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InvisibleChespirito
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Organic Food
    #10761614 - 07/29/09 12:37 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

'Organic has no health benefits'

Organic food is no healthier than ordinary food, a large independent review has concluded.

There is little difference in nutritional value and no evidence of any extra health benefits from eating organic produce, UK researchers found.

The Food Standards Agency who commissioned the report said the findings would help people make an "informed choice".

But the Soil Association criticised the study and called for better research.

Researchers from the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine looked at all the evidence on nutrition and health benefits from the past 50 years.

Among the 55 of 162 studies that were included in the final analysis, there were a small number of differences in nutrition between organic and conventionally produced food but not large enough to be of any public health relevance, said study leader Dr Alan Dangour.

Overall the report, which is published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, found no differences in most nutrients in organically or conventionally grown crops, including in vitamin C, calcium, and iron.

The same was true for studies looking at meat, dairy and eggs.

Differences that were detected, for example in levels of nitrogen and phosphorus, were most likely to be due to differences in fertilizer use and ripeness at harvest and are unlikely to provide any health benefit, the report concluded.

Gill Fine, FSA director of consumer choice and dietary health, said: "Ensuring people have accurate information is absolutely essential in allowing us all to make informed choices about the food we eat.

"This study does not mean that people should not eat organic food.

"What it shows is that there is little, if any, nutritional difference between organic and conventionally produced food and that there is no evidence of additional health benefits from eating organic food."

She added that the FSA was neither pro nor anti organic food and recognised there were many reasons why people choose to eat organic, including animal welfare or environmental concerns.

Dr Dangour, said: "Our review indicates that there is currently no evidence to support the selection of organically over conventionally produced foods on the basis of nutritional superiority."

He added that better quality studies were needed.

Peter Melchett, policy director at the Soil Association said they were disappointed with the conclusions.

"The review rejected almost all of the existing studies of comparisons between organic and non-organic nutritional differences.

"Although the researchers say that the differences between organic and non-organic food are not 'important', due to the relatively few studies, they report in their analysis that there are higher levels of beneficial nutrients in organic compared to non-organic foods.

"Without large-scale, longitudinal research it is difficult to come to far-reaching clear conclusions on this, which was acknowledged by the authors of the FSA review.

"Also, there is not sufficient research on the long-term effects of pesticides on human health," he added.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8174482.stm


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Invisiblelegallyhomeless
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Re: Organic Food [Re: Chespirito]
    #10762412 - 07/29/09 03:01 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Chemicals are bad. Theres no getting past that.


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InvisibleChespirito
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Re: Organic Food [Re: legallyhomeless]
    #10762561 - 07/29/09 03:21 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

If you say so :thumbup:


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InvisibleExistence
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Re: Organic Food [Re: Chespirito]
    #10762728 - 07/29/09 03:47 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I don't like the antibiotics and hormones in my chicken and cow products.


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Offlinepmb
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Re: Organic Food [Re: Existence]
    #10762736 - 07/29/09 03:49 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Existence said:
I don't like the antibiotics and hormones in my chicken and cow products.




Why not?


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InvisibleExistence
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Re: Organic Food [Re: pmb]
    #10762821 - 07/29/09 04:04 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

:shrug: cause.


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Invisiblelegallyhomeless
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Re: Organic Food [Re: Existence]
    #10763081 - 07/29/09 04:45 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Existence said:
I don't like the antibiotics and hormones in my chicken and cow products.




This is why 12 year old girls have huge boobs


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OfflineDropScience
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Re: Organic Food [Re: legallyhomeless]
    #10763247 - 07/29/09 05:10 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Shocker: Medical Research Frequently Bogus

http://www.naturalnews.com/026573_medical_research_drugs_cancer.html

Charges of fake research hit new high

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8474936/



We all know how the DEA has used the Medical Establishment to misrepresent the effects of certain drugs. Anyone remember the study where they claimed MDMA was dimming the whole brain, only to later find that these bogus claims were the results from methamphetamine mislabled as mdma.

It's no big surprise that agribuisness would do just the same, and has been doing for quite some time. They fund actually MANY such studies, as a matter to PICK AND CHOOSE what they present to the american public. This is why we see studies that suggest absurd results such as MERCURY IS NOW GOOD FOR THE BRIAN.. If you believe that nonsense, why I've got some lead based fruitjuice I've got to sell you..


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InvisibleChespirito
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Re: Organic Food [Re: DropScience]
    #10763369 - 07/29/09 05:33 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Nice redirection there, unfortunately for you its a logical fallacy, also this study was done in the UK.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Organic Food [Re: Chespirito]
    #10763796 - 07/29/09 06:54 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

'Organic' for the loss.  Its a silly bandwagon people jump on; they want organic to be healthier so they believe organic is healthier.


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InvisibleChespirito
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Re: Organic Food [Re: DieCommie]
    #10763849 - 07/29/09 07:03 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Yes I agree.  Although truthfully I do wonder if organic meats, particularly liver, is more safe.  This study as far as I can tell did not go into that (except for a single line in the article).  Id love to find out its no better however.


