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 trendal
J♠
 
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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 Re: Faith.  [Re: Phluck]
#1073476 - 11/21/02 10:59 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
"I have faith that what I experience is real and not just the figment of a delusional mind."
How do you know that for sure?
If I knew it for sure then it wouldn't be faith anymore, would it? It would be proof. Faith (at least as I see it) is not proof that something exists. It is the concious decision I make to believe that something exists even if I don't have some form of tangible truth. I have faith that electrons exist, yet I have never seen or felt one before.
Hopefully that clears up my point 
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Revelation
ॐ
Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 6,135
Loc: heart cave
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Re: Faith. [Re: Phluck]
#1073619 - 11/21/02 11:55 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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I've never had faith, so I don't know what faith is. Maybe your idea about faith is inacurate? Perhaps faith is the God-given capacity to reach beyond the realm of the senses into the realm of the spirit of God. Having faith is knowing in your heart that you have found the truth. It is affirmative response of man's spirit to God who is Spirit.
It's more than just believing, it's intuitively valid, so you know beyond doubt that it is true.
Something like that.
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 Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 5 months, 22 days
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"you have enough faith, you can walk on water (see Jesus) or do anything you want."
If this were true, crazy people would be causing all kinds of messed up shit to happen.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 5 months, 22 days
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Re: Faith. [Re: trendal]
#1073730 - 11/21/02 12:37 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Perhaps our definitions are a little bit different. I don't think a good scientist would have faith in electons, for instance. That would not be science. You have to be ready to abandon your ideas if they are shown to be incorrect.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 5 months, 22 days
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"It's more than just believing, it's intuitively valid, so you know beyond doubt that it is true."
I would call that being delusional.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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Revelation
ॐ
Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 6,135
Loc: heart cave
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Re: Faith. [Re: Phluck]
#1073799 - 11/21/02 12:57 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well you would. People who have faith wouldn't.
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FreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 19,058
Loc: Toronto Canada
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 Re: Faith. [Re: Swami]
#1073887 - 11/21/02 01:25 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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If you cannot walk on unfrozen, deep water without pontoon feet,
Hey there Swamster! i thought i'd take this opportunity to pick your brain, knowing that you've done a lot of research into many areas of "paranormal" activity. What's the deal with Balinese firewalkers? My understanding is that they are able to walk over hot coals, not only without feeling pain but also their feet remaining unscathed in the process....i guess i am assuming here but i would "think" that faith might play some sort of significant role here.....maybe not.
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"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"
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sir tripsalot
Administrator
Registered: 07/09/99
Posts: 6,487
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I've seen a whole special on different phenominas(sp?) and firewalkes were included. Turns out rocks don't conduct heat too well and they never get too hot to handle as long as you keep you keep moving at a fast pace. Kinda like a hot potato juggling it between hands to give each hand a slight break from the heat.
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"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.
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FreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 19,058
Loc: Toronto Canada
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Thanks for the info STAL, it's just another one of many areas i'd always been meaning to research but never got around to it..... 
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"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"
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raytrace
Stranger
Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
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Re: Faith. [Re: Phluck]
#1074168 - 11/21/02 02:36 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think the very idea of faith implies a closed mind.
so, do you believe in yourself or are you open-minded?
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Yes. Note that they are fire WALKERS, not fire standers. If it were truly mind over matter, then movement would be unnecessary.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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FreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 19,058
Loc: Toronto Canada
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Re: Faith. [Re: Swami]
#1074320 - 11/21/02 03:16 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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If it were truly mind over matter, then movement would be unnecessary.
Good point Swami
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"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"
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Anonymous
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Re: Faith. [Re: Swami]
#1074334 - 11/21/02 03:25 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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I have watched a Lakota Sioux medicine man handle a glowing hot rock the size of a soccer ball with both hands simultaneously for 10-15 seconds during ceremony.
My rational mind has no explanation for that.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Faith. [Re: Phluck]
#1074710 - 11/21/02 06:10 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah I think our definitions in Faith are different.
