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OfflineScavengerType
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Fyodor Mikhaylovich Dostoyevsky wrote a story on his prison cell wall
    #10825905 - 08/09/09 03:08 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

in 1849 Dostoyevsky wrote on his prison wall the following story of the priest and the devil,
Devil: hello you little fat father... What made you lie so to these poor missled people. What tortures of hell did you depict? Don't you already know they suffer the tortures of hell in their daily lives? Don't you know that you qand the authorities of the state are my representatives on earth? It is you that make them suffer the pains of hell with which you threaten them. Don't you know this? Well then... Come with me.

The devil lifted the priest by the collar and carried him to an iron foundry. He saw the workmen there, hurrying too and fro in the scotching heat. Verry soon the thick heavy air and the heat overwhelm the priest.

with tears in his eyes he pleads: let me go! Let me leave this hell!
devil: Oh my dear friend I must show you many more places.

The devil grabs him and drags him off to a farm
There he sees many people thrashing grain, the dust and heat are insufferable.
The overseer carries a whip and unmercifully beats anyone who falls to the ground, overcome by hard toil or hunger.

Next the priest is taken to the huts where these workers live with their families. Dirty coal-y smelly ill smelling holes. The devil Grins, He points out the poverty and hardshgip which are at home here: Well isn't this enough?
He asks and it seems that even he seems to pity the people.
The pious servant cannot take it with uplifted hands he begs: Let me go away from here. Yes. Yes This is hell on earth.
Devil: Well you see then and you still promise them another hell. You torment them, torture them to death mentally when they are already all but dead physically. Come on, I will show you one more hell... one more... the very worst.

He took him to a prisson and showed him a doengon with it's foyul air and the many human forms robbed of all health and energy lying on the floor, covered with vermin that were devouring their poor naked imaciated bodies.
Devil: Take off your silken clothes. Put on your ankle chains, such that these unfortunates wear. Lye down on the cold, filthy floor and then talk to them about a hell that still awaits them.
Priest: No. No. I cannot think of anything more dreadful than this. I entreat you let me go away from here. Yes, this is hell there can be no worse hell than this.
Devil: Did you not know it? Did you not know that these men and women who you are frightening with the picture of a hell hereafter. Did you not know that they are already in hell right here before they die?




What are your opinions?
I was thinking of writing an updated version.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club


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OfflineBooby
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Re: Fyodor Mikhaylovich Dostoyevsky wrote a story on his prison cell wall [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10826378 - 08/09/09 07:24 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Acclimation to the hell of industry and prison is a cold hard fact.

Change is an unburdensome stress to such wretches.


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Fyodor Mikhaylovich Dostoyevsky wrote a story on his prison cell wall [Re: Booby]
    #10832890 - 08/10/09 02:39 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

no more opinions on the piece?


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Fyodor Mikhaylovich Dostoyevsky wrote a story on his prison cell wall [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10833024 - 08/10/09 03:14 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

This is the dark perspective, no less or more valid than the light.

The priest, just as much as he is telling them that hell awaits them after the hell on Earth, is telling them that there is paradise awaiting them. Hope is a beautiful thing for those who find themselves in Hell.


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Fyodor Mikhaylovich Dostoyevsky wrote a story on his prison cell wall [Re: Kickle]
    #10833063 - 08/10/09 03:25 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Heaven and hell are such bullshit concepts... it all stems from this reality why are some vindacated to think that there is the land of the bad we see here already or the converse as heaven. People should think those concepts through some more...

Dostovesky was brilliant


--------------------
Jesus loves you.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Fyodor Mikhaylovich Dostoyevsky wrote a story on his prison cell wall [Re: andrewss]
    #10833111 - 08/10/09 03:36 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I'm confused as to why you think it's bullshit when someone says "I'm in hell"
Particularly when, as Dostovesky has shown, there are situations for people which do seem 'hellish.'

What word do you propose for such situations, if not hell on Earth?


