons (35 Imperial gallons or 159 liters); about 7.2 barrels oil are equivalent to one tonne of oil (metric) = 42-45 GJ.

1 gram of Deuterium = 336.4 GJ = 93.75 megawatt-hours = 55.15 barrels of oil
at ideal 100% energy efficiency as:
6 D -> 2 He-4 + 2n + 2p + 43.24 MeV
(D --> 7.2 MeV = 3.6 MeV/gr)

Realistically 1 gram of deuterium contained in 30 liters of water should be able to yield the equivalent of 10 barrels of oil so if you dabble with the numbers a bit it should be possible to get 50 barrels of oil's worth of recoverable clean energy out of each barrel of water the planet holds - without using up the water.




--------------------
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higher knowledge starts here

Edited by Asante (08/25/09 06:29 AM)

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OfflineYrat
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: Asante]
    #10932732 - 08/25/09 07:20 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

i'm wondering if you have any links as to how deuterium could be used as a fuel?  essentially it is water, with two extra neutrons, so i'm curious to know how one could "burn" it. 

as for fiat money, it has been the cause for countless societal downfalls throughout mankind's history.  it is woefully ignorant to think someone finally got it right this time around.  it should be eliminated, and i believe it is only a matter of time before it eliminates itself, as it has always done through history, without one single exception.


--------------------
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: curious mouse]
    #10933108 - 08/25/09 09:35 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

curious mouse said:
i don't like it. if we lose faith in its purchasing power then what happens?



The same thing that happens if we lose our faith in gold.  EVERY currency is faith-based.

Fiat money is NOT the problem.  The problem is that the money supply is controlled by private banks, when money is properly a function of government.  Banks should get out of the governing business.  That's why I advocate a system of debt-free fiat money issued by the government, with full-reserve banking(if you click the "Web of Debt" film in Wiccan_Seeker's sig, you'll see the benefits of this explained).

Now, I know there are some who fear the consequences of government spending money like a kid in the candy store.  The history of government-controlled money(as opposed to privately controlled) contradicts this.  But even so, if we are to peg our currency to something, it should not be some arbitrary metal which bears no relation to the needs of the population.  If anything, we should peg our currency to the Consumer Price Index, so that if inflation happens, the money supply is restricted, and if deflation happens, it expands.  Thus, the money would remain neither inflationary nor deflationary.


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OfflineYrat
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: Silversoul]
    #10933118 - 08/25/09 09:37 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

gold is a finite resource.  thus it has scarcity, and intrinsic value.

paper is limitless, and thus worthless.


--------------------
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root

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Offlinekadakuda
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: Yrat]
    #10933265 - 08/25/09 10:15 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

gold is a finite resource.  thus it has scarcity, and intrinsic value.

paper is limitless, and thus worthless.




true but its only mankind that gives it the title of worthless or priceless.  i *think* SS is saying, we give gold its value, if no one likes it anymore, it is also worthless.  worth is like a global popularity contest.  if no one wants/needs something, its useless.  if something is wanted by many and cannot keep up with demand its valuable.  humans like shiny things that are easy to make things with, gold fits in :smile:

gold, seashells, goats, paper with ink  etc etc....its all only given value by the majority.  so i guess in a "down to earth basic" thought process, the only thing that is really always going to be valuable is food, water and shelter.  things we cant really decide are not good anymore, cause we die.

im in the old school of thought, property and survival is what counts...until someone with more guns shows up to take it....so guns are valuable as well :tongue:


--------------------
The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.

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Offlinecurious mouse
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: kadakuda]
    #10933316 - 08/25/09 10:28 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

it is not worthless even if it is given up as a luxury item....

it is preferred to use in many electronic devices.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: Yrat]
    #10933333 - 08/25/09 10:31 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Yrat said:
gold is a finite resource.  thus it has scarcity, and intrinsic value.



Nuclear waste is a finite resource too.  Apparently you don't understand supply and demand.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: curious mouse]
    #10933347 - 08/25/09 10:33 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

curious mouse said:
it is not worthless even if it is given up as a luxury item....

it is preferred to use in many electronic devices.



