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Kickle
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Magic -- Spontaneity vs Ritual
#10769997 - 07/30/09 05:22 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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It seems that magic is a fundamental aspect of the world. Natural, if you will. And being a natural part of the world, it requires no awareness in order to exist. In this way, it seems much like gravity -- even when we were not aware that gravity was the force holding us onto this orb, it was doing so. And in this way, even when we are not aware of magic, we often times employ it.
Is it due to the fact that we also are a part of nature, and so inextricably linked to that which magic [and gravity] is also linked? If so, is it only natural that all of these forces interact with one another? This certainly seems to be the case -- we must interact with gravity, it's part of having a physical body. So too, through having a mind, we seem to be without choice in our interaction with magic.
The question for me, then, is why do we even require ceremonies or rituals to invoke its power? Is the spontaneous nature of magic lacking in some way?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
Edited by Kickle (07/30/09 05:23 PM)
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jivJaN
yes



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Re: Magic -- Spontaneity vs Ritual [Re: Kickle] 1
#10770442 - 07/30/09 07:05 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
The question for me, then, is why do we even require ceremonies or rituals to invoke its power? Is the spontaneous nature of magic lacking in some way?
The purpose of ritual is simply to enhance the belief. It is never necessary. If you were to believe without a doubt (which is a very rare quality among the polarized minds of this realm ) ... magic , would simply become a reflection of what it is you wish to actualize and perceive. Meaning.. the difference between you.. and God .. is merely a belief. That is why... it IS necessary to understand your connection with everything.
Once the individual realizes its true self as being everything... God is actualized and experienced. God.. is infinity... therefore.. there is nothing but magic. Telekinesis is nothing but you moving. Telepathy is internal chit chat.. etc.. you follow me ?
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--------------------- All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional. They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively. I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal. If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..
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AlteredAgain
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Re: Magic -- Spontaneity vs Ritual [Re: jivJaN]
#10770665 - 07/30/09 07:53 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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--------------------
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c0sm0nautt

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Re: Magic -- Spontaneity vs Ritual [Re: jivJaN]
#10770890 - 07/30/09 08:44 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I follow yea!
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the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke


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Re: Magic -- Spontaneity vs Ritual [Re: c0sm0nautt] 1
#10771106 - 07/30/09 09:30 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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telling somebody "have a nice day" is magic, as is "you're gonna burn in hell if you dont go to church"
of course the first one is a far more "good' in its nature, but I'm just supporting that everything is magic
ritual has it's good uses, but is not necessary. For example, the ritual setting of peyote amongst native americans is not necessarily to invoke any greater magic, althouhg in some ways it is, because their ritual setting is used to allow greater focus on love and compassion within the community. Other types of shamanic rituals are used to help participants better focus on certain things.
walking 3 steps forward, turning clockwise, walking 5 steps backward, lighting a candle and then reciting the words "inovukus deus magicanteus" is nothing but hocus pocus BS. But using a candle in a ritual can have real magic, because it is a simple little flame that is burning, that is repesentative of the eternal flame that exists in the universe (the sun, etc), and can therefore evoke certain thoughts and feelings that may not be present without it.
everything is magic, and magic is real.
have a good day, everyone 
-------------------- MY HAIR IS A BIRD YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
  
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fazdazzle
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Re: Magic -- Spontaneity vs Ritual [Re: Kickle]
#10771596 - 07/30/09 11:09 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Very insightful!
You're right, though; ritual is unnecessary. It just goes to show how little faith people have in themselves, so they turn to an external something to grasp onto and put their faith in.
I think your idea about magick's intrinsic effects are the reasons why "sleight of mind" is a must in order for magick to work. Have faith that it will work - then forget about it - the act of doing so is evidence of your faith.
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lavod
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Re: Magic -- Spontaneity vs Ritual [Re: fazdazzle]
#10771937 - 07/31/09 12:16 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Many overlook the ART of magick. As an analogy, while one may grasp a certain concept within the comedy and tragedy that is life, is'nt it enrapturing to act it all out in a play? Art and science combined make for a balanced individual. Denying the I(eye-Yod-Hadit) of glitter and glimmer leads to spaces bitter and ever dimmer. Shine on.
EDIT: Antoher analogy can be drawn between free form magick versus ceremonial and musick in regards to improvision and structured songs. Methinks both have their merit.
Edited by lavod (07/31/09 12:41 AM)
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MisterMuscaria



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Re: Magic -- Spontaneity vs Ritual [Re: Kickle]
#10772645 - 07/31/09 04:35 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Ritual is for those with no imagination and free form is for those with no discipline.
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the bizzle
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a concert can be a freeform ritual
-------------------- MY HAIR IS A BIRD YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
  
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Taco Chef
I found dead John Cheever