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InvisibleExistence
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Re: Organic Food [Re: Chespirito]
    #10764167 - 07/29/09 08:03 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Chespirito said:
'Organic has no health benefits'

blah blah blah

"Also, there is not sufficient research on the long-term effects of pesticides on human health," he added.





You don't see anything wrong with this picture? You can't imagine that pesticides might have an effect on human health?

I think this article is pointless. Pesticides, antibiotics and hormones are the reasons I eat organic. All of these points are not addressed in the study, it looked only at nutritional differences.


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InvisibleChespirito
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Re: Organic Food [Re: Existence]
    #10764213 - 07/29/09 08:14 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Yes that point was indeed said by the member of the organization designed to promote organic food (the Soil Association).  I'm not sure of the harm of pesticides, though I think that area of research has a body of work that is quite large.  We've been using pesticides for a long time and I know of numerous pesticides that were banned because of research done on them.  The ones we use now have passed those tests, that said Id have to investigate further to find recent studies.

This study is focusing on nutritional differences as you will hear a lot of times people talk about organic food as being notably higher in nutrition.  My roommate was a big user of that


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InvisibleExistence
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Re: Organic Food [Re: Chespirito]
    #10764273 - 07/29/09 08:27 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

There is a list of the top twelve items that have the most pesticides. I try and get the organic varieties of those, mainly apples and bell peppers. That and I get hormone and antibiotic free chicken. The rest I don't care so much.

You have to think about the environment also.


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OfflinePDU
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Re: Organic Food [Re: Existence]
    #10765670 - 07/30/09 12:33 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

i buy organic when i can, because it is a more sustainable farming method + i would rather my money gets to people who care about the food they produce and the earth we live on, rather than monsanto or some such giant chemical co who is trying exterminate "natural." +

Organic tastes better alot of the time, and is probably grown closer to local...


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OfflinePDU
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Re: Organic Food [Re: PDU]
    #10765673 - 07/30/09 12:34 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Infact, not for one second have i thought of organic food as more nutrition dense, only as non organic food as chemically contaminated. Maybe that's how we should be looking at this...


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Offlinedstark
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Re: Organic Food [Re: legallyhomeless]
    #10766623 - 07/30/09 06:03 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

legallyhomeless said:
Quote:

Existence said:
I don't like the antibiotics and hormones in my chicken and cow products.




This is why 12 year old girls have huge boobs




Lol man :lol:
Indeed, also they gives chicken hormones so they will produce much more fat and over feed them (same with ducks)


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OfflineHypercube
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Re: Organic Food [Re: dstark]
    #10766753 - 07/30/09 06:39 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Organic farming methods don't create nearly as much food as farming done with fertilizers and pest and weed control measures.  Personally, I like cheap and available food, and so do many poor people.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Organic Food [Re: Hypercube]
    #10767708 - 07/30/09 11:06 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Hypercube said:
Organic farming methods don't create nearly as much food as farming done with fertilizers and pest and weed control measures.  Personally, I like cheap and available food, and so do many poor people.




:thumbup:  The more food we can get per acre the cheaper food is and the less old growth habitat needs to be cleared away for farmland.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Organic Food [Re: PDU]
    #10768644 - 07/30/09 01:37 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PDU said:
Infact, not for one second have i thought of organic food as more nutrition dense, only as non organic food as chemically contaminated. Maybe that's how we should be looking at this...



Exactly.  It's not about organic food containing more nutrients.  It's about what it doesn't contain.  Not to mention that it's more sustainable for the environment.  Also, it tastes better.


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InvisibleChespirito
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Re: Organic Food [Re: Silversoul]
    #10769285 - 07/30/09 03:19 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I wonder if you people could pass a blind taste testing


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OfflineAndre Nickatina
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Re: Organic Food [Re: Chespirito]
    #10770765 - 07/30/09 08:13 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Study didn't test micro nutrients, says nothing about pesticide residue and is probably funded by the factory farms. Ontop of that this study means absolutey nothing to people who buy soley from the farmers market, nothing compares to fresh food that you know has been grown chemical free.


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Invisiblesoochi
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Re: Organic Food [Re: Chespirito]
    #10770964 - 07/30/09 08:57 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I never bought organic food for its proposed nutrient superiority. I buy them because of flavor, and yes I can tell the difference between a conventional peach and an organic one by taste. And you know, most things grown by local farmers out here in VA are organic but most of them cannot afford the ridiculous fees associated with getting their land and products certified by the OAI. It's also nice to know that what your buying has been genetically modified or grown with pesticides. Most of the produce in this country is geared towards long distance travel stability, and mass quantity output per acre.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Organic Food [Re: Chespirito]
    #10770973 - 07/30/09 08:59 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Chespirito said:
I wonder if you people could pass a blind taste testing



It's been done.  People consistently prefer the taste of organic over non-organic food.


