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InvisibleAlkaloids
3,4,5-trimethoxyphenethylamine
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Registered: 11/15/98
Posts: 743
Loc: pubis mons
On the subject of drying
    #1084903 - 11/25/02 04:13 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

  As many of us know appropriate methods for drying mushrooms, especially in our case the psilocybian mushrooms, have been debated quit a bit.  I was just sitting around in lab thinking the other day and it occurred to me that not only is it ok to _quickly_ dry mushroom with heat, but this might provide an advantage for several important reasons.
    My logic behind this is such;  all autocatabolic enzymes are H2O dependent. From this it follows that to minimize the amount of damage these enzymes could do to our fungal friends during the drying/preservation period it would make more sense to dry them at slighter higher temperatures (with low relative humidity) to rapidly deactivate these enzymes via both dehydration and high temperature denaturation. 
  I know that psilocin(e) and psilocybin(e) are not so much heat sensitive as they are oxidation sensitive.  So by reducing the amount of time they are exposed to autocatabolic enzymes, water, and atmospheric oxygen it makes sense that we would be preserving them in the most efficient and cost effective way possible.  This is when one examines heat drying (at no more than ~110 Fahrenheit/ 43.3 C) versus dessicant and freeze drying (a prohibitively expensive way to dry for almost all cultivators).
   
  any one else have thought to chime in?  More discussion is good.  :smile:
peace
    Alkaloids 


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OfflineRaadt
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Re: On the subject of drying [Re: Alkaloids]
    #1084988 - 11/25/02 04:53 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

a friend has a food dehydrator, with the heating element still in tact. He uses this for his psilo friends, and has found no decrease in potency.

that's all i know =)

Silica Gel (kitty litter crystals) works very quickly, with no heat though. Just have to use a lot, for only a little bit of mush. But you can reactivate it in the oven, 350 for 1 hour. And you're back to dry more. I use half the container filled with silica, followed by 1/4 the area for mushrooms, making it about a 2:1 ratio of silica to mush. 24 hours and i'm cracker.


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Raadt

-- The information I provide is only information from readings, growing of gourmet mushrooms, and second hand stories--

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Offlinecanid
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Re: On the subject of drying [Re: Alkaloids]
    #1086175 - 11/25/02 11:15 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

i usualy air dry until the fruit bodies are as dry as the air, then use dessicant, i like the way it makes the house smell... any way, it seems to work just fine for small-medium scale drying.


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Attn PWN hunters: If you should come across a bluing Psilocybe matching P. pellicolusa please smell it.
If you detect a scent reminiscent of Anethole (anise) please preserve a specimen or two for study and please PM me.

Edited by concretefeet (11/25/02 11:16 PM)

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InvisibleBilge
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Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 1,858
Loc: USA
Re: On the subject of drying [Re: Raadt]
    #1087275 - 11/26/02 09:32 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

ditto Raadt. dehydrator set on lowest heat setting (95F) produces great results quickly with no potency issues.


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: On the subject of drying [Re: Bilge]
    #1088155 - 11/26/02 03:45 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Stamets says heat up to 120 is ok in psilocybian mushrooms of the world.

personally I wouldn't go over 110.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.

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OfflineALHOFF177A17
DoWn RU?

Registered: 01/23/02
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Re: On the subject of drying [Re: Alkaloids]
    #1088258 - 11/26/02 04:34 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

As the temperature increases the likelyhood of oxidation increases. I am not one to say how much and you do carry a valid idea. An example for comparison could be used. Gasoline when under compression is explosive because of the tight configuration of HC chains and O2 molicules. This gives rise to a few options when drying. Remove the oxygen by displacment or chemical means, or remove the entire atmosphere so the residual water in the fungus becomes gas. Heat could be applied to the chamer through radiation from a lightbulb to prevent condensation and speed the process.

You say you work in a lab?

Do you have means of determining PPM for solutions of Psilocin and psilocybin?

If so just clone some mushies take 2 from each flush, dry them with and without temp then see how much of a difference there is.
Anyway good post. I like it when people stretch their brains.


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www.DoWnClothing.COM

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OfflineSuntzu
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Re: On the subject of drying [Re: Alkaloids]
    #1088297 - 11/26/02 05:02 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

I think the heat issue is overrated; Possibly for the reasons you described, but just more practically. . .I've never noticed a decrease in potency when using very hot water for tea, or mixing them into simmering Ditty Moore stew [hotter than boiling water].
My thought was that the heat thresholds for psilo degredation were based on isolated/extracted compounds [I don't know this for sure]. In situ, or in the context of mushroom cells, these compounds are bound up in protein complexes or organelles [or the tough cell walls themselves], so that the 'practical' psilo heat threshold is much higher. Here's another experiment to throw into the mix; TRY to degrade dried mushrooms with heat. I bet it's harder than most people think! Degredation will certainly occur over time at a high temperature, but I'd bet the fidge factor is pretty large.

For actual drying, in line with what you said, it DOES seem to be quite important to get the process done as quickly as possible, especially the outer skin. Thus, IMO, the best that most home-folks can do is give them a vigorous fan-dry [good idea, lay the fan on its back, blowing upward, fruits on the grill, then once 'mostly dry but still springy' put them into dessicant. . .sort of like shifting into 2nd gear for drying. Once I tried a warm oven, it worked just fine but the stems were slightly more brown; it was quicker, but I prefered the brilliant white stems that cold-drying seems to produce.

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InvisibleAlkaloids
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Registered: 11/15/98
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Re: On the subject of drying [Re: ALHOFF177A17]
    #1091554 - 11/27/02 04:10 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

  Yes I could probably go ahead and run some analysis on it.  In that case I would just follow Sasha's (Shulgin) guidelines for doing the final cleanup.
    *....-----  sssssttrreeeeeettcchhhh----....*  :smile:
 


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InvisibleAlkaloids
3,4,5-trimethoxyphenethylamine
Male

Registered: 11/15/98
Posts: 743
Loc: pubis mons
Re: On the subject of drying [Re: Suntzu]
    #1091563 - 11/27/02 04:14 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

  Excellent point... I hadn't given as much thought to the protective effect of the cell walls themselves.  Thanks for pointing that out.  :smile: 


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InvisibleGGreatOne234
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Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 8,946
Re: On the subject of drying [Re: Alkaloids]
    #1092104 - 11/27/02 07:54 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Hello Everybody,

I use a f00d dehydrat0r w0rkng at 110degrees F and this makes the mushro0ms cracker-dry within 24 h0urs

Keep shroomin,
GG

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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: On the subject of drying [Re: ALHOFF177A17]
    #1134547 - 12/12/02 05:47 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

I know, off topic, but I found part of the post interesting:
In reply to:

An example for comparison could be used. Gasoline when under compression is explosive because of the tight configuration of HC chains and O2 molicules.




A better example would be vegetable oil. Everyone knows that gasoline is pretty flamable, explosive stuff regardless of compression. Few know that vegetable oil is explosive enough under compression that it can be used as is for fuel in a diesel engine. As most people know, diesel engine's rely on compression more than a gasoline engine, and that compression is enough to ignite and explode plain old vegetable oil. The only modification needed is that the oil must be warm, not cold for this to work.

Just thought it was an interesting thing...


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.

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