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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Mushrooms & Energy
    #1080883 - 11/24/02 03:32 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

What I would like to know is what molecule do fungi use as a source of energy? Plants and animals use ATP to perform cellular funtions. Plants use ATP in the production of glucose, which is their main source and store of energy. Animals use that glucose after ingestion and digestion to produce ATP to carry out virtually all cellular functions via anaerobic or aerobic cellular respiration. As matts and I discussed a few days ago, the enzymatic digestion of substrate by hyphae is somewhat similar to the digestion of food by humans, however what is a mystery to me is the process of that digestion, and the conversion of a sacharidic substrate into cellular engergy. Can anybody shine any light on the subject for me?


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"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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OfflineJackal
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Re: Mushrooms & Energy [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1081234 - 11/24/02 07:43 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Fungi are eukaryotes, and nearly all are multi-cellular. The cytoplasm contains all the usual eukaryotic organelles including mitochondria, so I would imagine that ATP is used as the energy source for fungi.
Fungi are also heteretrophs. In contrast to animals, fungi acquire their nutrients by absorption. In this mode of nutrition, small organic molecules are absorbed from the surrounding medium. A fungus digests food outside its body by secreting powerful hydrolytic enzymes into the food. The enzymes decompose complex molecules to the simpler compounds that the fungus can absorb and use. It is this mode of nutrition which classifies fungi as mutualistic symbionts, feeding off non-living organic material - fallen logs, corpses, animal waste etc.
Most fungal hyphae are divided into cells by septa. The septa generally have pores large enough to allow ribosomes, mitochondria, and even nuclei to flow from cell to cell. The filamentous structure of the mycelium provides an extensive surface area that suits the absorptive nutrion of fungi: 10cc of rich organic substrate can contain as much as 1km of hyphae. Such fast growth is possible because proteins and other materials sythesized by the entire mycelium are channeled by cytoplasmic streaming to the tips of the extending hyphae. The fungus concentrates its energy and resources on adding length rather than girth.

Hope this helps

Jackal


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OfflinePsiloSteve
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Re: Mushrooms & Energy [Re: Jackal]
    #1081254 - 11/24/02 08:39 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Do any of you guys know where the psilocybin comes in? And what it does for the mushroom?


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OfflineTeon
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Re: Mushrooms & Energy [Re: PsiloSteve]
    #1081367 - 11/24/02 11:29 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

As to the utilization of ATP by cubensis mushrooms, I'm not sure about that one, it is certianly possible, but not a given. Now I can say that it has been found that the hormone which causes fruiting in fungus has been identified as cAMP, cyclic Adenosine monophosphate.

As far the role that psilocybin plays in the life cycle of the mushroom. No one really knows, it's all hypothetical. Personally I like ot think that the mushroom produced psilocybin in order to prompt the formation of a symbiotic relation with anything that has a neural system caable of assimilating the molecule. With psylocybin being very similar to seretonin it can just slide right into the 5-HT receptor, and bingo, your in magic land.


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Anonymous

Re: Mushrooms & Energy [Re: Teon]
    #1082566 - 11/24/02 10:12 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

"The glycolytic pathways in fungi, AS IN ALL CELLS, serve to furnish energy, precursors for synthesis of a variety of compounds, and reducing power in the form of NADH and NADPH necessary for converting these precursors to appropriate intermidiates or end products. The details of the enzymology of these pathways are WELL DOCUMENTED, and the available evidence indicates that in fungi they are essentially the same as in other organisms.  Reviews of glycolosis in fungi have been published by Blumenthal(1965) and Cochrane(1976)."
Fungal Nutrition and Physiology, Garraway and Evans,1984 and 1991. :smirk: 


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Mushrooms & Energy [Re: ]
    #1082756 - 11/24/02 11:29 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

So, what would interest me ....how much oxygen does a fungus need to digest 1 kg of straw for instance, compared to complete oxidation(combustion)?


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: Mushrooms & Energy [Re: ]
    #1083184 - 11/25/02 01:19 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

"The glycolytic pathways in fungi, AS IN ALL CELLS, serve to furnish energy, precursors for synthesis of a variety of compounds, and reducing power in the form of NADH and NADPH necessary for converting these precursors to appropriate intermidiates or end products. "

Hmm...essentially it looks like this is saying that fungi perform cellular respiration the same way that animals do. However the interesting part is the presence of the electron shuttle molecules, NADH and NADPH. NADH is prodcuced by animals durring glycolysis and the Krebs cycle. NADPH however is not. NADPH as far as I know, is only associated with the production of energy in plants durring photosynthesis, occuring durring the light reactions in the grana where it is oxidized, and the Calvin cycle where it is reduced. Very interesting, and even more confusing.  :smirk:

To the comment about the presence of psilocybin in mushrooms... I believe it may be more of a protectionary measure, similar to a poison. Animal comes along and eats a few mushrooms which results in an unpleasent experience. They cause vomiting in humans, and I wouldn't be suprised if other species of animals experienced the same. Animal doesn't eat any more of those mushrooms in the future. 