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InvisibleChespirito
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Re: Organic Food [Re: Silversoul]
    #10771324 - 07/30/09 10:11 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Alright, Ill give it a go at some point.  My roommate used to buy all organic and frankly I never noticed a difference.  Im going to put this one under the power of suggestion, however ill wait for final judgment until I get the ball rolling on this test.


As for micronutrients, dont make me fucking laugh


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Organic Food [Re: Chespirito]
    #10771392 - 07/30/09 10:26 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Chespirito said:
Alright, Ill give it a go at some point.  My roommate used to buy all organic and frankly I never noticed a difference.  Im going to put this one under the power of suggestion, however ill wait for final judgment until I get the ball rolling on this test.



It's more noticeable in some foods than others, but I dare you to try organic milk alongside regular milk and tell me you don't notice a difference.  Same goes for eggs.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Organic Food [Re: Silversoul]
    #10772208 - 07/31/09 01:28 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

A problem I have with alot of organic proponents is the obvious blind faith aspect of it.  Its seems to stem from a sort of nature worship.  They believe that every food is better if it conforms to their arbitrary criteria of 'organic'.  Such blanket statements are rarely true.  Im sure sometimes organic is more healthy, sustainable and tasty and sometimes its not.  Its not reasonable to just make a blanket statement based off of a few examples.  Each farming technique should be investigated on its own and judged according, regardless of if it's organic or not.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Organic Food [Re: DieCommie]
    #10772248 - 07/31/09 01:43 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Blind faith is a problem with a lot of movements, including movements I support.  One problem with what the organic movement has become is that the USDA continues to lower the standards of what counts as organic.  Another is that many so-called organic farmers have lost touch with the permaculture roots of the movement.  Part of the original idea of organic agriculture was that the farm would produce everything it needed to sustain itself -- essentially the idea behind permaculture.  Instead, many "organic" farmers are more than happy to import products for their farm, so long as they're all "natural."


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Organic Food [Re: Silversoul]
    #10772313 - 07/31/09 01:58 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Part of the original idea of organic agriculture was that the farm would produce everything it needed to sustain itself -- essentially the idea behind permaculture.




See to me that just seems like anti-trade, isolationist politics disguised as environmentalism and health.  The organic movement is so confounded with other unrelated political ideology it losses me.

If in the case studies show a particular non-organic technique is bad Ill accept that.  If in the case some study shows an organic technique is better Ill accept that.  If the opposite is shown, Ill go with that info.  I see no reason to extrapolate beyond individual studies.


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OfflineAndre Nickatina
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Re: Organic Food [Re: DieCommie]
    #10773172 - 07/31/09 08:14 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Chespirito said:


As for micronutrients, dont make me fucking laugh




Laugh about what??

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Blind faith is a problem with a lot of movements




This is why you shouldn't buy just organic but you should buy local from the farmers market and ask the farmer how they run there farm. At the santa monica farmers market they actually have a notebook that explains how each stands farm works (what fertilizer they use, how they controll pest etc. ). The stuff from the store you have no idea how old it is, where it came from, how it was grown etc. its also usually about double the price at the store and the produce doesn't even compare in taste. Buy local! :smile:



Quote:

Qubit said:

If in the case studies show a particular non-organic technique is bad Ill accept that.  If in the case some study shows an organic technique is better Ill accept that.  If the opposite is shown, Ill go with that info.  I see no reason to extrapolate beyond individual studies.




Chemical fertilizers and pesticides will never ever compare to green compost, beneficial bacteria ad smart planting. The only reason they use that bullshit is because people are lazy fucks


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Organic Food [Re: Existence]
    #10773425 - 07/31/09 09:18 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Existence said:
I don't like the antibiotics and hormones in my chicken and cow products.




I'd like to find the chicken that doesn't have some hormones in it :lol:

Fact: all meat - organic or otherwise - contains hormones because the animals the meat came from naturally had some hormones in their blood.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Organic Food [Re: legallyhomeless]
    #10773450 - 07/31/09 09:22 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

legallyhomeless said:
Quote:

Existence said:
I don't like the antibiotics and hormones in my chicken and cow products.




This is why 12 year old girls have huge boobs




In europe and here in canada, where rBGH was banned, we are still showing girls that start puberty sooner.

Nobody talks about the weight of these children! A girls body will not begin puberty until she has enough fat. This is the reason so many young girls who are gymnasts don't start puberty until they quit training all the time.

This was all on Penn and Teller last night...


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But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Organic Food [Re: PDU]
    #10773472 - 07/31/09 09:25 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PDU said:
Organic tastes better alot of the time




I would have thought so, too...but last night on Penn and Teller they had taste tests of random people on the street. Something like 80% of them chose the regular fruits over the organic. When asked (before being told) why they liked it...they mostly said it was because it was organic.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlinedstark
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Re: Organic Food [Re: trendal]
    #10773575 - 07/31/09 09:42 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Quote:

PDU said:
Organic tastes better alot of the time




I would have thought so, too...but last night on Penn and Teller they had taste tests of random people on the street. Something like 80% of them chose the regular fruits over the organic. When asked (before being told) why they liked it...they mostly said it was because it was organic.



