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OfflinegENERIX
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ISP - Big Brother
    #10785160 - 08/02/09 11:17 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Does Internet Service Providers keep tabs on each of their customers internet use? This is a question, I've been wondering for a while but never been able to answer it.

I have always been cautious about my own security and was wondering whether, or not your internet use is constantly being watched?

Tor has always came HIGHLY recommended but I've been unable to use the service while surfing the net. Web pages load way too slow and it seems to cripple my download speeds.


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OfflineProf. Astro
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Re: ISP - Big Brother [Re: gENERIX]
    #10785260 - 08/02/09 11:38 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

ISP keep logs of the users IP, I'm not sure if indexing is used on all providers, it would be best to contact yours and ask or do some searches.

There are other anonymous-webbrowsing resources that you can pay for that have the same effect as tor but enable the user to surf at faster speeds. The problem with just tor is that your cookies and cache, etc. are still able to be picked up in packets. There are programs that can solve this problem as well.


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OfflineRitual
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Re: ISP - Big Brother [Re: Prof. Astro]
    #10788592 - 08/02/09 09:21 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Yes unfortunatly your internet use is logged.

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: ISP - Big Brother [Re: gENERIX]
    #10790346 - 08/03/09 04:17 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Does Internet Service Providers keep tabs on each of their customers internet use? This is a question, I've been wondering for a while but never been able to answer it.




That depends on which ISP you have.  In general the answer is no.  ISP's keep track of which users get which IP's, but very rarely store information on what those users are doing.  That type of information takes a lot of drive space and there is no commercial incentive to store it.

But they easily can if they feel like it.

Quote:

or not your internet use is constantly being watched?




If you are at work, there is a very good chance of that.  50% of companies employ someone to monitor the internet use of their employees.

If you are at home, probably not.

Quote:

Tor has always came HIGHLY recommended but I've been unable to use the service while surfing the net. Web pages load way too slow and it seems to cripple my download speeds.




I spoke in person with the creator of Tor this weekend.  He said that some improvements to Tor's speed have recently been made and more speed improvements will be implemented in the next 6 months.

Quote:

Ritual said: Yes unfortunatly your internet use is logged.




What do you mean by logged, and why would a commercial ISP do such a thing?  No one is paying them to log.

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OfflineRitual
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Re: ISP - Big Brother [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #10802591 - 08/05/09 12:11 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Alan it is pretty well known that ISP's keep logs of such things as bits and bytes used.  Dns lookups (Ie what addresses you connect to,  ie what websites you visit).  Time and date of use.  Also I beleive they store the actual packets you send (ie all transmitted information) for a certain period of time (maybe forever).

This is evident by numerous cases of LE requesting this information to be used in investigations and eventually in court to prosecute people.

ISP will store all your sites visited collectively and maybe the information you communicate.  You can read your ISP's term of use policy for your internet.  All of the major internet providers include a clause in their EULA that states that they will monitor your activity.


Remember everytime you broadcast out over the internet it goes from your computer to your ISP to the person you were trying to connect to.  They are the middleman in every communication EVERYTIME.  There is no direct wire leading from your computer to anybody's elses computers.  I think people think its you sending information straight to whatever site your connected to.  Your connection ALWAYS goes from you to your ISP to the site you want to connect to.

Just me connecting to Shroomery if I run a tracert there are 15 different servers my connection goes trough before reaching here.

All of them capable of seeing what im sending and logging it.

And those are only the servers they want me to see. There could be 100 servers my message bounces through before reaching here.


You would be a fool to think your ISP is not an actual .GOV front company or otherwise deeply rooted.  The internet business is a monopoly in this country.  All the fiber optics and all that jazz that makes the internet work is owned by a very very small minority of people.  All funded and originating from .GOV

Safe surfing.

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Offlinesupra
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Re: ISP - Big Brother [Re: Ritual]
    #10807155 - 08/05/09 06:30 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ritual said:
Alan it is pretty well known that ISP's keep logs of such things as bits and bytes used.  Dns lookups (Ie what addresses you connect to,  ie what websites you visit).  Time and date of use.  Also I beleive they store the actual packets you send (ie all transmitted information) for a certain period of time (maybe forever).





