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InvisibleGreen_T
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Rethinking strategy key to battling drugs [TX]
    #10903367 - 08/21/09 09:14 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Rethinking strategy key to battling drugs
08/11/2009 - El Paso Times

EL PASO -- It is time to retire the "war on drugs" catchphrase, President Barack Obama's chief drug policy adviser said Monday at UTEP.

Speaking to about 600 people at the sixth annual Border Security Conference, R. Gil Kerlikowske said this administration's drug strategy will not be a war because a war limits what can be done.

"If the only tool is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail," said Kerlikowske, director of the U.S. Office of National Drug Control Policy. "That phrase -- war on drugs -- tells you that the only answer is in fact force. ... We want to have a different conversation when it comes to drugs."

The term "war on drugs," coined by President Nixon 40 years ago, does not adequately describe what Obama's strategy will entail, Kerlikowske said.

Kerlikowske said his visit to El Paso was part of a national tour to solicit ideas before making recommendations to the president. Once unveiled, Obama's drug strategy will probably include treatment centers, education, drug courts, more cooperation with Mexico and increased law enforcement, Kerlikowske said.

What it will not include is the legalization of drugs.

"Some think legalization will reduce the violence," Kerlikowske said. "It will not. If drugs were to become legal, I doubt very seriously that (the criminals) would take up jobs at Microsoft or Intel. Criminals are not going to change."

He was one of several high-ranking officials at the conference, which began Monday at the University of Texas at El Paso. Organized by U.S. Rep. Silvestre Reyes, D-Texas, its main goals are to provide policymakers in Washington, D.C., with a firsthand look at how their decisions affect the border, and to give El Pasoans a chance to tell national leaders what programs work.

The United States first declared a "war on drugs" in 1969, when Nixon escalated efforts to stop the flow of drugs at U.S. ports of entry.

Though the phrase is catchy, experts say it is not working because illegal drug consumption in the United States has risen every year, drug production throughout the world is up and drug-smuggling cartels are in a protracted war in Mexico.

Until the new Obama policy is announced, the United States will continue a strategy implemented earlier this year, said U.S. Rep. Ciro Rodriguez, D-Texas.

It includes inspection of southbound vehicles at ports of entry as federal agents continue to try to stop the flow of guns and cash into Mexico. Weapons and money are used by the cartels to protect their billion-dollar industry.

Another strategy that will continue is the Merida Initiative. Through it, the United States has agreed to spend $1.4 billion to help Mexico fight the cartels.

Alan Bersin, border czar of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, urged those at the conference to be patient with Mexico as it fights the cartels. He said it took the United States 25 years to rid itself of the mafia that thrived in this country in the 1960s and 70s.

It might take Mexico just as long because it has to cleanse all of its law enforcement agencies, Bersin said.

But Howard Campbell, a UTEP professor who is an expert on Mexican drug cartels, said the strategy being used by Mexican President Felipe Calderón to fight the cartels was flawed.

He said Calderón was relying too much on the military, which is also prone to corruption.

"Despite an initial decline in crime when the military got involved, 2009 is now on its way to being the most deadly year," he said.

Throughout Mexico, more than 12,000 people have been killed since the drug cartel violence began in 2008. In Juárez alone, there were 1,600 killings in 2008. So far this year, more than 1,100 people have been killed in Juárez.


--------------------

"I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" - Thomas Jefferson

Legalize Meth | Drug War Victims

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Offlinefatalplus
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Re: Rethinking strategy key to battling drugs [TX] [Re: Green_T]
    #10903446 - 08/21/09 09:37 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

"Criminals are not going to change."

Then why set up rehab centers? Or even have prisons at all? With that type of thinking why not just execute all "criminals".

It's like a large group of people got together and decided, "hm... if we change the name from 'the war [on drugs]' then we can't be losing it, right? Right?" The hypocrisy is astounding...

Edited by fatalplus (08/21/09 09:50 AM)

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OfflineIslandminded
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Re: Rethinking strategy key to battling drugs [TX] [Re: Green_T]
    #10903457 - 08/21/09 09:42 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

How can the war on drugs be rethought without at least entertaining the idea of legalization, without this consideration there isn't any thought at all just vague political appeals.  The death toll isn't high enough to really change people's minds yet I guess.


Quote:

Green_T said:
Rethinking strategy key to battling drugs
08/11/2009 - El Paso Times

"If the only tool is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail," said Kerlikowske, director of the U.S. Office of National Drug Control Policy. "That phrase -- war on drugs -- tells you that the only answer is in fact force. ... We want to have a different conversation when it comes to drugs."