Not organic food in most cases has things people put in there, in factories etc. that makes the taste of fruit or whatever much stronger, sweeter and so on...


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Organic Food [Re: dstark]
    #10773716 - 07/31/09 10:06 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

that makes the taste of fruit or whatever much stronger, sweeter and so on...

So organic food doesn't taste better than regular food?

Also, I'd like to know what factory is injecting my fruit with shit :rolleyes:

(I'm joking...I doubt any factory can be found that has "things people put in there", with respect to fruit)


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But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Organic Food [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10774602 - 07/31/09 12:52 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Andre Nickatina said:
Chemical fertilizers and pesticides will never ever compare to green compost, beneficial bacteria ad smart planting.




This is the blind faith that turns me off.  You dont know that, no study has ever shown that.  Blanket extreme statements like that are rarely true.  When people make such statements they loose credibility.


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InvisibleChespirito
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Re: Organic Food [Re: dstark]
    #10774761 - 07/31/09 01:21 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

dstark said:
Quote:

trendal said:
Quote:

PDU said:
Organic tastes better alot of the time




I would have thought so, too...but last night on Penn and Teller they had taste tests of random people on the street. Something like 80% of them chose the regular fruits over the organic. When asked (before being told) why they liked it...they mostly said it was because it was organic.



Not organic food in most cases has things people put in there, in factories etc. that makes the taste of fruit or whatever much stronger, sweeter and so on...




:rofl2:


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OfflineAndre Nickatina
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Re: Organic Food [Re: DieCommie]
    #10778765 - 08/01/09 06:06 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Qubit said:
Quote:

Andre Nickatina said:
Chemical fertilizers and pesticides will never ever compare to green compost, beneficial bacteria ad smart planting.




This is the blind faith that turns me off.  You dont know that, no study has ever shown that.  Blanket extreme statements like that are rarely true.  When people make such statements they loose credibility.




Your a moron, its not blind faith. I've seen it done both ways, shit i've done it both ways. Chemical fertilizers do not compare to billions and billions of beneficial bacteria its a fact, if you don't believe me grow 2 plants one with miracle grow and one with compost and Microbial teas. I've done it and the organic plants are not only better but they resist pest and disease way better. Why do you think they have to use so many pesticides on conventional produce? Because the plants are too weak and malnourished to defend themselves. Ontop of this most commercial fertilizers do not contain micronutrients so most conventional produce is seriously lacking in that department.


Maybe you should stop blindly bashing people for no reason, you clearly have never farmed or probably grow anything for that matter in your whole life. Until you do your opinion means very little


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Organic Food [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10779594 - 08/01/09 11:35 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Chemical fertilizers do not compare to billions and billions of beneficial bacteria its a fact, if you don't believe me grow 2 plants one with miracle grow and one with compost and Microbial teas.




I dont base my beliefs off of samples sizes that small.  :shrug:


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Organic Food [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10780245 - 08/01/09 01:42 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

If what you say is so obviously true, then I'm sure you can provide research to back it up outside of your anecdotal experiences?

Also, is it really necessary to start with the childish name calling?


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OfflineHypercube
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Re: Organic Food [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10784340 - 08/02/09 07:47 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Quote:

PDU said:
Organic tastes better alot of the time




I would have thought so, too...but last night on Penn and Teller they had taste tests of random people on the street. Something like 80% of them chose the regular fruits over the organic. When asked (before being told) why they liked it...they mostly said it was because it was organic.




The banana bit was golden.  Love that show.

Quote:

Andre Nickatina said:
Quote:

Qubit said:
Quote:

Andre Nickatina said:
Chemical fertilizers and pesticides will never ever compare to green compost, beneficial bacteria ad smart planting.




This is the blind faith that turns me off.  You dont know that, no study has ever shown that.  Blanket extreme statements like that are rarely true.  When people make such statements they loose credibility.




Your a moron, its not blind faith. I've seen it done both ways, shit i've done it both ways. Chemical fertilizers do not compare to billions and billions of beneficial bacteria its a fact, if you don't believe me grow 2 plants one with miracle grow and one with compost and Microbial teas. I've done it and the organic plants are not only better but they resist pest and disease way better. Why do you think they have to use so many pesticides on conventional produce? Because the plants are too weak and malnourished to defend themselves. Ontop of this most commercial fertilizers do not contain micronutrients so most conventional produce is seriously lacking in that department.


Maybe you should stop blindly bashing people for no reason, you clearly have never farmed or probably grow anything for that matter in your whole life. Until you do your opinion means very little




If you found a way to increase conventional crop production using microbes instead of fertilizers without it costing the farmer absurd amounts of money, you would already be stinking rich.  Are these methods of production really feasible at a large scale?


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OfflineAndre Nickatina
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Re: Organic Food [Re: Hypercube]
    #10784367 - 08/02/09 07:58 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Hypercube said:


  Are these methods of production really feasible at a large scale?