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"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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Anonymous

Re: Mushrooms & Energy [Re: Anno]
    #1083312 - 11/25/02 02:12 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

70 % of the straw will be converted to CO2 and Water. Approx. 50 percent CO2 and 20% water. This occurs in the prescence of Oxygen.
MANY FACTORS WILL ULTIMATELY DETERMINE THE RATE OF GROWTH AND CONVERSION of Substrate into mycelium,and the various products of metabolism.

I think you have raised this question before. Why are you interested in the amount of O2 used?

Oxygen plays an indirect role as well as being the terminal electron acceptor. will probably be difficult to measure, and as variable as the conditions in which it is happening in.

I guess you might want to read the Zadrazil study that Stametes refrences. Mushroom Science 9(part 1):621-652. It seems like it just measures CO2 evolved, I don't know if it measures O2 consumed!!!

Only studies refrenced in the book I quoted above is in relation to GLUCOSE consumption, Yeast, and the CRABTREE EFFECT. Fermentation/Respiration ratios.

Stametes also pays more attention to CO2 levels and their influence on growth rate and pin sets, as opposed to 02 consumption. He only seems to give a threshold quantity, as opposed to an optimum. I guess cause it will vary from strain to strain, species to species, substrate to substrate.

I think the Quantity you are looking for will be EXTREMELY hard to come up with. I guess it would involve measuring O2 levels prior to innoculation,immediately after innoculation,and after the mycelium stops growing, within a SEALED chamber, that maintains constant VEGETATIVE parameters.



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Invisiblepsyphon
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Re: Mushrooms & Energy [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1083314 - 11/25/02 02:13 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Sheep comes along, eats mushroom, has a pleasant experience and is pleasantly surprised that they grow from his/her dung. Sheep continues to eat the mushrooms and spread spores. I have heard that there are animals, specifically sheep (but I'm sure others exist) that repeatedly eat these mushrooms and seem to enjoy themselves. As to whether or not the spores can survive the digestive system, I've heard people suggest putting spore prints on apples and serving them to animals.


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Anonymous

Re: Mushrooms & Energy [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1083433 - 11/25/02 02:52 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Pentose-Phosphate Pathway produces two NADPH per Glucose 6-phosphate.

It is a side branch of the Embden-Meyerhof Pathway.

The EM and PP are the two major glycolytic cycles in almost all fungal cells.

You can equate it to the Oxidative Pentose Phosphate Pathway in Plants, not the PCR cycle.

Animals as well have a similar process(side branch to Glycolysis),not sure if it produces NADPH.
Edit: YES IT OCCURS IN ANIMALS AS WELL.


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: Mushrooms & Energy [Re: ]
    #1083525 - 11/25/02 03:38 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Wow.  :cool: Thanks for all your help!!


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"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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OfflineTeon
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Re: Mushrooms & Energy [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1084013 - 11/25/02 11:39 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I Fart Blue, as well as the referrence to the sheep, there is biological evidence to suggest that, ecspecially in humans, a low dose of mcylocybin (<1-2g dry weight) the psilocybin may actualy convey an adaptive advantage in that it produces an increase in visual acuity. If this thread continues I'll post the specifics (who, where, when) but I remember the study where people were given these low doses then asked to determine when two lines became exactly parllel to each other. THe poeple who consumed psilocybin did markedly better than those who did not. The value of visual acuity in a hunting and/or gathering life form is rather high and with only rudimentary logical abilities one can deduce a simple connection such as "When Ok eath tree shaped things growing from poo, Ok hit three birds with rocks. When Ok not eat little trees, Ok only bring back one bird. Eat more little trees from poo in morning, eat more bird that night..." Okay, so the example is cheesey but it conveys the point. To some animals (and don't forget, in the end, humans are just another animal) psilocybin actually has the ability to act as a attractor for the ingestion of the mushrooms as oppossed to a inhibitor.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Mushrooms & Energy [Re: Teon]
    #1084049 - 11/25/02 12:22 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

>but I remember the study where people were given these low doses then asked
>to determine when two lines became exactly parallel to each other.

I remember a study where people on shrooms were able to read a text that lacked letters to that degree, that sober persons weren?t able to read it, but the bemushroomed were able to read it!

Can anyone point me to this text?


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InvisibleHarveyWalbanger
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Re: Mushrooms & Energy [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1084098 - 11/25/02 12:55 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

What would intrest the hell out of me would be reading something on analyzing the mycelium network like neuropathways of a human brain. I mean, they have a neurotransmitter and make zillions of connections with itself, they might actually be capable of "learning"... even as a type that I have to really think about what I mean by learning. Maybe it's self-conscious.


