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OfflinePandeist
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Simmer then Soak? Or Soak Then Simmer?
    #10880988 - 08/18/09 05:21 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Or soak then simmer then soak?
Or simmer soak simmer simmer simmer soak simmer?

But really, simmer then soak or the other way around?
:confused:

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OfflineLostkeys
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Re: Simmer then Soak? Or Soak Then Simmer? [Re: Pandeist]
    #10881005 - 08/18/09 05:34 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Soak then simmer... make sure you don't burst too many grains, and that the WBS passes the spoon or hand test prior to loading it into your jars.


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Offlineveda_sticks
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Re: Simmer then Soak? Or Soak Then Simmer? [Re: Lostkeys]
    #10881144 - 08/18/09 07:07 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

soak then simmer. the soak softens the outside of the grain and hydrates some. then when you simmer in rehydates it more. If you dont soak before simmering the grains can burst because the outside isnt soft enough


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Re: Simmer then Soak? Or Soak Then Simmer? [Re: veda_sticks]
    #10881186 - 08/18/09 07:22 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Yes. Also, you should bring the pot to a boil before straining, even if it's already hydrated. This will help the water evaporate off the grain, per RR.

He also points out that unboiled water has bacteria and can stink up your pipes.


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InvisibleCitric
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Re: Simmer then Soak? Or Soak Then Simmer? [Re: veda_sticks]
    #10881275 - 08/18/09 08:09 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

veda_sticks said:
soak then simmer. the soak softens the outside of the grain and hydrates some. then when you simmer in rehydates it more. If you dont soak before simmering the grains can burst because the outside isnt soft enough




The main reason we soak is to germinate the endospores, which often can survive normal PCing


--------------------
Self Healing lid tek ** Update 10.17.17 **
Mini casing pictures: Pins to harvest
Cup O' Shrooms
Magash:  I noticed my contams were in the shape of fingers :whack:
Hyphae:  Yes  "Loss of moisture from the substrate"  is not a casing trigger.  :cuckoo:

My final Grow!

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Re: Simmer then Soak? Or Soak Then Simmer? [Re: Citric]
    #10881297 - 08/18/09 08:17 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I believe that's outdated info.
I don't want to argue it, it's been discussed a lot. But there's more than one reason to soak, and some are more valid than others. Anybody can search and make their own conclusions.
But I think we all agree that soaking and then simmering is the way to go.


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Offlineapoonanor
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Re: Simmer then Soak? Or Soak Then Simmer? [Re: Doc_T]
    #10881300 - 08/18/09 08:19 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

i have to agree with doc-t. the endospore thing is old info. the sole reason for soaking is to rehydrate the grains and to rinse off any yuck that might be on them. answer to OP, soak then simmer.

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InvisibleCitric
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Re: Simmer then Soak? Or Soak Then Simmer? [Re: Doc_T]
    #10881302 - 08/18/09 08:19 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Doc_T said:
I believe that's outdated info.
I don't want to argue it, it's been discussed a lot. But there's more than one reason to soak, and some are more valid than others. Anybody can search and make their own conclusions.
But I think we all agree that soaking and then simmering is the way to go.




I never said it was the only reason, I said the main reason =)


--------------------
Self Healing lid tek ** Update 10.17.17 **
Mini casing pictures: Pins to harvest
Cup O' Shrooms
Magash:  I noticed my contams were in the shape of fingers :whack:
Hyphae:  Yes  "Loss of moisture from the substrate"  is not a casing trigger.  :cuckoo:

My final Grow!

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InvisibleCitric
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Re: Simmer then Soak? Or Soak Then Simmer? [Re: apoonanor]
    #10881309 - 08/18/09 08:21 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

apoonanor said:
i have to agree with doc-t. the endospore thing is old info. the sole reason for soaking is to rehydrate the grains and to rinse off any yuck that might be on them. answer to OP, soak then simmer.




Where do you see that this is out dated information lol?

Secondly, soaking is not to rehydrate the grains, that is what simmering does.  Soaking is used to soften the shell to prevent excess bursting during simmer/pc, and to germinate endospores.

Simmering if for making sure the grains have the correct water content.


--------------------
Self Healing lid tek ** Update 10.17.17 **
Mini casing pictures: Pins to harvest
Cup O' Shrooms
Magash:  I noticed my contams were in the shape of fingers :whack:
Hyphae:  Yes  "Loss of moisture from the substrate"  is not a casing trigger.  :cuckoo:

My final Grow!

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Simmer then Soak? Or Soak Then Simmer? [Re: Citric]
    #10881345 - 08/18/09 08:36 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Not really outdated info, but the idea of long soaks has been shown counterproductive.  I and several other growers have observed bacterial endospores that have germinated, begin forming new endospores within a few hours.  Thus, if you soak 36 hours, or possibly even 24, you might end up with more endospores than you started with.  Since some always survive even pressure cooking, the fewer you start out with the better.

