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InvisibleLivioDoubleFang
Outlaw of the Midwest
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Registered: 06/29/09
Posts: 788
Need some expert advice....
    #10860946 - 08/14/09 05:39 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Ok, So I inoculated all of my jars this morning from about 1 a.m. to 4 a.m. and currently keeping them in my closet which is about 2 1/2 to 3 ft. in height and about 2 ft. wide.  They are are nice and snug in there boxes which they came in and are sitting on about 6 inches of cardboard off the ground with a space heater blowing warm air in the general direction which they are laying.  The temp reads anywhere from 82-84 degrees for the enclosed room temperature, but when I feel the jars they dont really feel warm at all.

BTW, the space heater is about 1 ft. away from the jars.

Does what I have going on sound ideal for success or failure on colonizing these jars?

What can I do that would be more benficial and a less chance of contams? I have a 10% bleach and 90% H2O spray bottle and I spray a couple of times after entering the chamber...jars are protected with foil and WBS jars have paper towel tops w/ rubber bands around them.

Also, I have this light set up for an aqaurium, its about 32 in. long, bulbs are 30 in., one says 30 watt and produces a bluish/purple light and the other bulb is twice as big, dont know the wattage, but when its on for about an hour in a room thats about 8ft. by 12ft. in size, you can notice a subtle temperature change in the air.....could I possibly keep this on in my chamber mentioned before and use it as a heating source?

The only way I know the temperature, or relative temp. is from the space heater as I dont have a thermometer as of right now.

Any expert advice is greatly appreciated, you will be rewarded with a print if all goes well.


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"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"    -Gandhi

“I, as a responsible adult human being, will never concede the power to anyone to regulate my choice of what I put into my body, or where I go with my mind. From the skin inwards is my jurisdiction, is it not? I choose what may or may not cross that border. Here I am the customs agent. I am the coastguard. I am the sole legal and spiritual government of this territory, and only the laws I choose to enact within myself are applicable” - Alexander Shulgin

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InvisibleDallasP
Hostile Monkey


Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 251
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: Need some expert advice.... [Re: LivioDoubleFang]
    #10861033 - 08/14/09 05:57 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Sounds like a recipe for fail. Take the space heater away. Your jars won't feel warm to the touch right now because the spores haven't finished germinating. Once your mycelium colony is going, it will produce its own internal heat, which assuming you don't live in the arctic, is more than enough for incubation. The higher the temperature, the more chance there is of bacterial contamination.

Take the foil off if you have lids with holes on the jars. Not so critical right now, but assuming all went well, your mycelia are going to need some gas exchange pretty soon.

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InvisibleLivioDoubleFang
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Registered: 06/29/09
Posts: 788
Re: Need some expert advice.... [Re: DallasP]
    #10861050 - 08/14/09 06:01 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DallasP said:
Sounds like a recipe for fail. Take the space heater away. Your jars won't feel warm to the touch right now because the spores haven't finished germinating. Once your mycelium colony is going, it will produce its own internal heat, which assuming you don't live in the arctic, is more than enough for incubation. The higher the temperature, the more chance there is of bacterial contamination.

Take the foil off if you have lids with holes on the jars. Not so critical right now, but assuming all went well, your mycelia are going to need some gas exchange pretty soon.




I was just going to say, I put medical tape on the inoculation point and using sterile proceedures put the disinfected needle through the tape leaving a small hole where the needle stuck through, and thats why I have foil over them, afraid of contams getting in and getting a hold.

So keep the heater off , keep at room temp., and uncover and I should be golden??


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"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"    -Gandhi

“I, as a responsible adult human being, will never concede the power to anyone to regulate my choice of what I put into my body, or where I go with my mind. From the skin inwards is my jurisdiction, is it not? I choose what may or may not cross that border. Here I am the customs agent. I am the coastguard. I am the sole legal and spiritual government of this territory, and only the laws I choose to enact within myself are applicable” - Alexander Shulgin

Edited by LivioDoubleFang (08/14/09 06:06 PM)

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InvisibleDallasP
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Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 251
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: Need some expert advice.... [Re: DallasP]
    #10861059 - 08/14/09 06:03 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Also, for your bulbs, you need something that puts out light in the 5000K to 6500K range. You can buy CFL bulbs that will do this, and not produce much heat, which you don't want in your fruiting chamber. I use 23-watt 6500K daylight CFLs, and they are amazing.