This would be impossible.  To store all data transmitted, the ISP would practically have all data on the internet stored multiple times over...

If i download a file, all that data is transmitted through the line, they are not saving it all.  Say i download just 30gb a month, as does the other 600k subscribers just in my city alone.  Thats 18 petabytes, in just one month, then do that for years and years...no way.

They most likely keep a log of what sites/IP's you hit, but even then, only for a certain amount of time, not indefinitely...not to mention, lots of ISP's have dynamic addressing for their customers, meaning their customers IP's change regularly, so to keep track of these people, you would have to see what IP is leased to which customer at which times, on top of everything else you would have to keep.

No company WANTS to spend money logging things and having storage space if they don't have to...

peace

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OfflineRitual
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Re: ISP - Big Brother [Re: supra]
    #10809207 - 08/06/09 12:33 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Supra I think you are underestimating how easy it is. 

They dont need to store every bit and byte you send.  They only need to extract the important data.  For example the text you send in chat conversations.  Anything that is ecrypted that you send.  Anything that isnt HTML lookups.  Anything that is filled in on an internet form.  The list goes on.  Cut out the majority of traffic that isnt important and you can keep a profile of someones entire internet use for years in tens of gigabytes.

If you go and download CounterStrike they dont need to store Counterstrike they only need to know that yes it was counterstrike you downloaded we scanned the file and made sure it matched so just make a small note that the person downloaded CounterStrike.

You can mirror the entire Internet on a single hard drive nowadays.  It is only listed in Terabytes.  Morroring every file out there is alot higher but not so much that your ISP couldnt do it.

Stay safe and be a little more open minded and careful.  Never assume something is impossible because I guarantee you they are doing it.

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: ISP - Big Brother [Re: Ritual]
    #10809390 - 08/06/09 01:16 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

They dont need to store every bit and byte you send.  They only need to extract the important data.  For example the text you send in chat conversations.




There is no way an ISP would save that.

Is there some reason you are not encrypting your chat sessions?  Use wireshark to check.

Quote:

Also I beleive they store the actual packets you send (ie all transmitted information) for a certain period of time (maybe forever).




No.  Saving all packets takes too much storage. 

Quote:

  Cut out the majority of traffic that isnt important and you can keep a profile of someones entire internet use for years in tens of gigabytes.




That is not an ISP's job and that is not how they make their money.

Quote:

You can mirror the entire Internet on a single hard drive nowadays.  It is only listed in Terabytes. 




Not even remotely true.

Quote:

Never assume something is impossible because I guarantee you they are doing it.




Some ISP's might store packet headers.  I don't think anything would ever come of it though.

Which ISP is "they"?

How do you know?

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: ISP - Big Brother [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #10811198 - 08/06/09 12:47 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

> The problem with just tor is that your cookies and cache, etc. are still able to be picked up in packets.

No, tor is encrypted end to end and additionally by each node it travels through. So your ISP can get nothing from the traffic and neither can any of the nodes it travels through.

You really need to take off the tinfoil hat. ISPs are in the business of making money, and every busted customer is one who won't be paying his bill every month. All they care about is how much bandwidth you're using and they don't need to look at any packets for that.


-FF

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OfflineRitual
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Re: ISP - Big Brother [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #10811239 - 08/06/09 12:54 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Alan cmon now.

If your going to just say no to everything I say at least give an explanation. 

It is an ISP's job to make sure theyre internet they sell you isnt being used for nefarious purposes.  Its in the EULA.  So yes it is their job and in their interest to monitor in certain ways how you use their service.  They have even been caught selling this information to corporations who then use that information to determine what kind of habits you have (shopping preferences,  search preferences,  etc).

Then there is the case against AT&T which was caught doing this very same thing we are talking about.  THey were in cahoots with the government in tracking and monitoring American citizens the government wanted to keep tabs on.  There was no subpeonas and no warrants.  Just a mutual agreement that At&T would supply the information to the government.  The EFF (Electronic Freedom Frontier) has a lawsuit against AT&T pending.

And yes you can store an entire copy of every website on the internet minus pictures and files on a single commercially available hard drive.  And even Petabyte storage is not that much money nowadays.

