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OfflineBruce6000
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Psilocybin Production, 1st & 2nd flushes
    #10846614 - 08/12/09 04:59 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Ok, Here's a question that's been nagging me for a while. This is pretty much all I know about the pharmacology of mushrooms, psilocybin breaks down into psilocin, the active compound responsible for the effects of the trip. Here's something I read, that in the 1st flush of the organism's lifecycle, psilocybin production peaks and psilocin is at its lowest levels, and in the 2nd flush, psilocin production peaks, and psilocybin is at its lowest levels. Pharmalogically speaking, do mushrooms from the 2nd flush differ to those from the 1st flush, in any way? Can anyone confirm this or elaborate please?


--------------------
Nothing can enslave you other than your unguided attention


Edited by Bruce6000 (08/12/09 05:01 PM)


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InvisibleCH HELL
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Re: Psilocybin Production, 1st & 2nd flushes [Re: Bruce6000]
    #10846811 - 08/12/09 05:22 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

You are way off on all points.  Cubes contain Psilocybin and Psilocin,  Psilocin oxidizes much faster/easier than Psilocybin.  With MS the actives will be different from shroom to shroom and flush to flush.
CH


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Re: Psilocybin Production, 1st & 2nd flushes [Re: CH HELL]
    #10846906 - 08/12/09 05:32 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

CH HELL said:
You are way off on all points.  Cubes contain Psilocybin and Psilocin,  Psilocin oxidizes much faster/easier than Psilocybin.  With MS the actives will be different from shroom to shroom and flush to flush.
CH



Psilocin is the most visual-inducing out of the two, right? Is this why when mushrooms are eaten fresh, the visuals are often stronger than the same mushrooms dried?


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Re: Psilocybin Production, 1st & 2nd flushes [Re: Sebastien]
    #10847011 - 08/12/09 05:50 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Sebastien said:
Quote:

CH HELL said:
You are way off on all points.  Cubes contain Psilocybin and Psilocin,  Psilocin oxidizes much faster/easier than Psilocybin.  With MS the actives will be different from shroom to shroom and flush to flush.
CH



Psilocin is the most visual-inducing out of the two, right? Is this why when mushrooms are eaten fresh, the visuals are often stronger than the same mushrooms dried?





Yes cubes contain both psilocybin and psilocin.  Psilocin is more active but cubes only contain a small amount that is why cyan's are way more potent than cubes.  The drying process will destroy psilocin before the psilocybin,  but if dried properly should only lose a small amount.
CH


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Re: Psilocybin Production, 1st & 2nd flushes [Re: Sebastien]
    #10847033 - 08/12/09 05:52 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Our organism breaks down Psilocybin to form Psilocin by dephosphorylation.


--------------------
"To feel today what one felt yesterday isn't to feel - it's to remember today what was felt yesterday, to be today's living corpse of what yesterday was lived and lost." Fernando Pessoa

"When one creates phantoms for oneself, one puts vampires into the world, and one must nourish these children of a voluntary nightmare with one's blood, one's life, one's intelligence, and one's reason, without ever satisfying them." Eliphas Levi

"The joy of life consists in the exercise of one's energies, continual growth, constant change, the enjoyment of every new experience. To stop means simply to die. The eternal mistake of mankind is to set up an attainable ideal." Aleister Crowley

"The Universe is an artistic catharsis." Artifex Infinitum


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Re: Psilocybin Production, 1st & 2nd flushes [Re: AlexP]
    #10847106 - 08/12/09 06:03 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

AlexP said:
Our organism breaks down Psilocybin to form Psilocin by dephosphorylation.





Big words AlexP.  You may be correct I know what dephosphorylation is but it can only happen while the shroom is actually growing,  after you pick a shroom I would love to be able to convert all the psilocybin to psilocin but it doesn't work like that.
CH


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Re: Psilocybin Production, 1st & 2nd flushes [Re: CH HELL]
    #10847122 - 08/12/09 06:05 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

CH HELL said:
Quote:

AlexP said:
Our organism breaks down Psilocybin to form Psilocin by dephosphorylation.





Big words AlexP.  You may be correct I know what dephosphorylation is but it can only happen while the shroom is actually growing,  after you pick a shroom I would love to be able to convert all the psilocybin to psilocin but it doesn't work like that.
CH



Doesn't it naturally occur during digestion? I am nearly positive I read so coming from a TC. I may very well be wrong.


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Re: Psilocybin Production, 1st & 2nd flushes [Re: Sebastien]
    #10847139 - 08/12/09 06:09 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Sebastien said:
Quote:

CH HELL said:
Quote:

AlexP said:
Our organism breaks down Psilocybin to form Psilocin by dephosphorylation.