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InvisibleDallasP
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Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 251
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: Need some expert advice.... [Re: LivioDoubleFang]
    #10861091 - 08/14/09 06:10 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

LivioDoubleFang said:
I was just going to say, I put medical tape on the inoculation point and using sterile proceedures put the disinfected needle through the tape leaving a small hole where the needle stuck through, and thats why I have foil over them, afriad of contams getting in and getting a hold.

so keep the heater off , keep at room temp., and uncover and I should be golden??




If you have a dry vermiculite layer, then this and the lid are all the barrier you need against airborne contaminants getting it. That is its purpose. Leaving the foil on will quite possibly cause your cake to stall after a certain point of growth, because it will have used up all the available oxygen in the jar, and no gas exchange is happening to replenish its supply.

As long as your room temperature is somewhere close to 70F, you don't need any kind of temperature control, just let em incubate in their box and they'll provide their own internal heat. If it gets really cold where you are, you can always wrap the box in a blanket to insulate it a bit.

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InvisibleLivioDoubleFang
Outlaw of the Midwest
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Registered: 06/29/09
Posts: 788
Re: Need some expert advice.... [Re: DallasP]
    #10861151 - 08/14/09 06:48 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DallasP said:
Quote:

LivioDoubleFang said:
I was just going to say, I put medical tape on the inoculation point and using sterile proceedures put the disinfected needle through the tape leaving a small hole where the needle stuck through, and thats why I have foil over them, afriad of contams getting in and getting a hold.

so keep the heater off , keep at room temp., and uncover and I should be golden??




If you have a dry vermiculite layer, then this and the lid are all the barrier you need against airborne contaminants getting it. That is its purpose. Leaving the foil on will quite possibly cause your cake to stall after a certain point of growth, because it will have used up all the available oxygen in the jar, and no gas exchange is happening to replenish its supply.

As long as your room temperature is somewhere close to 70F, you don't need any kind of temperature control, just let em incubate in their box and they'll provide their own internal heat. If it gets really cold where you are, you can always wrap the box in a blanket to insulate it a bit.




Thanks for the bit of information...went ahead and did what you said, if all goes well, which I assume it will from what I hear about how easy they are to grow, then you will be receiving an Amazonian and South American print free of charge, pending they are good prints...but no matter, I have supreme faith that the research I have done on here in the past couple of months and advice received from you and other, I will have a very successful first grow.

Keep in touch, pics to be added to my grow log


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"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"    -Gandhi

“I, as a responsible adult human being, will never concede the power to anyone to regulate my choice of what I put into my body, or where I go with my mind. From the skin inwards is my jurisdiction, is it not? I choose what may or may not cross that border. Here I am the customs agent. I am the coastguard. I am the sole legal and spiritual government of this territory, and only the laws I choose to enact within myself are applicable” - Alexander Shulgin

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InvisibleDallasP
Hostile Monkey


Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 251
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: Need some expert advice.... [Re: LivioDoubleFang]
    #10861220 - 08/14/09 07:05 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Good luck man! Provided you sterilize your substrate properly, and use good aseptic techniques, they'll pretty much grow themselves from here on out. The trick is to be patient.

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Invisible13shroomsM
Lightning Shaman
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Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 26,719
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Re: Need some expert advice.... [Re: DallasP]
    #10861266 - 08/14/09 07:12 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The trick is to be patient.




best advice ever.:thumbup:

if you can follow a tek or just do things right its all about waiting.


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Offlineheadofmike
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Re: Need some expert advice.... [Re: 13shrooms]
    #10861338 - 08/14/09 07:27 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I'm confused. Why is he talking about lights, but he's incubating pf jars? I use a space heater to incubate my grow room. It works well, better than any Tit I've ever used. Why did you need expert advice? Why would an expert care if you gave them a print? Well, have patience like the others said, I'd move the space heater away from the jars a lil bit, and also turn down the temp a slight amount. Other than that, if you didn't frigg up the inoculation process you should notice some growth soon enough.