Stripping packets headers is very minimal storage requirements.  Extrapolating important data and storing that is also not that hefty.  I have chat logs of every chat I have ever partaken in for the last couple of years stored in less then 500MB.  A list of every website I have ever visited would be even less.

Thinking they dont do it is one thing.  Thinking its impossible is another thing entirely.

I have seen the evidence that they do these types of things so I assume that they do it to the full potential which they are capable of.

You trust the government?  I dont.  I dont trust our intelligence agencies to follow the law.  I can picture the NSA,  CIA,  FBI,  DHS,  whoever data mining peoples entire existence.

Beleive what you want.  Either way it doesnt matter I still use my computer religiously for the things I hold interest's in.  It doesnt scare or sway me to being a privacy extremist who takes ultra care in computer security.  I dont even run a virus scanner or any kind of firewall..

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: ISP - Big Brother [Re: Ritual]
    #10811476 - 08/06/09 01:35 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

> It is an ISP's job to make sure theyre internet they sell you isnt being used for nefarious purposes.

No it's not.  That's the cops job.  That's like saying walmart job is to make sure the cheap chineese kinves they sell you aren't going to be used to kill people.

There are laws that require them to cooperate with the government, but ISP's have way too much work just to handle all the noobs that can't get their dialup working or plug their cable modem into their TVs. They certainly aren't going to hire more personel to dig through your private shit. Why would they do that? They would get no income from it and it would cost them more time and money every time they found something.  It's clearly not in their interest so it's foolish to suggest that they would waste time and money on it.

Most ISP's have one tech support guy for every 100-1000 customers.  Most aren't even staffed well enough to deal with their regular problems, let alone take on such a major undertaking for no money.


-FF

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Offline2859558484
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Re: ISP - Big Brother [Re: Ritual]
    #10811606 - 08/06/09 01:58 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

trust alan on this one, haha


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OfflineRitual
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Re: ISP - Big Brother [Re: fastfred]
    #10811976 - 08/06/09 03:06 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
> It is an ISP's job to make sure theyre internet they sell you isnt being used for nefarious purposes.

No it's not.  That's the cops job.  That's like saying walmart job is to make sure the cheap chineese kinves they sell you aren't going to be used to kill people.

There are laws that require them to cooperate with the government, but ISP's have way too much work just to handle all the noobs that can't get their dialup working or plug their cable modem into their TVs. They certainly aren't going to hire more personel to dig through your private shit. Why would they do that? They would get no income from it and it would cost them more time and money every time they found something.  It's clearly not in their interest so it's foolish to suggest that they would waste time and money on it.

Most ISP's have one tech support guy for every 100-1000 customers.  Most aren't even staffed well enough to deal with their regular problems, let alone take on such a major undertaking for no money.


-FF




There have been cases of ISP's terminating service of customers who were caught doing bad things all because of the ISP's active monitoring methods.  A good example are illegal music downloads.  They monitored who was establishing peer to peer connections for file sharing and then disciplined customers for sharing illegal files.

Alot of child porn weirdos are tipped off to law enforcement through ISP providers.  File sharers.  Spam emailers.  Those that break the terms of use by running servers off their home connections.

Hard to do that if your not "watching"

Thats just my opinion and insight.  Take it for what you will.  Stay safe.

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: ISP - Big Brother [Re: Ritual]
    #10812189 - 08/06/09 03:41 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Post some citations for your claims.

ISPs usually terminate service for P2P because they are using excessive bandwidth, not because of any legal reason.  And typically RIAA contacts ISPs and threatens lawsuits if they don't supply user info.  ISPs don't initiate any of this themselves.

As for the rest this is all because of the ISP being contacted by law enforcement or excessive bandwidth.  ISPs don't give a shit what you're doing unless they are required to do something or you use way over your share of bandwidth.  They don't have the time, money, or any reason to do anything else.

If they were publicly outed as spying on their customers it would be the death of their business.  No ISP is going to risk that.

Again cite some cases or quit spouting crackpot paranoia.


-FF

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OfflineRitual
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Re: ISP - Big Brother [Re: fastfred]
    #10812321 - 08/06/09 03:59 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

A good site to read up on Internet privacy and monitoring concerns is EFF.org

I think you will find a bit of enlightenment there.  You should also become a member because they are very active in defending us against these very things.  I have been a member for the last ten years.