This quote held such fucking promise too!  Disappointment.

Edited by Islandminded (08/21/09 09:49 AM)

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InvisibleGreen_T
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Re: Rethinking strategy key to battling drugs [TX] [Re: Islandminded]
    #10903487 - 08/21/09 09:51 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

When will these dolts realize that cartels only exist because they can fill a HUGE gap in the market?

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OfflineRaijin
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Re: Rethinking strategy key to battling drugs [TX] [Re: Green_T]
    #10903510 - 08/21/09 09:58 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Green_T said:
When will these dolts realize that cartels only exist because they can fill a HUGE gap in the market?




QFT

Legalization of certain key drugs like pot and mushrooms would create an explosion of commerce that this economy desperately needs and would put a hurting on organized crime.

Who wants to buy illegal pot when they can buy legal pot?


--------------------
Everything I post is an artistic work of fiction.  Only a fool would take anything I post as fact.

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Offlinefatalplus
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Re: Rethinking strategy key to battling drugs [TX] [Re: Raijin]
    #10903608 - 08/21/09 10:27 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Raijin said:

Legalization of certain key drugs like pot and mushrooms would create an explosion of commerce that this economy desperately needs and would put a hurting on organized crime.






False, false, false. Can you name even one large/dangerous cartel that deals primarily in pot, let alone mushrooms. These are the two cheapest, easiest to do-it-yourself drugs there are and the government would gain very little from legalizing and perhaps lose even more in the form of court fines and state/federal prison and law enforcement funding, etc, hence the government has very little incentive to legalize them. The only way to put a dent in the organized crime would be to legalize ALL drugs. This would immediately dry up the cartels/gangs income and as a byproduct stop other forms of organized crime including human and weapons trafficking. Also, if you believe at all in the personal freedom argument, you would see that it not only SHOULD be done for the above stated reasons, but it's just the RIGHT thing to do.


--------------------
America, fuck yeah! Comin' again to save the motherfuckin' day, yeah!

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InvisibleGreen_T
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Re: Rethinking strategy key to battling drugs [TX] [Re: fatalplus]
    #10903656 - 08/21/09 10:42 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

^ I've heard from multiple sources that Pot is the major source of revenue for Mexican cartels (not mushrooms though). Meth, Coke, and Heroin are the next. It is true that ALL drugs need to be legalized for organized crime to go away (and for freedom's sake), but marijuana would certainly put a dent in their revenue.

They grow a large amount in forests, and even if you get local hydro, someone is buying the mexican brick. Not everyone who smokes pot wants to or can do it. I know tons of people who smoke pot, but few who grow. Every dollar exchanged between a buyer and a dealer represents 10 cents or so that isn't going to the government. It adds up!

In California alone, while the wine industry is worth 2 billion, and the weed industry is worth 14 billion. The revenue loss is like killing the wine industry 7 times over.

It is true that the government makes money off of fines, and corporations earn money by building new jails, but the economic impact is great. There are many people who are otherwise qualified and cant get good jobs/lose scholarships because of pot convictions.


--------------------

"I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" - Thomas Jefferson

Legalize Meth | Drug War Victims

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Offlinefatalplus
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Re: Rethinking strategy key to battling drugs [TX] [Re: Green_T]
    #10903768 - 08/21/09 11:28 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Green_T said:
^ I've heard from multiple sources that Pot is the major source of revenue for Mexican cartels.




My mistake, guess it's just my east coast bias coming through here :smile: But otherwise I agree, and was just tossing things out there to spark up debate. I myself was thrown out of BU (also spent three months in county) after being arrested for possession with intent to sell. I'm now working at a grocery store full time to pay tuition up front just to go to a hole-in-the-wall community college. Shit sucks and I was really bitter about it for a long time, but I just realized there ain't shit one person can do about it but be more careful and head west :smile:  I'm only 21 now, and as much as I hate to admit it, I can't see drug laws being reformed at the federal level during my lifetime.


--------------------
America, fuck yeah! Comin' again to save the motherfuckin' day, yeah!

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OfflineBombKitten
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Re: Rethinking strategy key to battling drugs [TX] [Re: fatalplus]
    #10904397 - 08/21/09 01:07 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

"Some think legalization will reduce the violence," Kerlikowske said. "It will not. If drugs were to become legal, I doubt very seriously that (the criminals) would take up jobs at Microsoft or Intel. Criminals are not going to change."




Oh good, so drugs and criminality are mutually exclusive and drugs do not necessarily cause crimes.