What do you think people did before chemical fertilizers and pesticides existed?(both of which are relatively new). How could i make money on somthing thats already free? Organic produce might take slightly longer to produce, which it really doesn't once you have your system down, but it doesn't leave the land a barren wasteland or wash highly toxic neurotoxins into our water supply. Conventional produce is good for one thing, mass mono cropping which is stupid. Permaculture and sustainability are gonna be the future, we can only keep up these unsustainable habits for so long


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Re: Organic Food [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10784595 - 08/02/09 09:17 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)



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Re: Organic Food [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10785370 - 08/02/09 12:04 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

What do you think people did before chemical fertilizers and pesticides existed?




They lived short brutal lives where starvation was always one season away if crops failed.

Another thing I notice here is the assumption that organic = sustainability (and the inference that nonorganic = unsustainable).  More baseless blanket statements...  If a farming method is unsustainable lets debate that in its own right - organic has nothing to do with it.


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Re: Organic Food [Re: DieCommie]
    #10785444 - 08/02/09 12:17 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

They lived short brutal lives where starvation was always one season away if crops failed.




Not if they lived in tropical climates like our species is meant too.

Conventional farming methods are unsustainable, they erode the land, pollute it with dangerous chemicals and cause new strains of viruses to manifest. There are only three methods of farming organic, conventional and a mixture of the two. Organic practices that focus on composting, crop rotations and soil health are without a doubt as sustainable as it gets. If you read the articles i posted you would also find out they are more productive and cost effective then conventional farming

Let me just take a wild guess, You've never grown anything in your life?


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Re: Organic Food [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10785539 - 08/02/09 12:31 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Not if they lived in tropical climates like our species is meant too.




Our species isnt meant to do anything, this is just more of your faith.  (which I can tolerate in others but I utterly reject faith in my own belief system)





Quote:

Let me just take a wild guess, You've never grown anything in your life?




You couldnt be more wrong.  One side of my family are farmers and avid gardeners and I very much enjoy all aspects of it.  (not that its relevant or necessary to have an opinion on this topic)


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Re: Organic Food [Re: DieCommie]
    #10785810 - 08/02/09 01:28 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Qubit said:
Quote:

Not if they lived in tropical climates like our species is meant too.




Our species isnt meant to do anything, this is just more of your faith.  (which I can tolerate in others but I utterly reject faith in my own belief system)





Its not faith, its science. Humans are tropical primates, look it up


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Re: Organic Food [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10786032 - 08/02/09 02:06 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Humans are adaptive creatures. They aren't "meant" to be anywhere. Regardless of your absurd assertions, the Cradle of Civilization is hardly tropical.


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Re: Organic Food [Re: Redstorm]
    #10786092 - 08/02/09 02:18 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Humans are adaptive creatures. They aren't "meant" to be anywhere. Regardless of your absurd assertions, the Cradle of Civilization is hardly tropical.




Humans evolved from apes in the eastern african region, this region used to be tropical/sub-tropical. Am i missing something? No doubt humans are adaptive creatures, still does not change the fact we are naked tropical primates


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Re: Organic Food [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10786120 - 08/02/09 02:24 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Apes are not people. Where apes lived is hardly relevant to some absurd value-laden statement about where people are "supposed" to live. Human should live where they can prosper.


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Re: Organic Food [Re: Redstorm]
    #10786412 - 08/02/09 03:28 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

There was a european study a few years back that took two identical farms side by side and one was organic and one conventional.  They found more antioxidants in the organic produce and especially, milk!

Organic milk had 60% more antioxidants than its conventional counterpart.

And yes, organic milk has a much nicer taste than conventional.  But raw milk would be the best.


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Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

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Re: Organic Food [Re: Cannashroom]
    #10786659 - 08/02/09 04:02 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Also, lots of "Organic" foods in the US and other places aren't really organic in the best sense.

A true organic farm is very diverse, and uses good methods to promote healthy soil.  The organic regulations say nothing about biodiversity on farms, which is a big part of a true return to sustainable living and farming.

The mineral content of food is related to the soil.  Good organic practices will help restore the soil and it will have more minerals, but much of the corporate factory farm "organic" foods are grown on depleted soil.


--------------------
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This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

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Re: Organic Food [Re: Cannashroom]
    #10791918 - 08/03/09 12:28 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

How does one investigate the "organic-ness" and farming methods used to grow their food?

Lets use hempoilcanada.com and my local farmers market as examples, what sorts of questions would i ask, to find out if they use "sustainable" farming practices.


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Re: Organic Food [Re: PDU]
    #10794129 - 08/03/09 06:53 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PDU said:
How does one investigate the "organic-ness" and farming methods used to grow their food?

Lets use hempoilcanada.com and my local farmers market as examples, what sorts of questions would i ask, to find out if they use "sustainable" farming practices.




The first question you should ask if there No Spray, this means they don't use any sort of pesticide or herbicide. Other good questions include types of fertilizer they use, where there water comes from and how big the farm is


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Re: Organic Food [Re: Silversoul]
    #10814099 - 08/06/09 08:32 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Organic.