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InvisibleDallasP
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Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 251
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: Need some expert advice.... [Re: headofmike]
    #10861406 - 08/14/09 07:40 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

If you'll read, he was thinking about using the light from his FC as a heat source. As for the space heater, it's totally unnecessary, and dangerous to leave running when not home.

Room temperature, or between 70-76F, is perfectly adequate for incubation, no additional heat source is necessary. If you don't want to believe me, then here's RR on the matter. He seems to be some sort of authoritative Jesus figure around here.

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Internal jar temps above 82F actually slow down mycelium growth, and also stimulate contaminant molds.  If your incubator is running 81F to 84F, your internal jar temps are going to be 85 to 90, considering that glass is an insulator and mycelium produces heat as it colonizes.



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Offlineshangrila
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Re: Need some expert advice.... [Re: DallasP]
    #10861493 - 08/14/09 07:56 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

he means well by offering a print, nothing wrong with that.  and if you notice most people who start off need opinions or mainly reassurence, also due to impatience or anxiousness, i have nothing against it.  one day he might be helping others.

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OfflineLostkeys
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Re: Need some expert advice.... [Re: shangrila]
    #10861550 - 08/14/09 08:04 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Just a friendly reminder.. your body temperature is near 98.6... I don't think things feel warm unless they're above this temperature, in which case your jars would be screwed.  That would be a LONG way from the optimum colonization temperatures.

Drop the space heater, unless of course you live in an igloo.


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Offlineheadofmike
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Registered: 08/09/07
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Re: Need some expert advice.... [Re: shangrila]
    #10861577 - 08/14/09 08:06 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DallasP said:
If you'll read, he was thinking about using the light from his FC as a heat source. As for the space heater, it's totally unnecessary, and dangerous to leave running when not home.

Room temperature, or between 70-76F, is perfectly adequate for incubation, no additional heat source is necessary. If you don't want to believe me, then here's RR on the matter. He seems to be some sort of authoritative Jesus figure around here.

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Internal jar temps above 82F actually slow down mycelium growth, and also stimulate contaminant molds.  If your incubator is running 81F to 84F, your internal jar temps are going to be 85 to 90, considering that glass is an insulator and mycelium produces heat as it colonizes.






RR says this because he doesn't want noobs to give there poor spores the oven treatment. Nothing wrong, with incubating your jars (or thinking for yourself!)
Quote:

shangrila said:
he means well by offering a print, nothing wrong with that.  and if you notice most people who start off need opinions or mainly reassurence, also due to impatience or anxiousness, i have nothing against it.  one day he might be helping others.



Your right, I'm now going to be more patient with posts that seem off the wall to me, as I was there once too. Party on.

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InvisibleDallasP
Hostile Monkey


Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 251
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: Need some expert advice.... [Re: headofmike]
    #10861642 - 08/14/09 08:20 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

headofmike said:
RR says this because he doesn't want noobs to give there poor spores the oven treatment. Nothing wrong, with incubating your jars (or thinking for yourself!)




Spores can survive temperatures well above what your average space heater is capable of producing. It's the mycelium that's in danger of cooking. And there is something wrong with incubating your jars.



As you can see, growth drops off sharply after 86F. I've tested the temperatures inside several jars at various stages of mycelial growth, and found that storing the jars at a constant ambient room temperature of 76F, the internal temperature of the jars ranged from 82-86F. You can use your incubator if you want to, but there is something wrong with it in most normal situations. As for thinking for yourself, if you were to do so, you would have already found this out by using your own thermometer to find out whether or not incubation was necessary.

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Offlineshangrila
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Re: Need some expert advice.... [Re: headofmike]
    #10861647 - 08/14/09 08:21 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

i heard igloos can keep quite warm  lol

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InvisibleSRHooM
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Re: Need some expert advice.... [Re: shangrila]
    #10861687 - 08/14/09 08:30 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

We really need to find where people are seeing that they need to incubate there jars @ 82-84 °F

I know that "The Mushroom Cultivator" states,
Substrate Temperature: 84-86 °F

But nowhere does it say incubate your spawn @ 84-86 °F

or does it..