That's actually a good reason not to use it as money:  it would raise the price of gold so much as to make its use in electronics prohibitively expensive.


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Offlinecurious mouse
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: Silversoul]
    #10933408 - 08/25/09 10:50 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

well i wasn't necessarily argueing that it should be used to back up currency....just that it does infact have intrinsic value.

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OfflineYrat
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: Silversoul]
    #10933524 - 08/25/09 11:17 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Yrat said:
gold is a finite resource.  thus it has scarcity, and intrinsic value.



Nuclear waste is a finite resource too.  Apparently you don't understand supply and demand.




i don't understand supply and demand?  lol.  nuclear waste has no demand, and is an invalid and completely worthless comparison.  what about the uranium used to make that waste?  a finite resource, with intrinsic value due to the labor invested in removing it from the earth and refining it to purity.

gold has demand, and is a finite resource.  it has intrinsic value from its rarity, and the labor invested in removing it from the earth and refining it to purity.  sure, of course you can argue that its value is based on faith, but this faith is based on the fact that no government can ever inflate the supply of gold.  if people lost faith in gold, of course it would lose its value (aside from uses in electronic applications) but people are more likely to use nuclear waste for currency before that ever happens.


--------------------
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: Yrat]
    #10933632 - 08/25/09 11:37 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Yrat said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Yrat said:
gold is a finite resource.  thus it has scarcity, and intrinsic value.



Nuclear waste is a finite resource too.  Apparently you don't understand supply and demand.




i don't understand supply and demand?  lol.  nuclear waste has no demand, and is an invalid and completely worthless comparison.  what about the uranium used to make that waste?  a finite resource, with intrinsic value due to the labor invested in removing it from the earth and refining it to purity.



Ah, so now you include demand into the equation.

Quote:

but this faith is based on the fact that no government can ever inflate the supply of gold.



That is precisely the problem.  If you set a strict limit on the supply of money, then you will get deflation as production expands past the money supply.  Under deflation, production and investment stagnate as people hold onto dollars rather than spending them or investing them.  The fact is, you only should have enough money on you for what you will need in the near future.  Any money you plan to have years from now should be invested.  People often hold onto money when their confidence in the market is low.  This would certainly be the case under a gold standard, as deflation would negatively affect stocks, and make people afraid to take out loans which will cost them even more to pay off as the value of the money they owe increases.  A gold standard would cause unnecessary stagnation, recession, and suffering.


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OfflineYrat
Hello

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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: Silversoul]
    #10933774 - 08/25/09 11:57 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

i do not believe deflation would lead to stagnation.  it is a common myth that during deflation people would hoard their money to spend at a later date.  people will always need goods and services, and will buy them when required.  a slow rise in the dollar's worth would be a bonus to consumers, and is a sign of economic productivity.

look at the tech industry if you want a good example of whether or not people spend money while prices drop.  prices drop incredibly fast as new technologies come out.  does this stop people from buying a new tv/computer/iPod?  of course not, and it's silly to assume they would.  this is a direct parallel to a state of deflation.

deflation is good for the consumer, but bad for the state.  it's easy to see why the deflation boogey man was created to serve this purpose.



--------------------
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: Yrat]
    #10933973 - 08/25/09 12:19 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Yrat said:
i do not believe deflation would lead to stagnation.  it is a common myth that during deflation people would hoard their money to spend at a later date.  people will always need goods and services, and will buy them when required.  a slow rise in the dollar's worth would be a bonus to consumers, and is a sign of economic productivity.



Naturally people will spend enough to support themselves, but they will not invest in capital when holding onto dollars provides better returns.  Thus, stagnation follows.

Quote:

look at the tech industry if you want a good example of whether or not people spend money while prices drop.  prices drop incredibly fast as new technologies come out.  does this stop people from buying a new tv/computer/iPod?  of course not, and it's silly to assume they would.  this is a direct parallel to a state of deflation.



