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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: sandman3698]
    #10858349 - 08/14/09 09:41 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Noobie lost his nerves? :lol:

Ok, so you said:

Quote:

How is this a lie when its because of pagan religions that we know about the psychoactive plants




So obviously, whether they were used before and outside religion or not is of great importance, since you were tying to prove how, without religion, we wouldn't have been aware of the existence of psychoactive pants. Duh! :imslow:

Quote:

Since whether they were sought for religion or used by people and eventually helped create religion, shows that the people who followed these religions were greatly interested in insight.




How does it show that? Explain please.

Quote:

And LSD was discovered by accident, and is also chemically synthesized, so i doubt people thousands of years ago were using it.




Exactly my point. Aren't you even aware when you're contradicting your previous claims?
Yes, LSD was discovered as a psychedelic by accident, but this only shows one more time the humanity could have done and did great at discovering and using psychedelics even without religion poop and crap. :grin:

Quote:

so try and make an argument that's logical, thanks.




Hey, buddy, did you read your last post by any chance? :rofl2:
If not, maybe you should cause if I were you I wouldn't feel so confident to tell other people to be logical while making stupid posts like yours. :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineSventington
am what I am what I am what I am

Registered: 01/17/09
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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Fraggin]
    #10858549 - 08/14/09 10:57 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Fraggin said:
Even the Native Americans have their own Diety.
I once read that they experienced a great flood as well.




I think it varied from tribe to tribe. The belief I remember was in something called Gitche Manitou, or great spirit. They believed everything had it's own manitou, from rocks to fish to us, and collectively it formed Gitche Manitou.

If anyone sees I've actually got this wrong, please feel free to correct me.

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Offlinesandman3698
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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10858555 - 08/14/09 10:58 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

OK the first comment was a mistake since no one can truly know which came first.
And its obvious they were interested in insight by the way they would try and make sense of everything. if they weren't they would have just ate the plants and forgot about the experience instead of writing it down.
And how exactly is my LSD comment contradicting my previous claims?


--------------------
Insanity in individuals is something rare -- but in groups, parties, nations, and epochs it is the rule. -Nietzche

What luck for the rulers that men do not think. -Adolf Hitler

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InvisibleFerris
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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Ferris]
    #10865119 - 08/15/09 03:00 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Ok, just a couple random thoughts here (PS: my internet was out the last 2-3 days),

Premise: let's assume there is a supreme creator being who doesn't directly converse with us.  Life is some sort of test of character.

Now, whose character is better:

A. The good man who does everything morally right as per the scripture, which he has no idea whether the morals in it are true, and relies on the assurances of others to tell him what to do.

B. The good man who does everything ethically right to the best of his knowledge through judging his surroundings and attempting to learn and adapt to them to make them better.

The first benefits from the collective knowledge of ancestors, but is prone to manipulation and is inflexible to changing time.

The second can be erratic and erroneous in it judgment and has other inherent limitation.s

While one could make an argument for each being better or worse than the other in practical use, I believe that the latter makes the better man, or soul in this case.  If this supreme being needs minions that know how to follow, he is not supreme.  If he is attempting to create new, intelligent life capable of independent thought, the latter is better.  Perhaps we will be part of a collective consciousness, so therefore independent thought and flexibility is over-rated, but that is another premise entirely, and certainly one that doesn't hold true to life on Earth, and thus judgment should not be applied thusly.

I think the answer to either god's existence or the nature of god lies in the question "why create human beings?"

"Because he can" or "because he loves us" somehow don't seem sufficient.  This carries an inherent lack of purpose not in line with the notion of a supreme being.

"Because he needs us for ______" would also mean that's he's not supreme.

Perhaps our definition of supreme is limited.  God could have the power of all the universe/multiverse and is thus "omnipotent."  If adding us and integrating us into it somehow increases the size/power/essence of the universe, then god could become "more omnipotent," which would satisfy both the question of god's nature and the reason for our existence.

Atheism can benefit greatly by pushing the above argument.  Now that I typed it I realize I've heard it before in a simpler quote form, but my version is a lot more logical than what I've heard.  The antithesis is "I'll worship god just in case, it can't hurt," which is deeply flawed considering the number of religions, many in direct conflict.


--------------------

Discuss Politics

Edited by Ferris (08/15/09 06:18 PM)

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Ferris]
    #10866527 - 08/15/09 07:39 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Why do most assume that any God that exists, must be a judge of some sort?

As for why create humans... I'm struggling with that question myself.

Stanislav Grof recounts a story of a woman in an altered state of consciousness describing the birth of the universe. Basically, 4 Gods decided that they wanted to set the wheels in motion on a grand experiment. Why? To see what would happen, of course. But they were Gods, and thus omniscient, so how could they hide the outcome from themselves? Fragment themselves and create the universe, breathing themselves into it. The biggest trick was developing a mechanism that makes them continually forget who they really are.

Another way of saying this is:
God's greatest feat was in making himself believe he doesn't exist.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Edited by Kickle (08/15/09 07:42 PM)

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InvisibleFerris
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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Kickle]
    #10866575 - 08/15/09 07:45 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Why do most assume that any God that exists, must be a judge of some sort?




Ya, that premise was mainly meant for Abrahamic religions and a few others.  To me, it's clearly a mechanism of control, but it could also be seen as a mechanism of improving individuals.  Responsibility is a difficult trait to establish, and this is one of the easier ways to discover it.

Lol at the rest of that post.  Seems more of a fun thought experiment than a serious religion.


--------------------

Discuss Politics

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Ferris]
    #10866591 - 08/15/09 07:48 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

The post wasn't about a religion, it was about an experience of some lady on a psychedelic drug. :shrug:

But what is the question of "why create humans" but a thought experiment in the first place?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibleFerris
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Re: How does Atheism prevail? *DELETED* [Re: Kickle]
    #10866651 - 08/15/09 08:03 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Post deleted by Ferris

Reason for deletion: .



--------------------

Discuss Politics

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: sandman3698]
    #10866706 - 08/15/09 08:14 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

sandman3698 said:
OK the first comment was a mistake since no one can truly know which came first.
And its obvious they were interested in insight by the way they would try and make sense of everything. if they weren't they would have just ate the plants and forgot about the experience instead of writing it down.
And how exactly is my LSD comment contradicting my previous claims?





And with that you've gained my respect far more than most folks have.


It sucks to be wrong at times, but a logical and intellectually honest person will admit when they've hastily made a claim to a position they can't support :thumbup:


Stick around

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Ferris]
    #10867154 - 08/15/09 09:33 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Well I personally like the explanation of God creating existence to experience it. And in order to experience it, there was a process of forgetting. It places the responsibility where it should be, and reminds us that we should appreciate our existence.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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