Phew, glad we got that cleared up.

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Invisiblebuddhabadger
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Registered: 01/16/09
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Re: Rethinking strategy key to battling drugs [TX] [Re: BombKitten]
    #10904602 - 08/21/09 01:43 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

These "reform" announcements always start out so promising, but by the 2nd sentence, we're right back where we were.
Painting a red Ferrari orange doesn't magically turn it into a Lamborghini, Gil.

Starting to get tired of this bait n switch bullshit and I'm starting to understand how Charlie Brown felt when he'd play football with Lucy.


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- I don't abuse drugs; in fact, I think I treat them quite nicely. -

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OfflineSubconscious
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Re: Rethinking strategy key to battling drugs [TX] [Re: buddhabadger]
    #10904840 - 08/21/09 02:18 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

"Some think legalization will reduce the violence," Kerlikowske said. "It will not. If drugs were to become legal, I doubt very seriously that (the criminals) would take up jobs at Microsoft or Intel. Criminals are not going to change."




So instead we let the criminals take control of a multi billion dollar a year operation allowing them to become even more powerfull. :rolleyes:

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OfflineOrgasmicBanana
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Re: Rethinking strategy key to battling drugs [TX] [Re: Subconscious]
    #10906541 - 08/21/09 06:12 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

its not just the lawmakers, its not justobama, the united states has to be to a point where it will be totally accepted to legalize drugs before it will ever happen. hopefully california will legalize weed, i think its a really good moment right now, people are thinking about it and accepting it, because of the terrible state mexico is in right now and because of the terrible economy and huge budget problems. change has to come slowly. imagine what would happen if drugs were just legalized all of a sudden. people would go ballistic. even though our views make the most sense, they're very radical to most people.

obama is a puppet and neither he nor his little puppets will change shit. the american people will have to do it, and its going to take FOREVER. so no reason to get excited over anything with his name in it imo.

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Offlinefatalplus
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Re: Rethinking strategy key to battling drugs [TX] [Re: OrgasmicBanana]
    #10906995 - 08/21/09 07:07 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OrgasmicBanana said:
its not just the lawmakers, its not justobama, the united states has to be to a point where it will be totally accepted to legalize drugs before it will ever happen. hopefully california will legalize weed, i think its a really good moment right now, people are thinking about it and accepting it, because of the terrible state mexico is in right now and because of the terrible economy and huge budget problems. change has to come slowly. imagine what would happen if drugs were just legalized all of a sudden. people would go ballistic. even though our views make the most sense, they're very radical to most people.

obama is a puppet and neither he nor his little puppets will change shit. the american people will have to do it, and its going to take FOREVER. so no reason to get excited over anything with his name in it imo.





Very much agreed  except for one point. All 'recreational' drugs were made completely illegal less than 100 years ago. Now I'm no tin-foil-hat subliminal message conspirator, but the masses today, all tuned into their CNN's or FOX' or MSNBC's or whatever, are getting their daily dose of anti-drug propaganda drip-fed on the daily. We might not have the same freedom of press laws as Russia in the early 1900's (or lack there-of) but you sure as hell can't tell me big brother isn't keeping a close eye and illegitimizing at every opportunity opposing viewpoints. Case in point would be (and not singling out Obama by any means, just an example)  Obamas' dismissal of the 'online audience' when the question of medical marijuana was brought up. Point being, in the 1930's, before the advent of mass communication, it was easy to pass whatever the hell you wanted as a lawmaker/congressman. In the age of now, where the people are basically tweaked and dialed by their favorite news outlets, it's as easy or hard to pass something as ridiculous as the Patriot Act or as simple as health care reform. State law is far and away surpassing federal law in every way simply because it relies more on it's individual constituents rather than the zombified masses. I can't say I agree with everything California lawmakers are doing (for Christs sake, how in the fuck does Nanci Pelosi keep getting elected) but for the most part they're leading the country towards the path of the freedom of the state and individual. Who woulda thunk Ahnuld would have turned out the way he has?


--------------------
America, fuck yeah! Comin' again to save the motherfuckin' day, yeah!

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OfflineNova

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Re: Rethinking strategy key to battling drugs [TX] [Re: Subconscious]
    #10908253 - 08/21/09 10:06 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Subconscious said:
Quote:

"Some think legalization will reduce the violence," Kerlikowske said. "It will not. If drugs were to become legal, I doubt very seriously that (the criminals) would take up jobs at Microsoft or Intel. Criminals are not going to change."




