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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Organic Food [Re: PoC]
    #10828000 - 08/09/09 02:16 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I didn't read your entire post, just skimming though, but this has caught my attention:

Quote:

Cows don't need antibiotics and hormones to survive - it's only because we pen them up so close and in such squalid conditions that disease spreads.




Couldn't the same thing be said about humans?
People don't need antibiotics until they... need them, until they get a bacteria that gets killed with antibiotics. Of course, both people and cows, will take antibiotics when the situation will require.


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:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisiblePoC
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Re: Organic Food [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10828029 - 08/09/09 02:21 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

...and your point is?  We're not eating humans and the health of human living situations isn't really the topic here.  It's also not as if every one of us is taking in massive amounts of antibiotics because there's thirty people living in every house who are all shitting everywhere.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Organic Food [Re: PoC]
    #10828418 - 08/09/09 03:43 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

My point it that it doesn't make sense to say that cows don't need antibiotics, because it is like saying that humans don't need them.
I was aware of the fact that you weren't talking about eating humans, but I can't see how this would make my point invalid. However, I did think that part of the discussion was the health of humans, and how eating can affect their health. In this light, I was wondering why you would say that cows don't need antibiotics, and that it is only because of how close they are to each other and the unsanitary conditions. Would you prefer if cows weren't given antibiotics?
Note that I am not debating the rest of your post, and actually I think you're right and I think it's stupid to raise cows in such conditions, but at the same time I don't think it's necessary to look for false arguments, like saying that cows don't need antibiotics.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisiblePoC
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Re: Organic Food [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10829940 - 08/09/09 08:51 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Would you contend that the close quarters and unsanitary conditions of cows isn't the main reason for the need for antibiotics?  I'm saying that for humans, while we use antibiotics, it is the exception, not the rule that we need them.  In conventional farming, this is certainly not the case because under such disgusting conditions - including improper diet, lack of exercise, and unsatisfactory environment - an unreasonable amount of cows suffer from infections and other sickly ailments.  Not only are they exposed to unnecessary amounts of antibiotics - something that mostly could be prevented by a more proper environment - but they are generally unhealthy...then we treat them with antibiotics to keep them alive and then eat them.

I stick by my initial statement that cows don't need antibiotics to survive.  Farmers, after all, herded cattle for centuries before antibiotics.  In this more natural farming method, cows indeed ate grass and had a proper environment and some still died from infection and illness.  Under these conditions I don't think I would even be opposed to the proper application of antibiotics to save a few struggling cows.  It's the broad and unthoughtful application of antibiotics and the fact that antibiotics have become requisite to the conventional system of farming that makes it such an issue to me.


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OfflineHypercube
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Re: Organic Food [Re: PoC]
    #10831816 - 08/10/09 06:38 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Re: GMOs
I would like to see some refereed literature that proves that GMOs are in the least bit dangerous or unhealthy.  The fact remains that modern methods of genetic engineering are safer and more predictable than any other form of plant breeding in the past.

Re: Cow conditions
I don't doubt that some livestock is kept in squalid conditions.  But I would argue that that is the fault of the idiot farmer that doesn't realize that keeping better conditions for his cows will save him money.  Any farmer who knows his shit is gonna keep a decently clean operation.  I have also yet to see any cow on a farm that doesn't eat grass. :smirk:


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InvisibleMisterMuscaria
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Re: Organic Food [Re: Chespirito]
    #10831868 - 08/10/09 07:14 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Sounds like Monsanto propaganda.


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OfflineAndre Nickatina
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Re: Organic Food [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10833211 - 08/10/09 01:53 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
because it is like saying that humans don't need them.






Humans don't need antibiotics, neither do wild animals.


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OfflineHypercube
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Re: Organic Food [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10833751 - 08/10/09 03:30 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Andre Nickatina said:

Humans don't need antibiotics, neither do wild animals.




Nobody NEEDS organic food either.  So what's your point?

Just because SOME individuals would be fine without antibiotics their entire lives, does not give just cause for not using those compounds to save the lives of others, or to improve livestock survival rates.

Organic ideology hinges on the precept that whatever technology we come up with is inherently bad.  However, the value of a technology largely lies in how it is used.  If I were to spray pesticides at a rate 10000 times the recommended level on a field, there may be deleterious consequences, but that is not a good argument against the use of such a chemical.

When it comes down to it, in an idealized chemical-free and organic playground where there are 2 cows per ha of pasture and science is barred from improving upon agriculture, there are few people who could afford to live.  If you really want to see such a world come about, I challenge you to accept the consequences.


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InvisiblePoC
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Re: Organic Food [Re: Hypercube]
    #10835000 - 08/10/09 06:30 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Hypercube said:
Re: GMOs
I would like to see some refereed literature that proves that GMOs are in the least bit dangerous or unhealthy.  The fact remains that modern methods of genetic engineering are safer and more predictable than any other form of plant breeding in the past.