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Re: Magic -- Spontaneity vs Ritual [Re: the bizzle]
#10773022 - 07/31/09 07:29 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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http://www.biroco.com/kaos/kaos14.html
joel's discussion of spontaneous magick is a great read
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stzacrack
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Re: Magic -- Spontaneity vs Ritual [Re: Taco Chef]
#10773122 - 07/31/09 08:02 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I find that everywhere I go, everyone I encounter, and everything surrounding me, has a very magical feel to it...it is undeniable.
When you allow yourself to believe and then open your mind, it's amazing what comes to be...
The earth is so beautiful, I am forever loving to the plants and beings on this earth. I always feel an unconditional love for all animals and plants, they surely are giving you that love in return, and that symbiotic relationship with nature is magical in it's very premise.
I guess I'm referring to spontaneous, forever existing magic naturally occurring every moment in our realities.
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the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke


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Re: Magic -- Spontaneity vs Ritual [Re: stzacrack]
#10773270 - 07/31/09 08:40 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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innocent magic is stronger than evil
-------------------- MY HAIR IS A BIRD YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
  
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Taco Chef
I found dead John Cheever



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Re: Magic -- Spontaneity vs Ritual [Re: the bizzle]
#10773304 - 07/31/09 08:49 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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i don't really think magick can be evil...not tring to flame, just an answer.
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the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke


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Re: Magic -- Spontaneity vs Ritual [Re: Taco Chef]
#10773330 - 07/31/09 09:00 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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it's a lyric. That, in itself, is magic. To remove any power of evil that keeps a person afraid or in doubt. You could doubt the validity of the lyric, but if you were to hear someone singing it with intense passion, the energy would affirm itself, and cause magic to happen
If anything it is a good mantra
-------------------- MY HAIR IS A BIRD YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
  
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desant
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Re: Magic -- Spontaneity vs Ritual [Re: the bizzle]
#10773865 - 07/31/09 10:39 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: It seems that magic is a fundamental aspect of the world. Natural, if you will.
And i am very natural to it.
I was just thinking about this thread few days ago: it seems majority of magick ive done /im doing is - "on the fly" / spontaneous.
I need to practise ceremonial / ritualistic magick to do stuff whenever i want to.
"The question for me, then, is why do we even require ceremonies or rituals to invoke its power? Is the spontaneous nature of magic lacking in some way? "
I dont know dude, i do spontaneous magic every day and its a lot of fun...
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MisterMuscaria



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Re: Magic -- Spontaneity vs Ritual [Re: Taco Chef]
#10775505 - 07/31/09 03:47 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
novumorganum said: i don't really think magick can be evil...not tring to flame, just an answer.
There is no evil magick, only practitioners with evil intent.
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thefarside
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So many of us have forgot what the magic is. Maybe we forget for a lifetime, maybe we forget for 5 minutes when we`re stuck in traffic and late for a job interview. This is where ritual becomes helpful. Techniques that have worked from before time as a reminder.... if you don`t need a reminder, then maybe you practice the ritual for the sake of others, for those that have forgotten.
Our barriers to true perception are strong, karma, darkness, being human, call it what you will, but they are there. How wonderful to live in a world full of rituals designed to help. No need to struggle against them, just bow to the ground in gratitude for the amazing wisdom in a candle or a song at church or a shamanic ceremony in the Amazon jungle.
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MisterMuscaria



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Re: Magic -- Spontaneity vs Ritual [Re: thefarside]
#10775593 - 07/31/09 04:03 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Ritual is really just a reminder that the magick is there IMO. It serves as something tangible with which to interact with the intangible.
It serves to create something in the mind where it didnt exist before.
The pentacle I may use in ritual is a physical representation of something that is not physical.
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Kickle
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Re: Magic -- Spontaneity vs Ritual [Re: Kickle]
#10776374 - 07/31/09 06:15 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Wonderful responses all!
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Kupo
Kupop!


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Re: Magic -- Spontaneity vs Ritual [Re: thefarside]
#10780423 - 08/01/09 02:19 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I feel like I have willed things into happening, or thought things into occurence. Usually when emotions are strongly involved.
Yet I tell myself I don't know a thing about magic I feel like I forget that I know
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MisterMuscaria



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Re: Magic -- Spontaneity vs Ritual [Re: Kupo]
#10780473 - 08/01/09 02:33 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Societies programming, both from the religious side and scientific side; for the most part really strive to get people to forget and break their spirits in early childhood.
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TeamAmerica