Big words AlexP.  You may be correct I know what dephosphorylation is but it can only happen while the shroom is actually growing,  after you pick a shroom I would love to be able to convert all the psilocybin to psilocin but it doesn't work like that.
CH



Doesn't it naturally occur during digestion? I am nearly positive I read so coming from a TC. I may very well be wrong.





Please link that for me.


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Re: Psilocybin Production, 1st & 2nd flushes [Re: Sebastien]
    #10847162 - 08/12/09 06:11 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)



--------------------
"To feel today what one felt yesterday isn't to feel - it's to remember today what was felt yesterday, to be today's living corpse of what yesterday was lived and lost." Fernando Pessoa

"When one creates phantoms for oneself, one puts vampires into the world, and one must nourish these children of a voluntary nightmare with one's blood, one's life, one's intelligence, and one's reason, without ever satisfying them." Eliphas Levi

"The joy of life consists in the exercise of one's energies, continual growth, constant change, the enjoyment of every new experience. To stop means simply to die. The eternal mistake of mankind is to set up an attainable ideal." Aleister Crowley

"The Universe is an artistic catharsis." Artifex Infinitum


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Re: Psilocybin Production, 1st & 2nd flushes [Re: AlexP]
    #10847195 - 08/12/09 06:15 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)



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Offlinecyb3rtr0n
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Re: Psilocybin Production, 1st & 2nd flushes [Re: Bruce6000]
    #10847236 - 08/12/09 06:22 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

OP.

you might find this article/study helpful..

VARIATION OF PSILOCYBIN AND PSILOCIN LEVELS WITH
REPEATED FLUSHES (HARVESTS) OF MATURE SPOROCARPS
OF PSILOCYBE CUBENSIS (EARLE) SINGER
By: JEREMY BIGWOOD and MICHAEL W. BEUG
http://archives.mycotopia.net/discus/messages/5/levels_and_flushes-141925.pdf

Quote:

Summary
Analysis of Psilocybe cubensis (Earle) Singer grown in controlled culture
showed that the level of psilocin was generally zero in the first (or sometimes
even the second) fruiting of the mushroom from a given culture and that the
level reached a maximum by the fourth flush. The level of psilocybin, which
was nearly always at least twice the level of psilocin, showed no upward or
downward trend as fruiting progressed, but was variable over a factor of four.
Samples obtained from outside sources had psilocybin levels varying by over
a factor of ten from one collection to the next.




Quote:

Conclusions
We found that the level of psilocybin and psilocin varies by over a
factor of four among various cultures of Psilocybe cubensis grown under
rigidly controlled conditions, while specimens from outside sources varied
tenfold. It is clear that entheogenic (Ruck et al., 1979) and recreational users
of this species have no way of predicting the amount of psilocybin and psilotin
they are ingesting with a given dry weight of the mushroom. It thus
seems likely that variations in the subjective experience will not only come
from the effects of set and setting but will also stem in very real measure
from large dosage differences.




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Offlineelectrics
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Re: Psilocybin Production, 1st & 2nd flushes [Re: cyb3rtr0n]
    #10847288 - 08/12/09 06:32 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

That supports what I've read that no psilocin is produced in the first flush only psilocybin which in later flushes psilocin is only active in the fresh mushroom oxidizes back into psilocybin during drying only to have our bodies turn it back into psilocin after ingesting...I could be way wrong it's been some time since these issues were of interest to me........e


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Re: Psilocybin Production, 1st & 2nd flushes [Re: AlexP]
    #10847300 - 08/12/09 06:34 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

AlexP said:
http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_faq.shtml





:shrug: It doesn't say any thing about dephosphorylation after picking,  unless they think that MAOI's remove the phosphorous cell from psilocybin.
Any way they are two separate compounds only different by one cell,  if you came up with some thing to remove this cell and keep it stable then you will be on to some thing.
CH


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OfflineBruce6000
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Re: Psilocybin Production, 1st & 2nd flushes [Re: CH HELL]
    #10847503 - 08/12/09 07:05 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks for elaborating. My post was based on something that I had read and didn't know if there was any truth to it. Either way, thanks for clarifying.


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OfflineBruce6000
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Re: Psilocybin Production, 1st & 2nd flushes [Re: Sebastien]
    #10847527 - 08/12/09 07:09 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Sebastien said:
Quote:

CH HELL said:
Quote:

AlexP said:
Our organism breaks down Psilocybin to form Psilocin by dephosphorylation.





Big words AlexP.  You may be correct I know what dephosphorylation is but it can only happen while the shroom is actually growing,  after you pick a shroom I would love to be able to convert all the psilocybin to psilocin but it doesn't work like that.
CH



Doesn't it naturally occur during digestion? I am nearly positive I read so coming from a TC. I may very well be wrong.