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Fyodor Mikhaylovich Dostoyevsky wrote a story on his prison cell wall [Re: Kickle]
    #10833134 - 08/10/09 03:39 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I'm confused as to why you think it's bullshit when someone says "I'm in hell"
Particularly when, as Dostovesky has shown, there are situations for people which do seem 'hellish.'

What word do you propose for such situations, if not hell on Earth?




??? Perhaps I was misunderstood, but I think the concepts of heaven and hell as far as their legitamacy to be real seems messed up. Real in the sense that they are other worlds, other realities beyond the one we all know now.

Eternal only good seems weird just as much as eternal only bad does. Does not the good and bad need each other to be realized time and time again, so living in an eternal utopia would be numb as well as an eternal torture... eventually? Or is it not already present in the world we already know of. The only change could be amnesia, no?


--------------------
Jesus loves you.


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Re: Fyodor Mikhaylovich Dostoyevsky wrote a story on his prison cell wall [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10833167 - 08/10/09 03:45 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
in 1849 Dostoyevsky wrote on his prison wall the following story of the priest and the devil,
Devil: hello you little fat father... What made you lie so to these poor missled people. What tortures of hell did you depict? Don't you already know they suffer the tortures of hell in their daily lives? Don't you know that you qand the authorities of the state are my representatives on earth? It is you that make them suffer the pains of hell with which you threaten them. Don't you know this? Well then... Come with me.

The devil lifted the priest by the collar and carried him to an iron foundry. He saw the workmen there, hurrying too and fro in the scotching heat. Verry soon the thick heavy air and the heat overwhelm the priest.

with tears in his eyes he pleads: let me go! Let me leave this hell!
devil: Oh my dear friend I must show you many more places.

The devil grabs him and drags him off to a farm
There he sees many people thrashing grain, the dust and heat are insufferable.
The overseer carries a whip and unmercifully beats anyone who falls to the ground, overcome by hard toil or hunger.

Next the priest is taken to the huts where these workers live with their families. Dirty coal-y smelly ill smelling holes. The devil Grins, He points out the poverty and hardshgip which are at home here: Well isn't this enough?
He asks and it seems that even he seems to pity the people.
The pious servant cannot take it with uplifted hands he begs: Let me go away from here. Yes. Yes This is hell on earth.
Devil: Well you see then and you still promise them another hell. You torment them, torture them to death mentally when they are already all but dead physically. Come on, I will show you one more hell... one more... the very worst.

He took him to a prisson and showed him a doengon with it's foyul air and the many human forms robbed of all health and energy lying on the floor, covered with vermin that were devouring their poor naked imaciated bodies.
Devil: Take off your silken clothes. Put on your ankle chains, such that these unfortunates wear. Lye down on the cold, filthy floor and then talk to them about a hell that still awaits them.
Priest: No. No. I cannot think of anything more dreadful than this. I entreat you let me go away from here. Yes, this is hell there can be no worse hell than this.
Devil: Did you not know it? Did you not know that these men and women who you are frightening with the picture of a hell hereafter. Did you not know that they are already in hell right here before they die?




What are your opinions?
I was thinking of writing an updated version.





I think when people are ignorant they get treated as such.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Fyodor Mikhaylovich Dostoyevsky wrote a story on his prison cell wall [Re: andrewss]
    #10833184 - 08/10/09 03:48 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I was unaware of any definition of heaven or hell that was any more 'real' than any other definition, so I suppose that is indeed where this confusion is coming from. To me, definitions are not 'real' in the sense I see you describing them -- physically.

So a concept of heaven and hell to me can never be bullshit any more than a definition can be bullshit :shrug:

Heaven and hell seem very real to me, but not according to every definition.

Quote:

Eternal only good seems weird just as much as eternal only bad does.




Neither one claims to exist without the other as far as I know. They do both claim to be eternal, but neither claims to exist without its opposite. If you are in hell, heaven does not disappear. If you are in heaven, hell does not disappear.