Re: Cow conditions
I don't doubt that some livestock is kept in squalid conditions.  But I would argue that that is the fault of the idiot farmer that doesn't realize that keeping better conditions for his cows will save him money.  Any farmer who knows his shit is gonna keep a decently clean operation.  I have also yet to see any cow on a farm that doesn't eat grass. :smirk:




The creation of GMOs is by no means a precise science based upon firm understanding of genetics.  We've learned that we can splice genetics from some organisms into others, but it's not as if there's some guru out there that knows how genes truly work.  We've barely been able to map out the human genome so far, hitting the tip of the iceberg of genetic manipulation and translation.  GMOs are just a lot of trial and error, and to let those frankenstein genetics into the wild without proper understanding is just plain stupid.  Not only is contamination of wild and landrace populations with genetically modified genes a tragedy, but companies have been allowed to patent those genes and can unjustly take claim to any plants with their genetics inside of them.  If you want to talk about antibiotics, companies regularly insert antibiotics into the genes of GMO crops so they can identify the mature plant cells as originating from their company.  The effects of GMOs is also very difficult to trace since companies refuse to allow labelling of genetically modified foods.  It's not just a matter of the produce isle and organic vs conventional - GMO crops are used in a large chunk of popular packaged goods such as chips, taco shells, frozen foods, and canned foods.  The various processed forms of food such as high fructose corn syrup, dextrose, and a lot of those bizarre words on ingredients lists also are likely to be from GMO crops.

I suppose you've never seen any of the factory farms from which a large portion of American meat comes from.  I am most definitely talking about these large-scale operations that keep groceries and fast food chains stocked with cheap meat.

No one's saying there needs to be 2 cows per hectare of pasture or that science somehow is in conflict with organic methods.  You also imply that people couldn't afford to live without meat, which is simply a fallacy.  Not only can people live without meat, but the economic and environmental costs of vegetarian (even pseudo-vegetarian) diets are less than that of carnivorous diets.  We live in a country with plenty of food, but if we didn't have to feed all of our cows, chickens, and pigs exorbitant amounts of food, there would definitely be a lot more to go around and probably for cheaper.  It really comes down to people not knowing what is happening with their food and/or wanting to turn a blind eye to it.  Farmers are putting animals in concentration camp-style quarters, using antibiotics as standard practice, feeding them with government-subsidized corn that is unnatural for them to eat (and often genetically modified), and that's how we get a quarter pound of beef for less than a dollar.

I am not a vegetarian, though I tend to not eat meat too often.  All I'm saying is that we need to have respect for these animals, our nature, and ourselves.  Surely, a quarter pound of animal flesh is worth more than a buck.


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OfflineAndre Nickatina
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Re: Organic Food [Re: Hypercube]
    #10844227 - 08/12/09 06:41 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Hypercube said:
Quote:

Andre Nickatina said:

Humans don't need antibiotics, neither do wild animals.




Nobody NEEDS organic food either.  So what's your point?






Yes they do, organic produce is an absolute necessity. I'm sorry but maybe you like chemical laden nutrient deficient food but I'll stick to what mother earth intended for me to eat. The government doesn't know what all these pesticides are gonna do to people long term, maybe you don't care but my life is precious and I treat my body with utmost respect.

By the way no one needs antibiotics(or any pill for that matter), even people who are sick. The only thing people truly need is a good diet


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InvisibleChespirito
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Re: Organic Food [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10845857 - 08/12/09 01:15 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Andre Nickatina said:
I'm sorry but maybe you like chemical laden nutrient deficient food but I'll stick to what mother earth intended for me to eat.



I guess you didn't read the whole point of this post. Organic food has no more nutrients than non-organic


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InvisiblePoC
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Re: Organic Food [Re: Chespirito]
    #10846109 - 08/12/09 01:49 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Chespirito said:
"Although the researchers say that the differences between organic and non-organic food are not 'important', due to the relatively few studies, they report in their analysis that there are higher levels of beneficial nutrients in organic compared to non-organic foods.

"Without large-scale, longitudinal research it is difficult to come to far-reaching clear conclusions on this, which was acknowledged by the authors of the FSA review.

"Also, there is not sufficient research on the long-term effects of pesticides on human health," he added.




That, to me, means the answer you just posted isn't as clear as you make it sound.  If you go look at some research on the subject, most of it seems to indicate that we need further research, but that organically grown foods tend to have slightly higher amounts of nutrients and that animals fed organic foods tend to be healthier.

I'll cite an abstract from this article:
International Journal of Food Sciences & Nutrition; Sep2003, Vol. 54 Issue 5, p357, 15p

Quote:

Apparently, one of the primary reasons for purchasing organic food is the perception that it is more nutritious than conventional food. Given the increasing interest towards organic food products, it is imperative to review the existing literature concerning the nutritional value of the produce, and to determine to what extent are consumer expectations met. There are only few well-controlled studies that are capable of making a valid comparison and, therefore, compilation of the results is difficult and generalisation of the conclusions should be made with caution. In spite of these limitations, however, some differences can be identified. Although there is little evidence that organic and conventional foods differ in respect to the concentrations of the various micronutrients (vitamins, minerals and trace elements), there seems to be a slight trend towards higher ascorbic acid content in organically grown leafy vegetables and potatoes. There is also a trend towards lower protein concentration but of higher quality in some organic vegetables and cereal crops. With respect to the rest of the nutrients and the other food groups, existing evidence is inadequate to allow for valid conclusions. Finally, animal feeding experiments indicate that animal health and reproductive performance are slightly improved when they are organically fed. A similar finding has not yet been identified in humans. Several important directions can be highlighted for future research; it seems, however, that despite any differences, a well-balanced diet can equally improve health regardless of its organic or conventional origin.




The article was written in 2003, but there seem to have been few if any real advancements in this debate since.


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