If you soak less than four hours, you'll have lots of burst kernels when you PC, and they cause other problems from the released starches.  Personally, I've adjusted my schedule to rinse the grains and begin soaking in hot tap water just before bed time, and the next morning, I start the boiling/PC process while drinking my morning coffee.  This is usually a 7 to 9 hour soak period and seems to work very well.

Bear in mind, in my own work I'm seriously anal about contamination and consider a 99% success rate to be a 1% failure rate which is not acceptable.  Thus I try to split hairs looking for that elusive 100%.  Shorter soak times have narrowed that gap somewhat.
RR


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Re: Simmer then Soak? Or Soak Then Simmer? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10881351 - 08/18/09 08:38 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Not really outdated info, but the idea of long soaks has been shown counterproductive.  I and several other growers have observed bacterial endospores that have germinated, begin forming new endospores within a few hours.  Thus, if you soak 36 hours, or possibly even 24, you might end up with more endospores than you started with.  Since some always survive even pressure cooking, the fewer you start out with the better.

If you soak less than four hours, you'll have lots of burst kernels when you PC, and they cause other problems from the released starches.  Personally, I've adjusted my schedule to rinse the grains and begin soaking in hot tap water just before bed time, and the next morning, I start the boiling/PC process while drinking my morning coffee.  This is usually a 7 to 9 hour soak period and seems to work very well.

Bear in mind, in my own work I'm seriously anal about contamination and consider a 99% success rate to be a 1% failure rate which is not acceptable.  Thus I try to split hairs looking for that elusive 100% success ratio.  Shorter soak times have narrowed that gap somewhat.
RR




Agreed!  I have always prepped my jars either when I goto bed or when I wake up, and PC'd them within 16 hours.


--------------------
Self Healing lid tek ** Update 10.17.17 **
Mini casing pictures: Pins to harvest
Cup O' Shrooms
Magash:  I noticed my contams were in the shape of fingers :whack:
Hyphae:  Yes  "Loss of moisture from the substrate"  is not a casing trigger.  :cuckoo:

My final Grow!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineapoonanor
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Re: Simmer then Soak? Or Soak Then Simmer? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10881358 - 08/18/09 08:39 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Secondly, soaking is not to rehydrate the grains, that is what simmering does.  Soaking is used to soften the shell to prevent excess bursting during simmer/pc, and to germinate endospores.

not to be argumentative, but the reason the shells soften is because they are absorbing water. the reason they are hard in the first place is because they have been dried out. the main reason for soaking, aside from cleaning the grain, is to begin rehydrating so the grains don't burst during the simmer.

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Re: Simmer then Soak? Or Soak Then Simmer? [Re: apoonanor]
    #10881376 - 08/18/09 08:42 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

apoonanor said:
Secondly, soaking is not to rehydrate the grains, that is what simmering does.  Soaking is used to soften the shell to prevent excess bursting during simmer/pc, and to germinate endospores.

not to be argumentative, but the reason the shells soften is because they are absorbing water. the reason they are hard in the first place is because they have been dried out. the main reason for soaking, aside from cleaning the grain, is to begin rehydrating so the grains don't burst during the simmer.




Well of course putting the grain in water it is going to absorb some of it, but our goal while soaking is not to get moisture content correct.  It is to germinate the endospores, and to soften the shells(If you want to call this hydrating them, then technically you are correct.  However, this is not what we are trying to achieve here).

To clean the grain?  That is why we rinse.  If you take a bath full of dirty water, you will not be clean!


--------------------
Self Healing lid tek ** Update 10.17.17 **
Mini casing pictures: Pins to harvest
Cup O' Shrooms
Magash:  I noticed my contams were in the shape of fingers :whack:
Hyphae:  Yes  "Loss of moisture from the substrate"  is not a casing trigger.  :cuckoo:

My final Grow!

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InvisibleDoc_T
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Re: Simmer then Soak? Or Soak Then Simmer? [Re: Citric]
    #10881416 - 08/18/09 08:53 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Citric said:
Quote:

apoonanor said:
i have to agree with doc-t. the endospore thing is old info. the sole reason for soaking is to rehydrate the grains and to rinse off any yuck that might be on them. answer to OP, soak then simmer.




Where do you see that this is out dated information lol?




I see it in my knowledge of microbiology, and in my own experience.

Endospores are tough, but bacteria are prolific. Under ideal conditions, bacteria can reproduce every 20 minutes. In 4 hours, one can become more than 4000. Since you can never kill all of them, you should try to start with as few as possible.

But bacterial endospores aren't anywhere near as much of a problem for cultivators as spores. Mold, especially trich. And soaking doesn't really affect them much either way, unless the spores were dry and needed rehydration.

I believe that the 'endospore thing' is based on a passage in Stamets that has been misinterpreted over the years, like so many others. He mentions in one part that endospores are a potential contaminant of grain. But in that same section, he describes a grain prep with zero soak time.