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Offlineheadofmike
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Re: Need some expert advice.... [Re: SRHooM]
    #10861780 - 08/14/09 08:47 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I incubate at 80-81 degrees and have always been tremendously happy with my results. Which raises the temps in the jars to say ohhh, 84ish.
I'm not looking for a pissing contest. Especially when it concerns simple facts. Mycelium grows fastest as the chart above, and also from the mushroom cultivator states that cubensis mycelium grows fastest at around 86 degrees. I personally have found this to be very true. If you don't wanna incubate, don't. I, and anybody who wants to speed up their jars by a couple of days does.

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InvisibleLivioDoubleFang
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Registered: 06/29/09
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Re: Need some expert advice.... [Re: headofmike]
    #10861797 - 08/14/09 08:51 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

headofmike said:
I incubate at 80-81 degrees and have always been tremendously happy with my results. Which raises the temps in the jars to say ohhh, 84ish.
I'm not looking for a pissing contest. Especially when it concerns simple facts. Mycelium grows fastest as the chart above, and also from the mushroom cultivator states that cubensis mycelium grows fastest at around 86 degrees. I personally have found this to be very true. If you don't wanna incubate, don't. I, and anybody who wants to speed up their jars by a couple of days does.




I just really want steady growth without risking contamination, I have already removed the foil from the cake jars, but I left the paper towel filters over the WBS jars cuz I dont want to risk it.

As for incubating, took the heater out and just placed a wool blanket over it, I will probably leave them alone as is in the closet and check on them Monday to see if there is any progress on any of the jars.


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"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"    -Gandhi

“I, as a responsible adult human being, will never concede the power to anyone to regulate my choice of what I put into my body, or where I go with my mind. From the skin inwards is my jurisdiction, is it not? I choose what may or may not cross that border. Here I am the customs agent. I am the coastguard. I am the sole legal and spiritual government of this territory, and only the laws I choose to enact within myself are applicable” - Alexander Shulgin

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InvisibleDallasP
Hostile Monkey


Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 251
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: Need some expert advice.... [Re: headofmike]
    #10861846 - 08/14/09 09:01 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

headofmike said:
I incubate at 80-81 degrees and have always been tremendously happy with my results. Which raises the temps in the jars to say ohhh, 84ish.
I'm not looking for a pissing contest. Especially when it concerns simple facts. Mycelium grows fastest as the chart above, and also from the mushroom cultivator states that cubensis mycelium grows fastest at around 86 degrees. I personally have found this to be very true. If you don't wanna incubate, don't. I, and anybody who wants to speed up their jars by a couple of days does.





I'm done after this, but I'd like to point two things out.

1: You just guessed what the temperatures in your jars were, I actually took a thermometer and found out, and what I found out was that the temperature inside the jars was up to 10 degrees higher than ambient room temperature with the jars stored at said ambient room temperature inside a cardboard box.

2: Growth drops off much more rapidly at temperatures higher than optimum than it does at temperatures less than optimum. Notice that 3.6 degrees lower temperature than optimum has linear growth of ~28mm, while 3 degrees higher than optimum has linear growth of ~25mm, where optimal growth is ~32mm. The differences become more drastic the farther the swing is. Nine degrees lower than optimum produces linear growth of ~23mm, 9mm off from optimum. Nine degrees higher than optimum produces linear growth of ~16mm, which is 16mm off from optimum.

The moral of that story is that it is better to have temperatures lower than optimum, than it is to have temperatures higher than optimum.  All of that is only taking into account linear growth of the mycelium, and not other factors. As RR stated, internal jar temperatures above 82F leave one at increased risk of contamination, the consideration of which, when combined with what I have just shown, makes for a very good argument against incubating one's jars. If you choose to do so after reading this, then that's your thing. But please don't advise new growers to engage in practices which have been shown to have detrimental effects.