In my opinion it is a "rebellious" way for otherwise normal people to express their discontent with modern industrial society and all of its ghastly features, while simultaneously obtaining a shopper's high.

It's also a marketing ploy for a plethora of companies who are beginning to realize there are a lot of pretentious and rich fucks who are dying to drop some green to make the world more "green".

It gives a sense of health and freedom in your purchase. It's half pseudo-science, half consumerism, half trend.

I like this:

"The problem with organic produce is that there’s nothing right with it, either.

The word organic, literally, simply means carbon-based, a definition that would encompass every crop imaginable, up to and including those grown in Halliburton-branded fields of nuclear waste."

Article Link: http://www.the-peak.ca/article/4403



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Re: Organic Food [Re: Arden]
    #10819642 - 08/07/09 07:22 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Arden said:
Organic.

It's half pseudo-science, half consumerism, half trend.





That's some interesting math you have.

I like the people here that think eating chemicals is ok for their bodies. Give leaves more delicious food for the rest of us


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Re: Organic Food [Re: legallyhomeless]
    #10819738 - 08/07/09 07:46 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

That's some interesting math you have.





Math involves operators, my division was purely explanatory. I was using language to make a statement. But would it change my point if I had used 1/3? No.

Quote:

I like the people here that think eating chemicals is ok for their bodies.




Putting dangerous chemicals into your bodily is obviously unhealthy, but:

The opposite of Organic™® food is not chemical food.


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Re: Organic Food [Re: legallyhomeless]
    #10822720 - 08/08/09 01:11 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

legallyhomeless said:
I like the people here that think eating chemicals is ok for their bodies.




I like how people on a drug message board speak ill of chemicals.  I dont think you even know what a chemical is...


Making gross generalizations about 'chemicals' betrays your ignorance.  If there is a specific chemical you have an issue with then lets discuss its merits and pitfalls.  Assuming all man made chemicals are bad and all 'nature' made chemicals are good is blind faith and part of the problem.


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Re: Organic Food [Re: DieCommie]
    #10823478 - 08/08/09 03:37 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

If there is a specific chemical you have an issue with then lets discuss its merits and pitfalls.  Assuming all man made chemicals are bad and all 'nature' made chemicals are good is blind faith and part of the problem.




Good point.


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Re: Organic Food [Re: Arden]
    #10827852 - 08/09/09 01:41 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Not only are we contaminating groundwater, soils, and foods with petrochemicals, but the only reason it is "cheap" is because conventional industrial food production is highly subsidized by the government.  Those farmers are just scraping by, too, since they need to buy all those petrochemicals for pesticide, herbicide, and fertilizer, genetically modified seed they can't save for themselves, and the newest machines that get marketed to them.

Conventional farming also undercuts foreign food marts because the government spends massive amounts in farm subsidies to lower our cost of produce.  That means farmers who used to get by in other countries can't afford to keep growing food and get put out of business.  It also means our unlabeled, genetically modified foods end up getting planted and mixing genetics with historically land-race varieties of food crops.

Meat is a whole separate ballpark, too.  Not only are there hormones, antibiotics, cruel, festering conditions, severe pollution via methane gas and excrement, but the cows usually eat corn which they do not naturally eat.  Cows don't need antibiotics and hormones to survive - it's only because we pen them up so close and in such squalid conditions that disease spreads.  Not even a blade of grass survives where most of our meat comes from - the cow's natural diet.  There is a definite difference in taste and texture between a grass-fed and corn-fed cow.  Americans demand meat like it's somehow their birthright akin to freedom of speech and the right to bear arms.  It's absolutely heinous that our food comes from concentration camps that the public doesn't see, let alone understand, and all so that even poor people eat like kings at McDonalds where they serve cheap, subsidized, genetically modified meat that is raised on cheap, subsidized, genetically modified corn.  Not only is the meat made of corn (part of the "meat" is also made up of processed corn products like corn syrup), but the sodas are made of corn and the fries are cooked in corn. 

...I could keep going on but I'd rather just say Penn and Teller are ridiculous and not at all an authority on anything.  All they know how to do is complain.  Conventional farming is not sustainable and cannot stand the test of time - they rely almost entirely on petrochemicals.  It has been less than a century since our conventional farming system arose, so once there's no more cheap oil, what should the farmers do?  Organic farming is the only sustainable way to grow our food and we need people to remember how to grow food the natural way.


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Re: Organic Food [Re: PoC]
    #10828000 - 08/09/09 02:16 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I didn't read your entire post, just skimming though, but this has caught my attention:

Quote:

Cows don't need antibiotics and hormones to survive - it's only because we pen them up so close and in such squalid conditions that disease spreads.




Couldn't the same thing be said about humans?
People don't need antibiotics until they... need them, until they get a bacteria that gets killed with antibiotics. Of course, both people and cows, will take antibiotics when the situation will require.


