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 Kickle
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 Important questions for yourself? 
#10849834 - 08/12/09 11:03 PM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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I've personally been stuck in this loop of "why would an omnipotent, omnipresent God need anything from me, even something as simple as prayer?"
If I'm a mere mortal with no powers of my own, why would I even be of interest?
What do I have, that God does not? What do I have that God needs?
Or is it simply that I need God, and there is a principle in place which requires equal exchange, i.e. Alchemy
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Littles
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Re: Important questions for yourself? [Re: Kickle]
#10850147 - 08/13/09 12:05 AM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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Who says he needs or wants anything from you?
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 deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Important questions for yourself? [Re: Littles]
#10851004 - 08/13/09 05:34 AM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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I try not to anthropomorphize the Ineffable.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Important questions for yourself? [Re: Kickle]
#10851471 - 08/13/09 08:51 AM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
What do I have, that God does not? What do I have that God needs?
He's like Satan in SP wanting his sweet 16. 
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Important questions for yourself? [Re: Kickle]
#10851651 - 08/13/09 09:53 AM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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Who?
This question dissolves the person & leaves God as the substratum
In the state of Self Realization no questions can arise, as in knowing the Self all else is known
God needs nothing, 'no want' is the greatest bliss
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fazdazzle
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Re: Important questions for yourself? [Re: Kickle]
#10851689 - 08/13/09 10:06 AM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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Do you want to know what important questions *we* have for ourselves, as well? or did you want to talk about one that you have?
Your questions have no use from my perspective. Assuming there is a God (in the common understanding of the word) I don't think it "needs" me. I like the Taoist view that we are basically an outgrowth of the Tao...just like a plant, or rock, or planet. Do planets pray to God?
If I'm a mere mortal with no powers of my own, why would I even be of interest?
God, having created all, would definitely have an interest in us. God's omnipotency and omnipresence kind of negates any sort of logistical problem with having billions of individual interests.
What do I have, that God does not?
Nothing. God, omnipotent and omniscient, would not be surprised by you.
Or is it simply that I need God, and there is a principle in place which requires equal exchange, i.e. Alchemy
Don't you think this kind of demotes God, as in my first explanation of "needing" God? If there is Alchemy between God and humans...it would be instantaneous, full, never needing, etc... omnipotent, omniscient, etc. It WOULD BE God. God would be the action as well as the object(s).
Pragmatically speaking, I think God is a good exercise in attempting to understand concepts which are out of our grasp...whether there is a God or not, it encourages creative thought (or can...I guess history has proven that's nearly never true, though)
My big question is....why are we limited, at all?
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c0sm0nautt
Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 10,303
Loc: The Astral Realm
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Re: Important questions for yourself? [Re: Kickle]
#10851705 - 08/13/09 10:10 AM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
I've personally been stuck in this loop of "why would an omnipotent, omnipresent God need anything from me, even something as simple as prayer?"
If I'm a mere mortal with no powers of my own, why would I even be of interest?
What do I have, that God does not? What do I have that God needs?
Or is it simply that I need God, and there is a principle in place which requires equal exchange, i.e. Alchemy
You are one and the same with "God". Existence is one and the same with "God". It is the separation where we can hung up. Meditate and Contemplate the inherent oneness of yourself and your environment, the oneness with everything. There is on need for questions, although the can be useful under the right circumstances.
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Important questions for yourself? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#10851734 - 08/13/09 10:18 AM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
Kickle said:
What do I have, that God does not? What do I have that God needs?
He's like Satan in SP wanting his sweet 16.
that episode was damn funny!
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Buben
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Re: Important questions for yourself? [Re: Chronic7]
#10851737 - 08/13/09 10:19 AM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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There is something Jesus said that is not widely quoted namely:
Don't collect riches on earth, where they get fucked up, but in heaven, because where your riches are there is your heart.
Now assume God is not and old man on a cloud but "Is everything".
Then what you produce is inevitably added to everything.
Hence collect your riches there.
Assume communication in both direction, that you not only can put things to everything but also receive from it.
Then logically what you receive is first of all what you have put there, as from you safe, hence karma principle.
Hence all the religious teaching about God demanding us to be good and so on, is another way to say, don't put shit into your safe, because you will suffer for it, on judgement day, continuous judgement or punished for your bad karma either this life or next....
Does paying do anything? Well obviously praying you produce something, feelings emotions e.t.c.
As Jesus said again, don't pray i public where everyone can see how godly you are (getting followers admiration, ie riches on earth), but privately where no one can see you (storing your riches in heaven).
Hence God "want you" do do shit for him, because it is an easy way to say to people, do good shit and good shit will come to you...
I thought of all this one hour ago, before logging in to shroomery to check the forum, so this thought is new for me, but if I personally may say so it might be interesting for people that lost their faith in an old man on a cloud.
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My blog with thoughts I get.
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Drugs are paradoxical, you think you can solve all the worlds problems with philosophy, but if you drop a coin you will never fucking find it.
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Kickle
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Re: Important questions for yourself? [Re: fazdazzle]
#10854483 - 08/13/09 05:37 PM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Chronic777 said:
Who?