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Mushrooms & Energy [Re: HarveyWalbanger]
    #1084331 - 11/25/02 02:33 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

If it's not self-concious, why else would it produce psilos? Really, there is no traditional motivation for a fungus to produce upwards of 2% of it's dry biomass in the form of a crystaline psychedelic drug which serves no recognizable internal or external purpose. It's certainly not a deterant to consumption, monkies will choose psychedelic tryptamines over food and water (which is surprising, because of all the hallucinogens, only tryptamines have this effect). The only known use in nature for psilocybin molecules is in the mamalian brain. There is no other place that it "fits" other than our receptors. And the fungus does not want to prevent consumption. Spores are dispersed by consumption much more effectively than by simply falling from a cap. Not to mention that consumption leads to propagation, in essence an assurance of darwinian survival.

For the study on increase of visual accuity and it's evolutionary advantages, consult McKenna's Food of the Gods as well as several essays from Archaic Revival. I don't remember if he performed the studies, but he does discuss them in depth. He is also the patron saint of the symbiotic relationship between the extraterrestrial fungus and the human propagators. Everyone should read all his books, particularly those mentioned above in addition to True Hallucinations.

About the crude logical capabilities required to recognize the advantageous abilities the fungus conveys. Typically, evolution doesn't work that way. No logic is needed. The ones who eat the fungus have a higher chance of reproducing whether they realize it or not. There are many other reasons for an ancient human or proto-human to consume psilocybin containing mushrooms. Fun. Novelty. Inspiration of early art and language abilities. Increased sexual desire and energy on low dosages. These are all reasons to eat the fungus without recognizing it's evolutionary advantages.

The combination of increased visual acuity and increased sexual drive which have been noted on low dosages provides the hard evolutionary advantages to humans. But the introduction of novelty also aids evolution. Brains are stimulated to work in symbolic forms, encouraging the developement of language, which in turn provides for better group hunting skills. Simply, psilocybin makes people act in novel ways. Today we say people act wacky on shrooms. But that wackiness inspires actions and thoughts that may have never been tried before. Sometimes they are useful new activites for people to participate in. Sometimes they aren't. But psychedelics clearly do not encourage complacency in behavorial norms. This in itself is an evolutionary advantage.

So, the evolutionary advantage conveyed by psilocybin is rather obvious and mult-faceted. But why did early humans consume them? Did they recognize that increased sexual desire would lead to world domination? Or did they do it because it was fun, evolution being the side effect? Perhaps they had early "religious" experiences which supplied a personal satisfaction encouraging the use of mushrooms.

When you get down to it, the reasons for eating the fungus don't matter. It's the fact that they did, and recieved many benefits from this. The other side of the riddle is why did the mushrooms produce a chemical whose only known use in nature is to provide these effects to a suitable mamalian brain? With so many evolutionary advantages available from psilocybin, and so many non-evolutionary motivations to encourage humans to consume them, in the absence of any other known use for these chemicals one must wonder if psilocybin were inteligently created only for these reasons. Is it possible for a fungus to know more about our brain chemistry and the methods of evolution than we did for thousands of years? Is it possible that psilocybin mushrooms are the product of an advanced inteligence's genetic engineering experiment? I don't know, but I would say that something inteligent is encouraging the symbiotic relationship that everyone on this board is obsessed with.


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Offlineribbit
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Re: Mushrooms & Energy [Re: mycofile]
    #1084752 - 11/25/02 05:10 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

mycofile,

very interesting read, thanks...

depending on what you believe or not. there is all kinds of theorys, an example would be salvia, some believe that salvia was purposely engineered by a higher consciosness so that when you enter the 'trip' that conscionsess has access to our dimension as we have access to theirs...briefly of course. lol

ive always been intrigued by consciosness, and have read many O books in perspective theory...

a thought is that we as a human consciosness are particulary important in the role of something with a great magnitude. that our existance and rapid advancement are being watched, pampered and even endorsed.

perhaps these mushrooms were engineered by an outside influence. i find it hard to believe that 'it just so happens' that psilocybin is similiar to serotonin which allows it to go through the transmitters....

anyhow, the mystery is great, and getting the answers hard.

so keep munching =o)~


Edited by ribbit (11/25/02 05:12 PM)


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OfflineRaadt
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Re: Mushrooms & Energy [Re: Anno]
    #1085015 - 11/25/02 07:06 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I am very interested in this as well Anno.

Does anyone have reference to what Anno is talking about?


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-- The information I provide is only information from readings, growing of gourmet mushrooms, and second hand stories--


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Advanced Mycology

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