A bit less extreme then they used to be,  they are playing the politically correct game now.  Still the best organization out there right now for Internet privacy.  And yes the rabbit hole goes way deep when it comes to the level of intrusion governments and corporations have participated in.

There are billion dollar companies solely in the business of data mining your everyday habits.

I was just trying to open some eyes and change some opinions here.  Maybe im even wrong.  Dont take offense to my opinion though please.  Disagreeing is fine though.

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: ISP - Big Brother [Re: Ritual]
    #10813882 - 08/06/09 07:57 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Nothing wrong with your opinion, but what we need are facts. If it has never come to light publicly then it probably doesn't happen.

Even government programs like carnivore, which snarfs up entire ISP's data streams, has come to light and is public knowledge. So you're not too far off, sometimes all your data is stolen and analyzed if the government wants to. But as far as ISPs doing it, we would have heard of it.  Certainly they sometimes check for P2P packets on high-bandwidth users and threaten them or turn them off until they call in to bitch and agree to no more P2P, but that's a far cry from sifting through all your packets looking for an illegal activity.


-FF

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Offlinesupra
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Re: ISP - Big Brother [Re: Ritual]
    #10820877 - 08/08/09 12:42 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ritual said:
Alan cmon now.

If your going to just say no to everything I say at least give an explanation. 

It is an ISP's job to make sure theyre internet they sell you isnt being used for nefarious purposes.  Its in the EULA.  So yes it is their job and in their interest to monitor in certain ways how you use their service.  They have even been caught selling this information to corporations who then use that information to determine what kind of habits you have (shopping preferences,  search preferences,  etc).





It is not their job to do any such things.  It is against their EULA to use their service to commit illegal acts, yes, but they do not spend a whole lot of money detecting these sort of things, if so, every single person that downloaded any single illegal torrent file would be prosecuted/have their service disconnected.  ISPs are in the business of doing just what they are called, being Internet Service Providers, not internet watchdogs.  Software captures what sites you visit, shopping habits, searches, etc. and send it to other servers, and from that, these server you ads, pop-ups, etc...I would like to see a link or some sort of evidence that an ISP was selling browsing information that could uniquely identify who was searching...

Quote:


And yes you can store an entire copy of every website on the internet minus pictures and files on a single commercially available hard drive.  And even Petabyte storage is not that much money nowadays.





If you take out files, there is nothing at all left, so you would have nothing to store.  I would like to see your cheapest 1 petabyte storage system.

Quote:


Stripping packets headers is very minimal storage requirements.  Extrapolating important data and storing that is also not that hefty. 





I would have to agree that this is not that hard to do on a single person or even many people at once...but not everyone.  Just the amount of processing power it would take to strip off the header of every packet that every person that connects through an ISP and store all that data all the time is immense, and it is not done and would make horrible business sense for any ISP out there.

Quote:


Thinking they dont do it is one thing.  Thinking its impossible is another thing entirely.





The vast majority of ISPs do not have the capital to do something like you describe, nor would they spend it on it if they had it...for what reason would they do this?

Quote:


I have seen the evidence that they do these types of things so I assume that they do it to the full potential which they are capable of.





could i see it too, i'm very interested.  I have a degree in CS and work in the industry do not believe an ISP has the means to store all users data all the time and analyzing it.

Quote:


You trust the government?  I dont.  I dont trust our intelligence agencies to follow the law.  I can picture the NSA,  CIA,  FBI,  DHS,  whoever data mining peoples entire existence.





Hell no i don't, why would anyone?  And i wouldn't be much worried about data mining every single persons existence all at one time, but people of interest most definitely.  If you want something that would make much more sense for them to do that is much easier, look into database matching...

peace

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Re: ISP - Big Brother [Re: Ritual]
    #10820998 - 08/08/09 01:19 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ritual said:
Alan cmon now.

If your going to just say no to everything I say at least give an explanation. 






He did give you one.  He said nope and asked for your source- which you equivocated on and haven't yet provided.


Like fast fred said, we need the facts.


I don't know what they do, but your opponent's reasoning seems logical, and you've not provided any reliable information, so...

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