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InvisibleDallasP
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Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 251
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: Need some expert advice.... [Re: LivioDoubleFang]
    #10861864 - 08/14/09 09:08 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

LivioDoubleFang said:
I just really want steady growth without risking contamination, I have already removed the foil from the cake jars, but I left the paper towel filters over the WBS jars cuz I dont want to risk it.




paper towel is breathable enough you should be fine. What are you using for a filter on the WBS jars?

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InvisibleLivioDoubleFang
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Re: Need some expert advice.... [Re: DallasP]
    #10861900 - 08/14/09 09:15 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DallasP said:
Quote:

LivioDoubleFang said:
I just really want steady growth without risking contamination, I have already removed the foil from the cake jars, but I left the paper towel filters over the WBS jars cuz I dont want to risk it.




paper towel is breathable enough you should be fine. What are you using for a filter on the WBS jars?




Lid set up is as follows: hole drilled in middle with poly-fill pulled through it, not so tightly, one hole with medical tape over it for inoculation point, lid is upside down, just barely screwed on but firm, then two small paper towel squares fastened by a rubber band on top of all that....sound good?


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"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"    -Gandhi

“I, as a responsible adult human being, will never concede the power to anyone to regulate my choice of what I put into my body, or where I go with my mind. From the skin inwards is my jurisdiction, is it not? I choose what may or may not cross that border. Here I am the customs agent. I am the coastguard. I am the sole legal and spiritual government of this territory, and only the laws I choose to enact within myself are applicable” - Alexander Shulgin

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InvisibleSRHooM
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Re: Need some expert advice.... [Re: DallasP]
    #10861902 - 08/14/09 09:15 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

..:facepalm:

Paper towel filters..

PLZ tell me that the Paper towel's are for dust guards..

Paper towel are not good enough to use as a stand alone filter.
Thats why we use tyvek, polyfill & filter disk's.

If you could use Paper towel's I think people wouldn't waste the time & money making such advance lid designs.

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InvisibleLivioDoubleFang
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Posts: 788
Re: Need some expert advice.... [Re: SRHooM]
    #10862108 - 08/14/09 09:50 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

SRHooM said:
..:facepalm:

Paper towel filters..

PLZ tell me that the Paper towel's are for dust guards..

Paper towel are not good enough to use as a stand alone filter.
Thats why we use tyvek, polyfill & filter disk's.

If you could use Paper towel's I think people wouldn't waste the time & money making such advance lid designs.




Only reason I have paper towel over the jar is b/c there is a small hole where I knocked up the jars and to keep shit from getting through it


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"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"    -Gandhi

“I, as a responsible adult human being, will never concede the power to anyone to regulate my choice of what I put into my body, or where I go with my mind. From the skin inwards is my jurisdiction, is it not? I choose what may or may not cross that border. Here I am the customs agent. I am the coastguard. I am the sole legal and spiritual government of this territory, and only the laws I choose to enact within myself are applicable” - Alexander Shulgin

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InvisibleDallasP
Hostile Monkey


Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 251
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: Need some expert advice.... [Re: LivioDoubleFang]
    #10865719 - 08/15/09 05:22 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Sounds good. I would just take the paper towel off and put a bandaid or another piece of tape or whatever you happen to have over the hole. That way that's one less layer of material that air has to penetrate to provide gas exchange to your little baby. Other than that it's good.

Also, not sure if you've looked into self-healing injection ports yet, but there are various ways to do that, and they provide an easy way to avoid having holes in the lid after inoculation. My new favorite way to do it is with autoclavable syringe filters. There are a  variety of places to order online, just look up "autoclavable syringe filter" and you should find several places to buy them. Probably a better option for you at this point, depending on how serious you think you'll be about growing, is just to go to the hardware store and buy a $5 tube of RTV gasket sealer. Apply a 1mm thick coating on each side of the lid, extending at least 1cm beyond the hole itself, allow to cure, and voila!

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InvisibleCH HELL
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Re: Need some expert advice.... [Re: DallasP]
    #10865851 - 08/15/09 05:49 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Next time inject through the polyfill or injection port.  Injecting through micropore leaves a hole wide open for contams,  if you are injecting through the micropore in a GB then just place another piece of micropore tape over it.
Your best bet is to have one hole stuffed full/tight with polyfill and inject through that.
CH

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