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Re: Magic -- Spontaneity vs Ritual [Re: Kickle]
#10780515 - 08/01/09 02:43 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I see ritual simply as a catalyst
A real ritual will be an accurate equation that catalyzes you into the dimension of "magic" etc...
Spontaneity and ritual are different means to different ends...
I dont understand why they are versus each other in your thoughts though...
If magic is part of nature, then it coexists with law, there for obviously a ritual would be a logical approach to magic, or rather rituals could have been made by certain extensive observations of magic itself through synchronicity, then once experienced, passed down to others. Synchronicity itself may just be interferences with the law of magic, or time itself, making it a ritual, depending on the steps that created that "synchronicity."
Ritual is just another means of creating, or channeling "magic" that may not be obtainable through simply willing it.
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Kickle
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Re: Magic -- Spontaneity vs Ritual [Re: TeamAmerica]
#10783564 - 08/02/09 12:18 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
I dont understand why they are versus each other in your thoughts though...
Due to matters of trust. Do you trust yourself, as a magical being? That you yourself ARE magic, no tools or circles needed?
This is why I compared to gravity. We needn't have studied the law of gravity, for it to exist. Even when we weren't aware of it, we still utilized it unknowingly.
What has the knowledge gained us?
In the end, I have a similar line of belief to that of jivJan, although I'm coming into a phase of questioning that. It should be interesting to see where it leads
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
Edited by Kickle (08/02/09 12:21 AM)
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Magic -- Spontaneity vs Ritual [Re: Kickle]
#10793550 - 08/03/09 05:08 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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“These metaphysics of magicians, And necromantic books are heavenly; Lines, circles, letters, characters. Ay, these are those that Faustus most desires.” - Christopher Marlowe, The Tragedie of Doctor Faustus (B text) Act 1.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Kickle
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suggesting that man can fall prey to demonic forces, and the rituals are more for divine protection than anything?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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The D Void
i'm a little nutz

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Re: Magic -- Spontaneity vs Ritual [Re: Kickle]
#13508059 - 11/19/10 08:15 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think that prehaps the reason for ritual in the use Of magic is so that we are clear in our intention and To provide us with a focus point so as not to loose Concentration and petenially disrupt the flow of magic.
-------------------- "Once you have flown, you shall forever look to the sky, for there you have been, there you long to return" De Vinci
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Kickle
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Re: Magic -- Spontaneity vs Ritual [Re: The D Void]
#13508380 - 11/19/10 09:47 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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nice bump
I wonder, is intention necessary for magic? Or only necessary for control? Can letting go, be magical?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Taco Chef
I found dead John Cheever



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Re: Magic -- Spontaneity vs Ritual [Re: Kickle]
#13509067 - 11/19/10 12:17 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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without intention, there is no magick, there may be trance, but not directed result
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Kickle
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Re: Magic -- Spontaneity vs Ritual [Re: Taco Chef]
#13509083 - 11/19/10 12:19 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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What makes you say that? Do things stop happening when you stop intending? Or is it only magic that disappears?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Taco Chef
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Re: Magic -- Spontaneity vs Ritual [Re: Kickle]
#13509189 - 11/19/10 12:36 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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magick is causing change to happen in conformity with will
give an example of magick without intent...
letting go can be magick, but letting go is an intent
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Kickle
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Re: Magic -- Spontaneity vs Ritual [Re: Taco Chef]
#13509213 - 11/19/10 12:44 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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letting go is not intent, because intending to let go is grabbing. You can't release by trying to grab.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Taco Chef
I found dead John Cheever



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Re: Magic -- Spontaneity vs Ritual [Re: Kickle]
#13509257 - 11/19/10 12:53 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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at this point i have to assume you're either being glib just for fun's sake, or you need to define your terms for us.
how is intending to let go grabbing? grabbing what? how is intent 'grabbing'?
release? i intend to release my attachment to "X". what am i grabbing there?
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c0sm0nautt

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Re: Magic -- Spontaneity vs Ritual [Re: Kickle] 1
#13509310 - 11/19/10 01:04 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: letting go is not intent, because intending to let go is grabbing. You can't release by trying to grab.
By letting go you allow magic to flow through you. It's about ceasing control.
I think to passage is fitting:
Quote:
Align your own will with divine will and your Essence Self. Be transparent, innocently allowing magic to come through you rather than needing to create it. Open to heart-knowing and limitless possibilties.
White Wizard is a tool of the light, a conduit for the work of Spirit. A wise magician is spontaneous and transparent, allowing magic to come in rather than trying to control it or make it happen. A magician dances the dance of love through offering gifts of freedom to others. This is real magic. Freed from the need to use power to manipulate or control, a magician uses wisdom to manifest liberation and love.
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Kickle
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Re: Magic -- Spontaneity vs Ritual [Re: Taco Chef]
#13510106 - 11/19/10 03:25 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
novumorganum said: at this point i have to assume you're either being glib just for fun's sake, or you need to define your terms for us.
how is intending to let go grabbing? grabbing what? how is intent 'grabbing'?
release? i intend to release my attachment to "X". what am i grabbing there?
Sorry, it was poor word choice on my part. But perhaps this will illustrate better. Can one let go of intention by intending to let go?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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retrospect
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Re: Magic -- Spontaneity vs Ritual [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#13513114 - 11/20/10 05:15 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
c0sm0nautt said:
Quote:
Align your own will with divine will and your Essence Self. Be transparent, innocently allowing magic to come through you rather than needing to create it.
Interesting thread, yes I would say there lies the difference between self-will and thy will.
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