Here's mine.
Faith: the belief in something that I can't observe with my own senses, and hence cannot prove the existence of.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Zahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 6 months
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Re: Faith. [Re: Phluck]
#1074761 - 11/21/02 06:32 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think the very idea of faith implies a closed mind. I think that it's the arrogant assumption that you know the answer to a question that is impossible to answer.
Disagree with me? Probably. Tell me why I'm wrong, then.
Arrogant? Faith is humility.
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 5 months, 22 days
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Re: Faith. [Re: Zahid]
#1074813 - 11/21/02 06:50 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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"Faith is humility."
That only makes sense if you think your beliefs are 100% true. Of course, you probably do think that. Just like Christians think that, or Heaven's Gate guys think that, or Hindus, or whatever. Their faiths are all different.
How could you really know if there is a god? How do you know your "experiences" with god weren't simply delusions? What makes you so sure that your own mind isn't deceiving you? You trust that what your brain is telling you is 100% correct, and I would say that is arrogant.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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Zahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 6 months
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Re: Faith. [Re: Phluck]
#1075290 - 11/21/02 10:12 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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That only makes sense if you think your beliefs are 100% true. Of course, you probably do think that. Just like Christians think that, or Heaven's Gate guys think that, or Hindus, or whatever. Their faiths are all different.
Yes, but I really do not know the secrets behind other religions--all I know is Islam, and I know Islam is not a false religion.
How could you really know if there is a god? How do you know your "experiences" with god weren't simply delusions? What makes you so sure that your own mind isn't deceiving you? You trust that what your brain is telling you is 100% correct, and I would say that is arrogant.
I directly experience God, and long ago I reasoned these experiences could not be self-manifesting, or something. At that, I've had religious experiences which only makes my faith strong as a rock. For me at least, every aspect of reality points to the existence of God. I know God exists because I have humbled myself before Him. I know God exists because it is impossible for me to imagine this world being a cosmic accident. There are too many "signs" that almost directly tell me there is a God; and if there's a God, He would be merciful enough to give guidance to man. And hence, religion.
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Murex
Reality Hacker
Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: Faith. [Re: Zahid]
#1075454 - 11/21/02 11:19 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Zahid, may I suggest to you a healthy dose of 5 dried grams of psilocybin mushrooms. -This time leave your religon behind.
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What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?
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bluesky
mushroom cowboy
Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 561
Last seen: 20 years, 9 months
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Re: Faith. [Re: Phluck]
#1075534 - 11/22/02 12:08 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Im not a full fledged Christian, although I share some of the Christian ideas, I do not participate in it's organized religion anymore. But a good idea of faith can be represented in a christian-like manner, OK here it goes:
To Christians- God created humans with free will, this allows them to do and choose what they want. People can choose to follow Gods rules or not. If you say to yourself "Ah, I'll do whatever I want because there is no God and I'm not gonna go to any hell" then by Christian rule, you'll go to hell, (but there's no proof of this). If you say to yourself "I must follow Gods rules because I have faith that there is a God and if I break the rules, I'll go to hell." then by Christian rule, you'll go to heaven (no proof there either). Now comes the kicker--- If there was PROOF that God exists, and that if you broke the Christian rules you WOULD indeed go to hell. Then there would be no faith, everyone would KNOW that if they werent good they would go to hell and everyone would follow the rules. The free will would be lost. This is the purpose of Faith in God in humans. This is why there is not and never will be any proof of the existance of God and an afterlife until we die. Because Faith is what God's purpose is balancing on.
Now dont get me wrong, this is just how I interperate the Christian beliefs in God. This isnt necessarily how I feel. I just thought that putting it in Christian context would be the easiest.
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You're my blue sky, you're my sunny day,
Lord you know it makes me high when you turn your love my way. Turn your love my waaaaaay, Yea.
-Richard (Dickey) Betts
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Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 5 months, 22 days
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Re: Faith. [Re: bluesky]
#1075540 - 11/22/02 12:12 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Are you so sure you have free will?
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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