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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Serious Question
    #10882957 -

Why is it that believers can never point to any real-world results (other than anecdote) from their practices and skeptics always can?

How many failures does it take to 'get it'?


--------------------

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Re: Serious Question [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10883150 -

It's because believers accept the method they're using as legitimate, and focus on the proper application of the said method rather than the logic behind the method. As a result, any failure to obtain convincing results can be attributed to improper application of the method rather than the legitimacy of the method itself.

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Re: Serious Question [Re: Sventington]
    #10883207 -

Is this related to the meditation thread earlier?

What do you have to object to if someone feels that meditation has lessened their desires, calmed their minds, improved their concentration, etc.?  Do you want everyone to subject themselves to rigorous testing to see if the subjective results of everyone's habits, hobbies, and practices are verifiable?  What does that matter in the least if the subjective improvement is felt?


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: Serious Question [Re: Lion]
    #10883226 -

Quote:
Is this related to the meditation thread earlier?



No.


--------------------

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Re: Serious Question [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10883311 -

Oh, my apologies then.  Nevertheless, my response may be pertinent, as you mentioned the results of "practices"...Could you elaborate on the practices to which you are referring?


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Serious Question [Re: Lion]
    #10884288 -

Lion said:
What does that matter in the least if the subjective improvement is felt?


What if your child was a schizophrenic who hallucinated Sigmund Freud giving him good psychological advice which improved his life? It wouldn't matter to you in the least, huh? :rolleyes:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Serious Question [Re: Poid]
    #10884343 -

Poid said:
Lion said:
What does that matter in the least if the subjective improvement is felt?


What if your child was a schizophrenic who hallucinated Sigmund Freud giving him good psychological advice which improved his life? It wouldn't matter to you in the least, huh? :rolleyes:

A child-parent relationship is different because one party is responsible for protecting the other.  I am talking about fully developed adults practicing meditation. 

Also, there are major differences in that hallucinating a person giving you advice is an extreme delusion often accompanied by self-harm, psychoses, etc., while it would be tough to argue that meditation has caused a significant percentage of its practitioners to engage in psychotic behavior or self-harming behavior.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Serious Question [Re: Lion]
    #10884378 -

"A child-parent relationship is different because one party is responsible for protecting the other.  I am talking about fully developed adults practicing meditation."

That was just a random example...what if, instead of your child, this individual was your (adult) sibling?


"Also, there are major differences in that hallucinating a person giving you advice is an extreme delusion often accompanied by self-harm, psychoses, etc., while it would be tough to argue that meditation has caused a significant percentage of its practitioners to engage in psychotic behavior or self-harming behavior."

But for the sake of this argument, suppose there was no serious risk of self-injury, psychosis, etc. For some reason, you keep adding irrelevant variables to my examples...


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Serious Question [Re: Poid]
    #10884417 -

Poid said:
What if your child was a schizophrenic who hallucinated Sigmund Freud giving him good psychological advice which improved his life? It wouldn't matter to you in the least, huh? :rolleyes:


Regardless of the nature of the child's internal program, as long as it only served to benefit himself and didn't create any harm for others, and it didn't at some point result in some incongruence later on that would cause problems, what would be the problem?
It isn't as if there is some preferred model for someone's internal programming, provided that reality isn't challenging its basis and creating conflicts as a result.
I think it would be more preferential, in fact, than the people who more or less aren't nearly as deluded but nonetheless create problems for others and aren't to capable of managing their life. :wink:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Serious Question [Re: fireworks_god]
    #10884491 -

"Regardless of the nature of the child's internal program, as long as it only served to benefit himself and didn't create any harm for others, and it didn't at some point result in some incongruence later on that would cause problems, what would be the problem?"

Let's suppose that we don't know whether or not this child's schizophrenia could cause him/her to harm others, or if it would at some point result in some incongruence that would later solve problems; do we now have a potential problem?


"It isn't as if there is some preferred model for someone's internal programming, provided that reality isn't challenging its basis and creating conflicts as a result."

Agreed.


"I think it would be more preferential, in fact, than the people who more or less aren't nearly as deluded but nonetheless create problems for others and aren't to capable of managing their life."

So long as it only served to benefit himself and didn't create any harm for others, and it didn't at some point result in some incongruence later on that would cause problems, I totally agree! :yesnod:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Serious Question [Re: Poid]
    #10884601 -

Poid said:
Let's suppose that we don't know whether or not this child's schizophrenia could cause him/her to harm others, or if it would at some point result in some incongruence that would later solve problems; do we now have a potential problem?