Looking at a single sector and extrapolating for the whole economy is intellectually dishonest.  The fact is that if the the dollar deflates, foreclosures will increase, investment will drop, and more and more people will be trapped in debt slavery.

Quote:

deflation is good for the consumer, but bad for the state.  it's easy to see why the deflation boogey man was created to serve this purpose.



Tell that to all the people who suffered under the toxic deflation of the 1930's.


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OfflineYrat
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: Silversoul]
    #10934966 - 08/25/09 02:45 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

what are your thoughts on the video?


--------------------
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root

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InvisibleArmFromTheAbyss
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: Yrat]
    #10935093 - 08/25/09 03:02 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Yrat said:
gold is a finite resource.  thus it has scarcity, and intrinsic value.

paper is limitless, and thus worthless.





A)There was hyperinflation in Spain when the conquistadors brought back tons of silver from South America. Besides jewelry, what intrinsic value does gold have? I can see why in prison  cigarettes are currency and have intrinsic value because you can smoke them. How do you consume gold? Goldschlager I guess. Gold stores value because it has no intrinsic value, and its durable.

B) Most money isn't paper currency, its book entries on bank balance sheets. Do you think they just print up stacks of $100 bills and shower it upon the countryside? It's called fiat money because the whole system is based on the faith in the ability for debtors to repay creditors. There's a big problem with the system when people can't pay their debts. This is what is troubling the economy today.


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OfflineYrat
Hello

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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: ArmFromTheAbyss]
    #10935131 - 08/25/09 03:10 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

A)  gold is popular because it can't be destroyed, thus it was naturally chosen as a store of value for thousands of years.  it still has popularity today, and personally i believe it will be MUCH more popular in the near future.

B) what are you talking about?


--------------------
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: Yrat]
    #10935681 - 08/25/09 04:47 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Yrat said:
what are your thoughts on the video?



Just another idiot with a video camera.  YouTube is full of such assholes.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: Yrat]
    #10936664 - 08/25/09 06:58 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

i'm wondering if you have any links as to how deuterium could be used as a fuel?  essentially it is water, with two extra neutrons, so i'm curious to know how one could "burn" it.





You mean heavy water, I mean heavy hydrogen. And you burn it like so:

(1)  21D  +  31T  →  42He  (  3.5 MeV  )  +  n0  (  14.1 MeV  )
(2i)  21D  +  21D  →  31T  (  1.01 MeV  )  +  p+  (  3.02 MeV  )            50%
(2ii)        →  32He  (  0.82 MeV  )  +  n0  (  2.45 MeV  )            50%
(3)  21D  +  32He  →  42He  (  3.6 MeV  )  +  p+  (  14.7 MeV  )
(4)  31T  +  31T  →  42He        +  2 n0            +  11.3 MeV
(5)  32He  +  32He  →  42He        +  2 p+            +  12.9 MeV
(6i)  32He  +  31T  →  42He        +  p+  +  n0        +  12.1 MeV    51%
(6ii)        →  42He  (  4.8 MeV  )  +  21D  (  9.5 MeV  )            43%
(6iii)        →  42He  (  0.5 MeV  )  +  n0  (  1.9 MeV  )  +  p+  (  11.9 MeV  )  6%



Basically, if you heat Deuterium to 0.2 MeV you get 7.2 MeV out. Thats right, up to 32x as much energy as you put in! Oil rigs nowadays produce less than 5x the energy we put in. What you need is a Fusion Reactor and we are well underway to build a successful one.

Its the way hydrogen bombs work. They burn deuterium as fuel. We have burned tons at a time of the stuff, now what we need is a kind of nuclear oven where it will burn with a steady burn and give off all that free energy.

ITER


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here

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OfflineYrat
Hello

Registered: 11/08/07
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Re: the shroomery's thoughts on fiat money? [Re: Silversoul]
    #10936883 - 08/25/09 07:29 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Yrat said:
what are your thoughts on the video?



Just another idiot with a video camera.  YouTube is full of such assholes.




yeah, it's much easier to label someone and blow them off than refute their points, isn't it.


--------------------
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root

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