This question dissolves the person & leaves God as the substratum
In the state of Self Realization no questions can arise, as in knowing the Self all else is known
God needs nothing, 'no want' is the greatest bliss
Then why do I receive answers to my prayers?
Quote:
fazdazzle said:
Do you want to know what important questions *we* have for ourselves, as well? or did you want to talk about one that you have?
I was hoping others would chime in with their own important questions, yeah 
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Kickle
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Re: Important questions for yourself? [Re: fazdazzle]
#10854553 - 08/13/09 05:46 PM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
fazdazzle said:
Your questions have no use from my perspective. Assuming there is a God (in the common understanding of the word) I don't think it "needs" me. I like the Taoist view that we are basically an outgrowth of the Tao...just like a plant, or rock, or planet. Do planets pray to God?
I don't know if planets pray in their own way or not
I can only speak from my own human experience.
My relationship with God is similar to what you describe. I am an outgrowth of life. An outgrowth of life which has the capacity to pray.
Quote:
fazdazzle said:
God, having created all, would definitely have an interest in us. God's omnipotency and omnipresence kind of negates any sort of logistical problem with having billions of individual interests.
It's not logistic problem I have, it's a motivational one. Again, I only have my human experience, but what does life bring to the table in which a creator of such magnitude would need to create it? How does it provide anything new? Anything that was not already known? Seems boring... but again, I'm limited to a human perspective. Maybe it's like watching a rerun of Seinfeld or something 
Quote:
fazdazzle said:
Nothing. God, omnipotent and omniscient, would not be surprised by you.
Right... seems lame.
Quote:
fazdazzle said:
Don't you think this kind of demotes God, as in my first explanation of "needing" God? If there is Alchemy between God and humans...it would be instantaneous, full, never needing, etc... omnipotent, omniscient, etc. It WOULD BE God. God would be the action as well as the object(s).
Pragmatically speaking, I think God is a good exercise in attempting to understand concepts which are out of our grasp...whether there is a God or not, it encourages creative thought (or can...I guess history has proven that's nearly never true, though)
It comes down to this for me: IF God requires nothing from me, why did he create me? Saying that I am intimately entwined with God, to me, is saying that God gives and receives life through me.
I just don't see a one-way street.
Quote:
fazdazzle said:
My big question is....why are we limited, at all?
How are you limited?
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Kickle
Wanderer
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Posts: 17,978
Last seen: 2 days, 15 hours
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Re: Important questions for yourself? [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#10854588 - 08/13/09 05:51 PM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
c0sm0nautt said:
Quote:
Kickle said:
I've personally been stuck in this loop of "why would an omnipotent, omnipresent God need anything from me, even something as simple as prayer?"
If I'm a mere mortal with no powers of my own, why would I even be of interest?
What do I have, that God does not? What do I have that God needs?
Or is it simply that I need God, and there is a principle in place which requires equal exchange, i.e. Alchemy
You are one and the same with "God". Existence is one and the same with "God". It is the separation where we can hung up. Meditate and Contemplate the inherent oneness of yourself and your environment, the oneness with everything. There is on need for questions, although the can be useful under the right circumstances.
Precisely! If me and God are one in the same, what can I possibly offer myself? What can I possibly offer to the environment? Where does my motivation come from?
Meditation in this way seems to breed apathy.
My solution thus far? Question and challenge such a belief, because it truly is breeding apathy in me.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
Edited by Kickle (08/13/09 05:51 PM)
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Kickle
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Re: Important questions for yourself? [Re: Buben]
#10854658 - 08/13/09 06:00 PM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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Cool post Buben.
I'm not sure I agree, for I can not fathom a heaven, but there were some ideas you presented that stuck. Perhaps I'm still too young and naive, but I see the world as place which responds to your intentions. If you have intentions which rely on material goods, you will receive those material goods. That doesn't mean you will receive every material good you've ever wanted, but you will receive material goods if that is your goal. It seems simple... what we want, we achieve. Even if it is only in a general sense, and not specifics. I can not will myself to be a millionaire overnight, but I might make a goal to increase my income, and by taking steps to achieve that, will eventually increase my income.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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c0sm0nautt
Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 10,303
Loc: The Astral Realm
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Re: Important questions for yourself? [Re: Kickle]
#10855213 - 08/13/09 07:26 PM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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Would you say this apathy is borderline depression?
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Kickle
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Re: Important questions for yourself? [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#10858085 - 08/14/09 07:32 AM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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When thought about, yeah. It can bring about strong feelings of "why bother"
When it lies in the background, not really. It hasn't prevented me from enjoying what I enjoy.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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c0sm0nautt
Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 10,303
Loc: The Astral Realm
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Re: Important questions for yourself? [Re: Kickle]
#10858485 - 08/14/09 10:33 AM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'm not sure if you are familiar with the modern philosopher Ken Wilber, but in his book Integral Spirituality, I remember reading that depression usually comes as a precursor for a spiritual leap in development, or transition to a new stage of development. I know that is vague, and I will try and elaborate later when I have my book.
Edited by c0sm0nautt (08/14/09 10:34 AM)
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solstice
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Re: Important questions for yourself? [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#10858795 - 08/14/09 12:06 PM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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The first answers that came to me concerning your OP questions are the sufi answers.