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Re: Organic Food [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10828029 - 08/09/09 02:21 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

...and your point is?  We're not eating humans and the health of human living situations isn't really the topic here.  It's also not as if every one of us is taking in massive amounts of antibiotics because there's thirty people living in every house who are all shitting everywhere.


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Re: Organic Food [Re: PoC]
    #10828418 - 08/09/09 03:43 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

My point it that it doesn't make sense to say that cows don't need antibiotics, because it is like saying that humans don't need them.
I was aware of the fact that you weren't talking about eating humans, but I can't see how this would make my point invalid. However, I did think that part of the discussion was the health of humans, and how eating can affect their health. In this light, I was wondering why you would say that cows don't need antibiotics, and that it is only because of how close they are to each other and the unsanitary conditions. Would you prefer if cows weren't given antibiotics?
Note that I am not debating the rest of your post, and actually I think you're right and I think it's stupid to raise cows in such conditions, but at the same time I don't think it's necessary to look for false arguments, like saying that cows don't need antibiotics.


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Re: Organic Food [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10829940 - 08/09/09 08:51 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Would you contend that the close quarters and unsanitary conditions of cows isn't the main reason for the need for antibiotics?  I'm saying that for humans, while we use antibiotics, it is the exception, not the rule that we need them.  In conventional farming, this is certainly not the case because under such disgusting conditions - including improper diet, lack of exercise, and unsatisfactory environment - an unreasonable amount of cows suffer from infections and other sickly ailments.  Not only are they exposed to unnecessary amounts of antibiotics - something that mostly could be prevented by a more proper environment - but they are generally unhealthy...then we treat them with antibiotics to keep them alive and then eat them.

I stick by my initial statement that cows don't need antibiotics to survive.  Farmers, after all, herded cattle for centuries before antibiotics.  In this more natural farming method, cows indeed ate grass and had a proper environment and some still died from infection and illness.  Under these conditions I don't think I would even be opposed to the proper application of antibiotics to save a few struggling cows.  It's the broad and unthoughtful application of antibiotics and the fact that antibiotics have become requisite to the conventional system of farming that makes it such an issue to me.


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Re: Organic Food [Re: PoC]
    #10831816 - 08/10/09 06:38 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Re: GMOs
I would like to see some refereed literature that proves that GMOs are in the least bit dangerous or unhealthy.  The fact remains that modern methods of genetic engineering are safer and more predictable than any other form of plant breeding in the past.

Re: Cow conditions
I don't doubt that some livestock is kept in squalid conditions.  But I would argue that that is the fault of the idiot farmer that doesn't realize that keeping better conditions for his cows will save him money.  Any farmer who knows his shit is gonna keep a decently clean operation.  I have also yet to see any cow on a farm that doesn't eat grass. :smirk:


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Re: Organic Food [Re: Chespirito]
    #10831868 - 08/10/09 07:14 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Sounds like Monsanto propaganda.


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Re: Organic Food [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10833211 - 08/10/09 01:53 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
because it is like saying that humans don't need them.






Humans don't need antibiotics, neither do wild animals.


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Re: Organic Food [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10833751 - 08/10/09 03:30 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Andre Nickatina said:

Humans don't need antibiotics, neither do wild animals.




Nobody NEEDS organic food either.  So what's your point?

Just because SOME individuals would be fine without antibiotics their entire lives, does not give just cause for not using those compounds to save the lives of others, or to improve livestock survival rates.

Organic ideology hinges on the precept that whatever technology we come up with is inherently bad.  However, the value of a technology largely lies in how it is used.  If I were to spray pesticides at a rate 10000 times the recommended level on a field, there may be deleterious consequences, but that is not a good argument against the use of such a chemical.

When it comes down to it, in an idealized chemical-free and organic playground where there are 2 cows per ha of pasture and science is barred from improving upon agriculture, there are few people who could afford to live.  If you really want to see such a world come about, I challenge you to accept the consequences.


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Re: Organic Food [Re: Hypercube]
    #10835000 - 08/10/09 06:30 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Hypercube said:
Re: GMOs
I would like to see some refereed literature that proves that GMOs are in the least bit dangerous or unhealthy.  The fact remains that modern methods of genetic engineering are safer and more predictable than any other form of plant breeding in the past.

Re: Cow conditions
I don't doubt that some livestock is kept in squalid conditions.  But I would argue that that is the fault of the idiot farmer that doesn't realize that keeping better conditions for his cows will save him money.  Any farmer who knows his shit is gonna keep a decently clean operation.  I have also yet to see any cow on a farm that doesn't eat grass. :smirk:




The creation of GMOs is by no means a precise science based upon firm understanding of genetics.  We've learned that we can splice genetics from some organisms into others, but it's not as if there's some guru out there that knows how genes truly work.  We've barely been able to map out the human genome so far, hitting the tip of the iceberg of genetic manipulation and translation.  GMOs are just a lot of trial and error, and to let those frankenstein genetics into the wild without proper understanding is just plain stupid.  Not only is contamination of wild and landrace populations with genetically modified genes a tragedy, but companies have been allowed to patent those genes and can unjustly take claim to any plants with their genetics inside of them.  If you want to talk about antibiotics, companies regularly insert antibiotics into the genes of GMO crops so they can identify the mature plant cells as originating from their company.  The effects of GMOs is also very difficult to trace since companies refuse to allow labelling of genetically modified foods.  It's not just a matter of the produce isle and organic vs conventional - GMO crops are used in a large chunk of popular packaged goods such as chips, taco shells, frozen foods, and canned foods.  The various processed forms of food such as high fructose corn syrup, dextrose, and a lot of those bizarre words on ingredients lists also are likely to be from GMO crops.