Also, not all bacteria even form endospores. Bacillus doesn't, for example.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Simmer then Soak? Or Soak Then Simmer? [Re: Doc_T]
    #10881450 - 08/18/09 09:02 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

But in that same section, he describes a grain prep with zero soak time.




Which results in about 20% or more burst kernels, and major sticking problems due to the grain dust that isn't rinsed away.  Bear in mind, he wrote that book in the mid 80s when we were all just beginning to learn this stuff.  A lot of progress has been made since then.

Check out how Amycel, the world's largest producer of grain spawn prepares their grain.  It's exactly by the tek I describe in my DVD, only on a larger scale.  I don't know if they got that method from me or developed it on their own, but their profit or loss depends on the highest success rate possible.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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OfflineProject
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Re: Simmer then Soak? Or Soak Then Simmer? [Re: Citric]
    #10881479 - 08/18/09 09:09 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Citric said:
Quote:

apoonanor said:
Secondly, soaking is not to rehydrate the grains, that is what simmering does.  Soaking is used to soften the shell to prevent excess bursting during simmer/pc, and to germinate endospores.

not to be argumentative, but the reason the shells soften is because they are absorbing water. the reason they are hard in the first place is because they have been dried out. the main reason for soaking, aside from cleaning the grain, is to begin rehydrating so the grains don't burst during the simmer.




Well of course putting the grain in water it is going to absorb some of it, but our goal while soaking is not to get moisture content correct.  It is to germinate the endospores, and to soften the shells(If you want to call this hydrating them, then technically you are correct.  However, this is not what we are trying to achieve here).

To clean the grain?  That is why we rinse.  If you take a bath full of dirty water, you will not be clean!




WBS is so freaking dirty out of the bag.  I rinse that like it's going out of style!  :thumbup:

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OfflineGrumble121
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Re: Simmer then Soak? Or Soak Then Simmer? [Re: Pandeist]
    #10881507 - 08/18/09 09:17 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I have had excellent sucess with soaking, but no simmer.  Soak overnight, drain / rinse 3 or 4 times, put in colander until no water drips off, put in jars, PC.

It works great for me, and takes little effort.  I only have sticking problems with really cheap WBS with cracked corn, and even then it is nothing that some vigorous shaking will not overcome.

Jars seem to colonize reasonably fast with no contams, with G2G transfers of pints taking roughly 8 to 10 days to fully colonize, and MS inoculation of pints taking 2 weeks to complete.

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Re: Simmer then Soak? Or Soak Then Simmer? [Re: Grumble121]
    #10881536 - 08/18/09 09:25 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I have always soaked and simmered my WBS.  I get fully colonized quarts in 7-9 days from multispore inoculation.

With WBS you can get away with not soaking because the count of endospores is not as high as that of Rye.  But even so, I do not see it beneficial to cut out 12-16 hours and risk losing my jars due to being lazy.  This hobby is not hard what so ever, and cutting corners can turn something very simple and easy, into a very complicated and up in the air thing.


--------------------
Self Healing lid tek ** Update 10.17.17 **
Mini casing pictures: Pins to harvest
Cup O' Shrooms
Magash:  I noticed my contams were in the shape of fingers :whack:
Hyphae:  Yes  "Loss of moisture from the substrate"  is not a casing trigger.  :cuckoo:

My final Grow!

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OfflineGrumble121
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Re: Simmer then Soak? Or Soak Then Simmer? [Re: Citric]
    #10881564 - 08/18/09 09:34 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Oh, I soak for sure, I just never bother to simmer.  Colonization doesn't seem unreasonably slow, but not really fast either. 

Simmering is just something that does not work good with my current setup, my stove is broke so I just use a hilariously underpowered hotplate on a huge PC, and everything takes a VERY long time to get PCed.

I just turn it on, come back 5 or 6 hours later, and usually it has reached 15 PSI by then.

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Re: Simmer then Soak? Or Soak Then Simmer? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10881570 - 08/18/09 09:34 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

But in that same section, he describes a grain prep with zero soak time.




Which results in about 20% or more burst kernels, and major sticking problems due to the grain dust that isn't rinsed away.  Bear in mind, he wrote that book in the mid 80s when we were all just beginning to learn this stuff.  A lot of progress has been made since then.

Check out how Amycel, the world's largest producer of grain spawn prepares their grain.  It's exactly by the tek I describe in my DVD, only on a larger scale.  I don't know if they got that method from me or developed it on their own, but their profit or loss depends on the highest success rate possible.
RR




Right, right- I wasn't saying that we should use that zero-soak method (though I have and it works). All I was saying is that he seemed less concerned about endospores than many of the OMC.

True it was written a long time ago in internet years, but in the history of microbiology and mycology, it's a relative newcomer. Endospores aren't a recent discovery.

(I normally use your method when I prep grain. But I've tried a lot of different methods, just to see.)


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