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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Roadside drug testing... bad news for those of us who like to drive baked. [Re: johnm214]
    #10816460 - 08/07/09 08:09 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
In any case, the procedures you reference do indeed suck, but that's kind of a side issue.  The problem is what shoudl be prohibited, and I think its clear that impairment shoudl be prohibited and that such should be defined objectively such that either reaction times, concentration, et cet are the deciding factors- barring obvious inability to pass the test if it were administered (unconciousness et cet)




Agreed.  But, such a test has to be completely designed from scratch.  Most elements of current roadside impairment measures are complete bullshit.

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Re: Roadside drug testing... bad news for those of us who like to drive baked. [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #10816487 - 08/07/09 08:19 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

lol, yep


They seem utterly unscientific and completely arbitrary.  The patchwork of laws based on legislative prejudice and misconceptions and the arbitrary tests need to go out the window.


Impairment is the issue.  Lets ban, punish, and test for impairment, and get some scientific basis for our increasingly draconian laws.

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OfflineabetterlieS
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Re: Roadside drug testing... bad news for those of us who like to drive baked. [Re: johnm214]
    #10839099 - 08/11/09 11:55 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

How would you design this impairment test? I think it would be very close to impossible to make it unbiased and effective. The current roadside testing is a joke, walking the line and touching your nose and all that crap doesn't make much sense when used to determine if you are too fucked to drive a car.
substance tests are all we have.


--------------------
"I'm gonna clear the air, with the metal that's known to divide the whole atmosphere, and I love to share, them bullets come dime a dozen I kept 2 so I could have spare."

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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: Roadside drug testing... bad news for those of us who like to drive baked. [Re: abetterlie]
    #10839128 - 08/11/09 12:00 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

If the police got free reign to design their test, it'd probably involve a taser.


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Roadside drug testing... bad news for those of us who like to drive baked. [Re: abetterlie]
    #10841779 - 08/11/09 07:40 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

abetterlie said:
How would you design this impairment test? I think it would be very close to impossible to make it unbiased and effective. The current roadside testing is a joke, walking the line and touching your nose and all that crap doesn't make much sense when used to determine if you are too fucked to drive a car.
substance tests are all we have.




If impairment is a real thing then it is measurable.  If it is measurable then there is a method which can be used to measure it.  I see no a priori reason that such a method could not be in the form of a test which is administered on the side of the road or anywhere else.

Substance level tests would be useful if they actually correlated reliably with impairment.  Instead all we have are indirect measurements (of, for example, breath alcohol percentage) of something (blood alcohol percentage) which is an unreliable indirect measurement of what we really care about which is actual impairment.

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OfflineabetterlieS
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Re: Roadside drug testing... bad news for those of us who like to drive baked. [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #10841848 - 08/11/09 07:52 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I realize that. The level of impairment is almost certainly directly coordinated with the amount of substance consumed, just not in a known relation. I'm just curious about how a test could be developed that would accurately measure the variable that we care about, when it is so difficult even for one's self to quantify.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Roadside drug testing... bad news for those of us who like to drive baked. [Re: abetterlie]
    #10841943 - 08/11/09 08:06 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

abetterlie said:
How would you design this impairment test? I think it would be very close to impossible to make it unbiased and effective. The current roadside testing is a joke, walking the line and touching your nose and all that crap doesn't make much sense when used to determine if you are too fucked to drive a car.
substance tests are all we have.






Like changtzu said, why is this so difficult?


What we measure will depend on what the legislature decides constitutes impairment, but I would think it would be: the reaction time increasing between recieving visual stimulous and taking mechanical action in response; loss of ability to maintain concentration/control over time; perhaps loss of short term memory and inpercision in mechanical movements.  These would certainly be better things to test than the presence or absence of controlled substances and analogues, or the level of an intoxicant with no requirement that the person be impaired before being subjected to harsh penalties.


An example could be a pair of galsses with a screen in them and a control for your hands.  A person could be instructed to indicate a response to a stimulous and the accuracy and reaction time could be measured.  Further, short term memory could be tested via obvious methods.


A very good test would seem to be a device such as this with a lifelike steering wheel and pedals.  The person could be required to demonstrate ability to react quickly in a driving simulator, and make appropriate corrections in response to visual stimuli.


But a simple test could just be reaction time and concentration with the subject responding with a joystick or something.


But all of this is unnecessary conjecture.  What is obvious is that if impairment is actually bad then it will produce results which can be tested.  Decide what level of awareness and capability is required and then test that instead of worthless blood levels and we'll all be better off.