These guys would say that God asks us to pray not because it gives Him anything, or because He needs them prayers for some purpose. He asks us to pray simply to acknowledge His presence and humble ourselves to Him.
Lots of people, even some atheists among them, don't have that much trouble accepting the fact that there might be a superior entity which creates life, but they do have trouble giving something back to Him purely out of love.
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Man woke up in a world he did not understand and that is why he tries to interpret it - Carl Jung
Edited by solstice (08/14/09 12:07 PM)
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Important questions for yourself? [Re: Kickle]
#10858916 - 08/14/09 12:23 PM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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From a Kaballistic perspective, where God is the Creator of universe, humans (not excluding other possible humanoids on other worlds) are co-creators with God. The biblical myths point to this responsibility - a responsibility that I have shirked because I never procreated. In Orthodox Judaism, we are commanded to "be fruitful and multiply." Of course, there weren't 6 billion humans around at earlier periods of history. Kabbalists say that 'gilgul' - transmigration of soul - only happens to those who do not procreate. Procreation is a logical consequence of believing that this world was created "good." Having a Gnostic disposition, I saw this world's natural beauty as something apart from the nightmare that has been the result of human beings on the planet. The world may be good, but humans seem to be the major channel for evil - real evil.
So, again, from a Jewish perspective, humans are not 'fallen' as Augustine made Christendom believe, but we do have an 'evil inclination' as well as a 'good inclination.' The Kabbalists say that something screwed up at the beginning of creation, and God needs human assistance in putting it all right again. It's called 'Tikkun,' or restoration. Orthodox Jews believe that by adhering to all of those 613 commandments, righteousness is achieved and one's part in the restoration is accomplished. Whatever.
I've taken a Gnostic, Buddhist view of life. I'm trying not to create any more karma, good or bad, but better good than bad. I always left a campsite in better shape than when I found it, and that is my philosophy for life. I help people if I can, within my limitations, and do not hurt people. If this helps God, well, good. But is anyone screwed up at creation (unconsciously or purposely), it wasn't me.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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c0sm0nautt
Registered: 05/19/08
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
From a Kaballistic perspective, where God is the Creator of universe, humans (not excluding other possible humanoids on other worlds) are co-creators with God.
Do you think that is referring strictly to creation in the sense of procreation? When I read that line I thought of humans co-creating what we call reality, in that each of us, I believe, creates our own reality. So you can look at it that all of the "world problems" are just macro versions of an internal struggle that is raging inside of man.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Important questions for yourself? [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#10859139 - 08/14/09 01:01 PM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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I do think that co-creating God's people, through whom God can 'incarnate' so-to-speak, is part of the understanding, but I also agree with you that world events are indeed a projection of the microcosmic inner life of humans. I've often thought that the planet would be unimaginably beautiful if there had never been human beings. All we seem to be capable of is poisoning the earth, air and water, and stand on the perpetual possibility of thermonuclear fire too. We rape the Earth, amputate its trees, and with the petroleum from aeons of carboniferous forrests that we vampirize, we poison and kill our own kind with wars and hydrocarbon-based cancers. Hey, my blood type is 'B-Negative' - so I am  .
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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solstice
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Quote:
Hey, my blood type is 'B-Negative' - so I am
 Nice one. Hope you're wrong though.
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Man woke up in a world he did not understand and that is why he tries to interpret it - Carl Jung
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wallae72001
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Re: Important questions for yourself? [Re: Kickle]
#11212009 - 10/08/09 11:17 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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maybe because you are God's child and are being put through series of test, in my opinion you will come out of this post with more mixed feeling that when u asked... my first trip in shrooms i've had i think i had a bad trip, i was triping with one of my friends, i started to have a bad trip so i whent to my room and try to fall sleep so i wouldn't trip bad, but oh no couldn't sleep tried taking sleeping pills, then my friend came to my room and layed by me on the bed, we where just talking then the more we talked the more i tought she was the devil for some reason, my roomate came down and i tought she was part in all this too, that she was the devil, their manipulative ways always having a way in to change your mind with influence.. all u r is part of your enviroment wich things and people influence u!, i even tough the dogs where the devil, for some reason i tought of getting my rifle from my closet and blowing my head to make all this stop and the devil not getting his way with me through persuasion and beauty like eve did to adam! but right after i had that suicidal tough it was like my life flashed in front of my eyes, and if i did commit sucide that it would just start all over again from scratch and i would just keep coming back to this world, no easy way out. from that trip what i got is that maybe i was part of God, maybe I was God everything revolves around u"(its just me in my head i can't read johns or marys oughts what they are thinking)"and that the ends would come in due to my actions, and the devil persuades us with closure and its materialistic ways" we don't want to b alone in this road.... "if someone was there when i was tripping if they would of asked for my car or my motorcycle i would of gave it to them in a heartbeat!" so in this God and us thing i don't even know where to stand,if he made us is for a reason and he wants something from us, or he wouldn't of even bother with us. and by the way i've never tought of suicide before!! in my normal state of mind but shit hope i ain't crazy!!
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