BTW- I've read the same thing, that digestion removes the phosphorous atoms from psilocybin turning it into psilocin.


--------------------
Nothing can enslave you other than your unguided attention


Edited by Bruce6000 (08/12/09 07:09 PM)


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Re: Psilocybin Production, 1st & 2nd flushes [Re: Bruce6000]
    #10847574 - 08/12/09 07:15 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Bruce6000 said:
Quote:

Sebastien said:
Quote:

CH HELL said:
Quote:

AlexP said:
Our organism breaks down Psilocybin to form Psilocin by dephosphorylation.





Big words AlexP.  You may be correct I know what dephosphorylation is but it can only happen while the shroom is actually growing,  after you pick a shroom I would love to be able to convert all the psilocybin to psilocin but it doesn't work like that.
CH



Doesn't it naturally occur during digestion? I am nearly positive I read so coming from a TC. I may very well be wrong.




BTW- I've read the same thing, that digestion removes the phosphorous atoms from psilocybin turning it into psilocin.




Please I need to read that.  I don't think it is possible,  if it was then psilocybin would be just as potent as psilocin.  I just want a link,  please.
CH


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Re: Psilocybin Production, 1st & 2nd flushes [Re: CH HELL]
    #10847583 - 08/12/09 07:16 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

CH HELL said:
Quote:

AlexP said:
http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_faq.shtml





:shrug: It doesn't say any thing about dephosphorylation after picking,  unless they think that MAOI's remove the phosphorous cell from psilocybin.
Any way they are two separate compounds only different by one cell,  if you came up with some thing to remove this cell and keep it stable then you will be on to some thing.
CH




I was just saying what I read. They say that after ingesting the mushrooms, psilocybin looses its phosphorus cell and then becomes psilocin. My answer was to let Sebastien know what happens to psilocybin when it enters our organism as he said psilocin is the molecule which produces more visuals of the two.

Yes, you'd have to make it stable if you were to convert psilocybin to psilocin as psilocin breaks up so much easier.


--------------------
"To feel today what one felt yesterday isn't to feel - it's to remember today what was felt yesterday, to be today's living corpse of what yesterday was lived and lost." Fernando Pessoa

"When one creates phantoms for oneself, one puts vampires into the world, and one must nourish these children of a voluntary nightmare with one's blood, one's life, one's intelligence, and one's reason, without ever satisfying them." Eliphas Levi

"The joy of life consists in the exercise of one's energies, continual growth, constant change, the enjoyment of every new experience. To stop means simply to die. The eternal mistake of mankind is to set up an attainable ideal." Aleister Crowley

"The Universe is an artistic catharsis." Artifex Infinitum


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InvisibleAlexP
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Re: Psilocybin Production, 1st & 2nd flushes [Re: AlexP]
    #10847604 - 08/12/09 07:19 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

CH Hell, if you look under the psilocybin picture, on the link I posted you'll find it. :smile:


--------------------
"To feel today what one felt yesterday isn't to feel - it's to remember today what was felt yesterday, to be today's living corpse of what yesterday was lived and lost." Fernando Pessoa

"When one creates phantoms for oneself, one puts vampires into the world, and one must nourish these children of a voluntary nightmare with one's blood, one's life, one's intelligence, and one's reason, without ever satisfying them." Eliphas Levi

"The joy of life consists in the exercise of one's energies, continual growth, constant change, the enjoyment of every new experience. To stop means simply to die. The eternal mistake of mankind is to set up an attainable ideal." Aleister Crowley

"The Universe is an artistic catharsis." Artifex Infinitum


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Re: Psilocybin Production, 1st & 2nd flushes [Re: AlexP]
    #10847653 - 08/12/09 07:26 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

AlexP said:
CH Hell, if you look under the psilocybin picture, on the link I posted you'll find it. :smile:





Thanks Alex,  I guess I missed that.  It still doesn't make any rational sense.  Psilocin is 1.4 x stronger but if psilocybin breaks down during digestion in to psilocin then they should be the same,  right?


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Re: Psilocybin Production, 1st & 2nd flushes [Re: CH HELL]
    #10847684 - 08/12/09 07:30 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

By weight. Psilocin is 1.4 times stronger than psilocybin by weight. The psilocin molecule is as strong as the psilocybin's but weighs less.

Edit:

Quote:

Erowid: This is the case with psilocin, because each molecule of psilocin is lighter yet has the same effect as each molecule of psilocybin, it is said to be more potent.





Edited by AlexP (08/12/09 07:33 PM)


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