My grandfather can't see worth shit, can barely drive due to very bad reaction times and lack of concentration, and is destined to kill someone.  He has a license in better shape then most people simply because he seldom drives when the family can prevent it.  If he took an adequate test he would likely be found unfit and have his license withdrawn, which would benefit society far more than a test that determines him sober, and lets him carry on running over geese he doesn't see and driving over lanes he didn't know where there, while making turns without looking in his blind spots.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Roadside drug testing... bad news for those of us who like to drive baked. [Re: abetterlie]
    #10841992 - 08/11/09 08:13 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

abetterlie said:
I realize that. The level of impairment is almost certainly directly coordinated with the amount of substance consumed, just not in a known relation. I'm just curious about how a test could be developed that would accurately measure the variable that we care about, when it is so difficult even for one's self to quantify.





What difference does the relationship between consumption and impairment make?


I thought the whole goal was to accurately test impairment since this is the evil?


The legislature or science community would find what generall is accepted as the lowest level of skills needed to safely drive a car (perhaps by measuring my incredibly hazardous grandfather's skills or maybe upping the base line from these if we've decided even currently licensed individuals are impaired- as I urge) and then test for these.



However they are defined, we would simply need to have tests which seem to measure them and then preform experiments to validate the relationship.


Then institute the tests.  To give a decent example (unlike my previous post which is just conjecture) I'd need to figure out what the negative effects of intoxication are in the legislature's opinion, but if they exist they can be tested, and then we just need to validate the relationships between the test and the impairment through experiments.

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InvisibleDepthToTheCore
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Re: Roadside drug testing... bad news for those of us who like to drive baked. [Re: johnm214]
    #10844208 - 08/12/09 06:35 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

We have roadside drug testing here, have for about 4 years now.

Haven't gone through one myself, but mates have.

I'm all for having intoxicated drivers off the road, but i don't want to test positive if i had smoked weed 8 hours earlier, which does happen here.

:frown:

Cops argument to that is "it shouldn't be in your system to begin with".


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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: Roadside drug testing... bad news for those of us who like to drive baked. [Re: DepthToTheCore]
    #10844649 - 08/12/09 09:38 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Seriously, if I wanted to, I could be baked out of my mind, and it would not be visibly detectable.  Visine and mouthwash:  win.

Any effect it might have would likely be negligible on my driving skills, but I still wouldn't be one to take the risk.  Always before any substance taking (pot/alcohol/whatever), you always gotta analyze "what is the worst that can happen?", and whether the risk/benefit is worth it.  Behind the wheel of a car, just consider the worst: that's a bad fucking trip.  Who wants that?


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Invisiblelegallyhomeless
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Re: Roadside drug testing... bad news for those of us who like to drive baked. [Re: DepthToTheCore]
    #10844672 - 08/12/09 09:45 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DepthToTheCore said:
We have roadside drug testing here, have for about 4 years now.

Haven't gone through one myself, but mates have.

I'm all for having intoxicated drivers off the road, but i don't want to test positive if i had smoked weed 8 hours earlier, which does happen here.

:frown:

Cops argument to that is "it shouldn't be in your system to begin with".





When ever I went to court last week they had a drug recognition expert (DRE)

He stated that the initial effects of marijuana lasts only 3 to 4 hours (if you have some killer chronic :tongue:) but there are other long term effects the user may not know about that can last up to 24 hours. :whatever:


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InvisibleDepthToTheCore
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Re: Roadside drug testing... bad news for those of us who like to drive baked. [Re: Minstrel]
    #10847677 - 08/12/09 05:29 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Minstrel said:
Seriously, if I wanted to, I could be baked out of my mind, and it would not be visibly detectable.  Visine and mouthwash:  win.





I wouldn't rely on mouthwash, its failed here more than once. They take a pretty good swab from the inside of your cheek, the mouthwash can't wash away all the saliva.


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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: Roadside drug testing... bad news for those of us who like to drive baked. [Re: DepthToTheCore]
    #10847811 - 08/12/09 05:48 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Oh of course that wouldn't work against a hardcore swab test, but the whole point of the subterfuge is to not let it get that far.  :wink:


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OfflineabetterlieS
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Re: Roadside drug testing... bad news for those of us who like to drive baked. [Re: legallyhomeless]
    #10851310 - 08/13/09 08:00 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

He stated that the initial effects of marijuana lasts only 3 to 4 hours (if you have some killer chronic :tongue:) but there are other long term effects the user may not know about that can last up to 24 hours. :whatever:




I think that the effects of smoking pot last longer than 24 hours. I don't think this is bullshit at all. I definitely feel dumber the day after I blaze. It is far more noticeable if you don't smoke that often.

Quote:


The legislature or science community would find what generall is accepted as the lowest level of skills needed to safely drive a car (perhaps by measuring my incredibly hazardous grandfather's skills or maybe upping the base line from these if we've decided even currently licensed individuals are impaired- as I urge) and then test for these.