So instead we let the criminals take control of a multi billion dollar a year operation allowing them to become even more powerfull. :rolleyes:




Exactly. I'm glad we're on the right track ending the war on drugs mess but this black and white thinking is still flawed logic. While legalizing drugs wont eliminate all crime overnight, it will severely reduce the currently super powerful, violent drug cartels, down to mere small time street thugs IMO. And doing this is becoming more important everyday, I mean look at the crazy shit they are doing down in mexico. They are a huge gurilla army with tons of resources, I dont think mexico even knows what to do about it anymore. They threaten the whole political atmosphere of mexico.

Think of why people involve themselves in these cartels. Think of why police and officials are swayed by their influence. Its all in the $$$$. They are crazy if they think those people do it just to 'be criminals'. Sure some will stick around and thug it up. But for most, the choice is making pennies a day versus making a solid chunk of change. Introduce nation wide 'drug stores' (legalization) and this huge lucrative market dries up into basically profit margins resembling the food industry.

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OfflineEdgeChaos
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Re: Rethinking strategy key to battling drugs [TX] [Re: Nova]
    #10916407 - 08/22/09 10:57 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

"If drugs were to become legal, I doubt very seriously that (the criminals) would take up jobs at Microsoft or Intel. Criminals are not going to change."

This makes total sense if we legalized drug use or decriminalized.

People say legalization and assume that others know what they are talking about.

You have to specify "the legalization of drug sales by legitimate businesses" to rule out any possibility that the cartels will still exist.

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Offlinedondoodle
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Re: Rethinking strategy key to battling drugs [TX] [Re: fatalplus]
    #10917036 - 08/23/09 12:26 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

BombKitten said:
Quote:

"Some think legalization will reduce the violence," Kerlikowske said. "It will not. If drugs were to become legal, I doubt very seriously that (the criminals) would take up jobs at Microsoft or Intel. Criminals are not going to change."




Oh good, so drugs and criminality are mutually exclusive and drugs do not necessarily cause crimes.

Phew, glad we got that cleared up.





Quote:

fatalplus said:
Quote:

Raijin said:

Legalization of certain key drugs like pot and mushrooms would create an explosion of commerce that this economy desperately needs and would put a hurting on organized crime.






False, false, false. Can you name even one large/dangerous cartel that deals primarily in pot, let alone mushrooms. These are the two cheapest, easiest to do-it-yourself drugs there are and the government would gain very little from legalizing and perhaps lose even more in the form of court fines and state/federal prison and law enforcement funding, etc, hence the government has very little incentive to legalize them. The only way to put a dent in the organized crime would be to legalize ALL drugs. This would immediately dry up the cartels/gangs income and as a byproduct stop other forms of organized crime including human and weapons trafficking. Also, if you believe at all in the personal freedom argument, you would see that it not only SHOULD be done for the above stated reasons, but it's just the RIGHT thing to do.




You are quite wrong on this as long as you accept a few known conditionals. It takes at least 3-4 months to grow marijuana. It takes at least 6 weeks to grow shrooms. You can make beer in as little as 3 weeks. Yet most people buy beer. All of those drugs can be grown in your home with beer being the cheapest of all. Yet very few people make their own beer. Why? Time, quality considerations and laziness. Now if taxes get absolutely outrageous or people have more time than money then you might have a point. I say everything points toward people purchasing both mushrooms and marijuana should they be legalized.


--------------------
End American imperialism and colonization around the world and among the people conquered within the domestic empire.

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Offlinedondoodle
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Re: Rethinking strategy key to battling drugs [TX] [Re: Subconscious]
    #10917068 - 08/23/09 12:31 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Subconscious said:
Quote:

"Some think legalization will reduce the violence," Kerlikowske said. "It will not. If drugs were to become legal, I doubt very seriously that (the criminals) would take up jobs at Microsoft or Intel. Criminals are not going to change."




So instead we let the criminals take control of a multi billion dollar a year operation allowing them to become even more powerfull. :rolleyes:




I don't like to demonize cartels as they provide a service. As long as they provide a quality product and don't rip you off then I see them as the heros in this battle. The government unnecessarily colluding to keep prices high and availability low are the criminals in this war. Of course that doesnt address the issue of the government and cartels colluding together. We dont know which politicians are working for the drug cartels and which are not, besides of course the ones who take campaign contributions from the drug (pharmaceutical) companies. Those people definitely work for the cartels.


--------------------
End American imperialism and colonization around the world and among the people conquered within the domestic empire.

Edited by dondoodle (08/23/09 12:48 AM)

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