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Fyodor Mikhaylovich Dostoyevsky wrote a story on his prison cell wall [Re: Kickle]
    #10833331 - 08/10/09 04:15 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Alright... I mean that positing a reality that is actual like this one except you are experiencing what we call pain/torture/etc from HERE and not the inverse of them, ever, seems absurd and totally illogical, same argument applies for heave. To me heaven and hell need each other, oh and guess what, thats reality as we know it. No need to fixate on that relationship and think that there are worlds out there that are exclusive one or the other. If there is hell we are already in it, if there is heaven we are already in it. The only change could be NO experience, or perhaps a reincarnation with a fate that is more painful or less painful than previous...

Eh?


--------------------
Jesus loves you.


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Re: Fyodor Mikhaylovich Dostoyevsky wrote a story on his prison cell wall [Re: andrewss]
    #10833420 - 08/10/09 04:32 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

When you are in the darkest pits of hell, it is easy to desire the hope of heaven. Even to the point of fixation. That fixation can come in any number of forms, including an imaginary plane of existence. To claim that fixation is negative in such cases, is to return to the pits of hell. Certainly, at some point, preferably when you are no longer in hell, you should discard such a fixation as it no longer serves its purpose of being the spot of light in the darkness. 

If you discard concepts of heaven and hell all together, I'd wager you're going to find a comparable guidepost which serves the same function for the dark periods. And if you don't, well, we all know how to get to the exit.

I personally like the more accepting approach to things. Accept the good and the bad in equal measure. This does not mean that you are not aware of their presence and thusly not experiencing them, but that you accept that they both do exist eternally. I find a unifying force in Life for this purpose. Life contains both, as the circle that encapsulates the yin and the yang.

I do not know what lies in wait for me after I find my own life ending. However, I do know that when "my" life ends, life itself does not. I'm grateful for this knowledge. :sun:


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: Fyodor Mikhaylovich Dostoyevsky wrote a story on his prison cell wall [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10833464 - 08/10/09 04:40 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I'm actually working through the Brother's Karamazov right now, its interesting to see all of you guys on the same wavelength.

Consider his basic grounds for this expression.

How illustrative that he was in prison; it is no surprise that there is a particularly bitter taste in his mouth at this moment. But we can step back even further than this. Taking a look at some of his other works, he immediately prioritizes a criticism of both the church and the dawning revolution, which history has unfortunately proven as for good reason. But he was also plainly idealistic of the humanity that these ideologies so greatly affected (for better or for worse), and so in his subsequently compounded problem, he intimated the opposite pulls of these opposing forces in the characters of his fiction. In general he seems to have had quite an empathic mind, which this passage demonstrates.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


Edited by daytripper23 (08/10/09 09:27 PM)


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Re: Fyodor Mikhaylovich Dostoyevsky wrote a story on his prison cell wall [Re: andrewss]
    #10833510 - 08/10/09 04:47 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

andrewss said:
Alright... I mean that positing a reality that is actual like this one except you are experiencing what we call pain/torture/etc from HERE and not the inverse of them, ever, seems absurd and totally illogical, same argument applies for heave. To me heaven and hell need each other, oh and guess what, thats reality as we know it. No need to fixate on that relationship and think that there are worlds out there that are exclusive one or the other. If there is hell we are already in it, if there is heaven we are already in it. The only change could be NO experience, or perhaps a reincarnation with a fate that is more painful or less painful than previous...

Eh?




Perhaps the problem is we can only seem to posit our laws in reflection/projection of good character. To paraphrase Voltaire, perhaps the problem is we have to invent God.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Fyodor Mikhaylovich Dostoyevsky wrote a story on his prison cell wall [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13379184 - 10/24/10 07:26 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

bump
thinking of doing a modern version.
the sequence being:
e-recycling land tomb
sweatshop
mountaintop removal coal or something


I'm wondering of anyone has better suggestions for modern topical situations.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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