I didn't really think of this. You are absolutely right that it should be illegal to drive a car if you cannot see or react quickly enough to avoid accidents. This comment made me think of the motorcycle safety test, which you need to take to get your license. It's actually pretty difficult, and involves taking evasive action, and they measure your reaction time by making you go a minimum speed and giving you a short distance to swerve out of the way of an imaginary oncoming bus.

I think it would make a lot of sense to make drivers re take the drivers test every few years to make sure they are still safe and capable drivers. It would really suck though to have to go through the nonsense of scheduling that shit with the dmv, and getting the time off work to go do it, but it probably would make roads safer.


--------------------
"I'm gonna clear the air, with the metal that's known to divide the whole atmosphere, and I love to share, them bullets come dime a dozen I kept 2 so I could have spare."

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OfflineCrimpJiggler
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Re: Roadside drug testing... bad news for those of us who like to drive baked. [Re: abetterlie]
    #15117499 - 09/22/11 02:19 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I bet there are ways to circumvent this. For example you could carry a drink around with you that contains a compound that will destroy the metabolites of your drug of choice. Some chemists need to get on the case to come up with suitable compounds for this kinda thing.


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Offlinescifipirate
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Re: Roadside drug testing... bad news for those of us who like to drive baked. [Re: CrimpJiggler]
    #15121821 - 09/23/11 09:19 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

If you can't drive stoned, you probably shouldn't be driving sober either. I've seen old fucks pull more dumb shit than any stoner. Matter of fact I've never seen a stoner pulling the silly shit I see old people do on a daily basis. Driving and poking smot make you slow down and be more cautious, THINK OF TEH CHILDREN!

Just deny the test and you won't get a DUI, least here in FL it works that way.


And I just relized this thread is 2 years old when I saw legallyhomeless  :feelsbadman:

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Roadside drug testing... bad news for those of us who like to drive baked. [Re: scifipirate]
    #15122113 - 09/23/11 10:48 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

scifipirate said:
Just deny the test and you won't get a DUI, least here in FL it works that way.




Except Florida has an implied consent law and by refusing the test you lose your license for 1 year.

b.  Any person who accepts the privilege extended by the laws of this state of operating a motor vehicle within this state is, by so operating such vehicle, deemed to have given his or her consent to submit to a urine test for the purpose of detecting the presence of chemical substances as set forth in s. 877.111 or controlled substances if the person is lawfully arrested for any offense allegedly committed while the person was driving or was in actual physical control of a motor vehicle while under the influence of chemical substances or controlled substances. The urine test must be incidental to a lawful arrest and administered at a detention facility or any other facility, mobile or otherwise, which is equipped to administer such tests at the request of a law enforcement officer who has reasonable cause to believe such person was driving or was in actual physical control of a motor vehicle within this state while under the influence of chemical substances or controlled substances. The urine test shall be administered at a detention facility or any other facility, mobile or otherwise, which is equipped to administer such test in a reasonable manner that will ensure the accuracy of the specimen and maintain the privacy of the individual involved. The administration of a urine test does not preclude the administration of another type of test. The person shall be told that his or her failure to submit to any lawful test of his or her urine will result in the suspension of the person's privilege to operate a motor vehicle for a period of 1 year for the first refusal, or for a period of 18 months if the driving privilege of such person has been previously suspended as a result of a refusal to submit to such a test or tests, and shall also be told that if he or she refuses to submit to a lawful test of his or her urine and his or her driving privilege has been previously suspended for a prior refusal to submit to a lawful test of his or her breath, urine, or blood, he or she commits a misdemeanor in addition to any other penalties. The refusal to submit to a urine test upon the request of a law enforcement officer as provided in this section is admissible into evidence in any criminal proceeding.

See it here.


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Offlinescifipirate
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Re: Roadside drug testing... bad news for those of us who like to drive baked. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #15124193 - 09/23/11 06:20 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

scifipirate said:
Just deny the test and you won't get a DUI, least here in FL it works that way.




Except Florida has an implied consent law and by refusing the test you lose your license for 1 year.





Yeah you would lose it if you got a DUI as well. Either way you lose it for a year, but one comes without a DUI.

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Offline4DEAD2HEAD0
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Re: Roadside drug testing... bad news for those of us who like to drive baked. [Re: scifipirate]
    #15124496 - 09/23/11 07:21 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

ok when i first started reading this post i thought i was a test to see if you were high right then. but then i read the artical and its just a drug test period right? f that im gona buy some of this mouth was stuff around here that suposed to mask a five panel


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Offlinebholzer
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Re: Roadside drug testing... bad news for those of us who like to drive baked. [Re: legallyhomeless]
    #15152243 - 09/29/11 10:44 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

legallyhomeless said:
The cop says I was high and he found a half smoked blunt in my car.

Moron hands me the joint and tells me to put it in my pocket. I ate it :shrug:




Somebody resurrected this old-ass thread, so now I feel like I can finally laugh at this publicly :ilold::lol:


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