I suppose you've never seen any of the factory farms from which a large portion of American meat comes from.  I am most definitely talking about these large-scale operations that keep groceries and fast food chains stocked with cheap meat.

No one's saying there needs to be 2 cows per hectare of pasture or that science somehow is in conflict with organic methods.  You also imply that people couldn't afford to live without meat, which is simply a fallacy.  Not only can people live without meat, but the economic and environmental costs of vegetarian (even pseudo-vegetarian) diets are less than that of carnivorous diets.  We live in a country with plenty of food, but if we didn't have to feed all of our cows, chickens, and pigs exorbitant amounts of food, there would definitely be a lot more to go around and probably for cheaper.  It really comes down to people not knowing what is happening with their food and/or wanting to turn a blind eye to it.  Farmers are putting animals in concentration camp-style quarters, using antibiotics as standard practice, feeding them with government-subsidized corn that is unnatural for them to eat (and often genetically modified), and that's how we get a quarter pound of beef for less than a dollar.

I am not a vegetarian, though I tend to not eat meat too often.  All I'm saying is that we need to have respect for these animals, our nature, and ourselves.  Surely, a quarter pound of animal flesh is worth more than a buck.


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Re: Organic Food [Re: Hypercube]
    #10844227 - 08/12/09 06:41 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Hypercube said:
Quote:

Andre Nickatina said:

Humans don't need antibiotics, neither do wild animals.




Nobody NEEDS organic food either.  So what's your point?






Yes they do, organic produce is an absolute necessity. I'm sorry but maybe you like chemical laden nutrient deficient food but I'll stick to what mother earth intended for me to eat. The government doesn't know what all these pesticides are gonna do to people long term, maybe you don't care but my life is precious and I treat my body with utmost respect.

By the way no one needs antibiotics(or any pill for that matter), even people who are sick. The only thing people truly need is a good diet


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Re: Organic Food [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10845857 - 08/12/09 01:15 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Andre Nickatina said:
I'm sorry but maybe you like chemical laden nutrient deficient food but I'll stick to what mother earth intended for me to eat.



I guess you didn't read the whole point of this post. Organic food has no more nutrients than non-organic


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Re: Organic Food [Re: Chespirito]
    #10846109 - 08/12/09 01:49 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Chespirito said:
"Although the researchers say that the differences between organic and non-organic food are not 'important', due to the relatively few studies, they report in their analysis that there are higher levels of beneficial nutrients in organic compared to non-organic foods.

"Without large-scale, longitudinal research it is difficult to come to far-reaching clear conclusions on this, which was acknowledged by the authors of the FSA review.

"Also, there is not sufficient research on the long-term effects of pesticides on human health," he added.




That, to me, means the answer you just posted isn't as clear as you make it sound.  If you go look at some research on the subject, most of it seems to indicate that we need further research, but that organically grown foods tend to have slightly higher amounts of nutrients and that animals fed organic foods tend to be healthier.

I'll cite an abstract from this article:
International Journal of Food Sciences & Nutrition; Sep2003, Vol. 54 Issue 5, p357, 15p

Quote:

Apparently, one of the primary reasons for purchasing organic food is the perception that it is more nutritious than conventional food. Given the increasing interest towards organic food products, it is imperative to review the existing literature concerning the nutritional value of the produce, and to determine to what extent are consumer expectations met. There are only few well-controlled studies that are capable of making a valid comparison and, therefore, compilation of the results is difficult and generalisation of the conclusions should be made with caution. In spite of these limitations, however, some differences can be identified. Although there is little evidence that organic and conventional foods differ in respect to the concentrations of the various micronutrients (vitamins, minerals and trace elements), there seems to be a slight trend towards higher ascorbic acid content in organically grown leafy vegetables and potatoes. There is also a trend towards lower protein concentration but of higher quality in some organic vegetables and cereal crops. With respect to the rest of the nutrients and the other food groups, existing evidence is inadequate to allow for valid conclusions. Finally, animal feeding experiments indicate that animal health and reproductive performance are slightly improved when they are organically fed. A similar finding has not yet been identified in humans. Several important directions can be highlighted for future research; it seems, however, that despite any differences, a well-balanced diet can equally improve health regardless of its organic or conventional origin.




The article was written in 2003, but there seem to have been few if any real advancements in this debate since.


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