Potentially, yet I wouldn't wager on how much more or less there would potentially be a problem as compared to anyone potentially having a problem with their present mental state. The individual in question could simply have a mind that functions in interactive images. :grin:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Serious Question [Re: Poid]
    #10884604 -

Poid said:
"A child-parent relationship is different because one party is responsible for protecting the other.  I am talking about fully developed adults practicing meditation."

That was just a random example...what if, instead of your child, this individual was your (adult) sibling?


"Also, there are major differences in that hallucinating a person giving you advice is an extreme delusion often accompanied by self-harm, psychoses, etc., while it would be tough to argue that meditation has caused a significant percentage of its practitioners to engage in psychotic behavior or self-harming behavior."

But for the sake of this argument, suppose there was no serious risk of self-injury, psychosis, etc. For some reason, you keep adding irrelevant variables to my examples...

I keep doing that? :lol:

How are risks an irrelevant variable?  Isn't that what matters most if we are talking about whether we should be concerned by others' actions?  The risk to that person's well-being and that of people with whom he interacts?

If there was no risk of injuring oneself or anyone else, and the advice helped that person lead a fulfilling life, then sure, that would be great.  In that case it would be safer to hallucinate than to chop onions or drive a car.  Hallucinate away!


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Serious Question [Re: fireworks_god]
    #10884648 -

"Potentially, yet I wouldn't wager on how much more or less there would potentially be a problem as compared to anyone potentially having a problem with their present mental state."

Really? You wouldn't be more worried about a little girl who listens to a hallucination that tells her to do things than just some random Joe Shmoe? :what:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Serious Question [Re: Poid]
    #10884679 -

Poid said:
Really? You wouldn't be more worried about a little girl who listens to a hallucination that tells her to do things than just some random Joe Shmoe? :what:


Not necessarily, no. I would need more information regarding the specific case to determine what kind of risks there would be. :shrug:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Serious Question [Re: Poid]
    #10884691 -

Believers of what OC?


--------------------

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Re: Serious Question [Re: Lion]
    #10884702 -

Lion said:
Is this related to the meditation thread earlier?

What do you have to object to if someone feels that meditation has lessened their desires, calmed their minds, improved their concentration, etc.?  Do you want everyone to subject themselves to rigorous testing to see if the subjective results of everyone's habits, hobbies, and practices are verifiable?  What does that matter in the least if the subjective improvement is felt?




It doesn't, neccesarily.



I don't get why people always make this point.  One person says x, another says y, then the person who said x complain they're trying to suppress their thought or are intruding into their private beliefs.


Christ, if you don't want to talk about it, then don't talk about it.  I don't see how someone saying "that doesn't make sense" is any different then someone saying "no, it does make sense".  How is the person claiming telepathy is wrongly believed any different than someone saying it isn't?  They are both asserting the opposite, and disagreeing.


Finally, I've not seen orgone claim it is neccesarily any of his buisness, only that people's assertions that believing into such phenomena is a logical belief is wrong.  Given the nature of this forum, it would be presumed people who post here are interested in teh philosophical justification for their beliefs, and if they're not, they should probably go to another forum if such discussion is going to upset them- given they're uncomfortable with the entire purpose of this forum.

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Re: Serious Question [Re: fireworks_god]
    #10884708 -

Or you could just take simple statistics into consideration; on average, disturbed people are more likely to cause harm to themselves or others than non-disturbed people. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Serious Question [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10884730 -

Believer in what?  I know I have had out of the body experiences, because during sleep paralysis, I can bring the hands of my astral body out of my physical body, open my physical eyes and see the hands of my astral body.


--------------------

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Re: Serious Question [Re: Poid]
    #10884740 -

Poid said:
Or you could just take simple statistics into consideration; on average, disturbed people are more likely to cause harm to themselves or others than non-disturbed people. :shrug:


Source? :rolleyes:


--------------------

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Re: Serious Question [Re: GI_Luvmoney]
    #10884743 -

GI_Luvmoney said:
Believer in what?  I know I have had out of the body experiences, because during sleep paralysis, I can bring the hands of my astral body out of my physical body, open my physical eyes and see the hands of my astral body.


Prove it.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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