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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Regarding disclaimers where conduct is attributed to animals instead of the poster
#10736893 - 07/25/09 06:06 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Many posters have disclaimers in their signature or in their post where conduct discussed is attributed to a friend or a dream, et cet. I guess the thinking is that this will turn a post from a confession to something less certain.
Some others replace "my friend" or SWIM as the subject with "my hamster" or other bizzarre creatures.
Disclaimers, if not prefunctory like a signature, could seem useful in that it may legitimately be argued that you really were referring to the friend, or whatever. (for this reason I think signature disclaimers attributing all of your actions to someone else are pretty worthless, they obviously aren't true and were written with no forethought of the post's content, and are clearly indicative of concern for liability). It probably won't matter of course, as the posts would likely just get search warrants and similar rather than be used as hard evidence in most cases, but whatever.
Lots of people have been using impossible subjects, like a hamster, to attribute their post's actions to. This seems almost completely worthless to me: It obviously isn't true and indicates you were attempting to hide something rather than just telling a true story or asking a question for a friend. Wouldn't a plausible subject be far better?
What do you think? Worthwhile or almost useless?
If you must use a disclaimer/fictional subject, it would seem you should stick to plausible every day language (no SWIM) and a believable subject. Further, it would seem you should avoid a disclaimer alltogether and simply incorporate your subject of choice into your post, so as to avoid creating obvious doubt as to your truthfulness and intent to deceive.
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Doc_T
Random Dude




Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
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Re: Regarding disclaimers where conduct is attributed to animals instead of the poster [Re: johnm214]
#10736904 - 07/25/09 06:16 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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I think that sort of over-the-top attribution is usually done as a joke.
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Regarding disclaimers where conduct is attributed to animals instead of the poster [Re: Doc_T]
#10736941 - 07/25/09 06:40 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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I assumed so, but I always figured the reason why they did any attribution was because of legal concerns. Then, I imagine, they choose a ridiculous subject as a sort of in joke about "my friend" "SWIM" et cet
Was just saying that if your going to attribute conduct to someone, its not like the choice is arbitrary. i.e. the point wouldn't just be to say something other than yourself did the act but rather to plausibly assert that. Everybody knows the truth anyways, and the law will always beleive it was you anyways, and the only thing you have going for you is the plausibility of your attribution.
So a disclaimer for all posts obviously isn't plausible and shows deception, and a "pet hamster" attribution is additionally deceptive and not plausible. If your going to attribute your conduct, it makes far more sense to just say "my friend" where it is both plausible and not obviously evasive.
But I guess if your not at all concerned about that and just want to make a joke, then this whole thing doesn't matter.
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DAVID_ALLAN_CEO
Resident Gambler


Registered: 10/29/06
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Re: Regarding disclaimers where conduct is attributed to animals instead of the poster [Re: johnm214]
#10796368 - 08/04/09 01:50 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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good musing
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: Regarding disclaimers where conduct is attributed to animals instead of the poster [Re: DAVID_ALLAN_CEO]
#10799295 - 08/04/09 03:00 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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In using an animal your intent would be to make the whole story implausible and clearly a work of fiction. You're certainly allowed to write works of fiction involving talking animals with human characteristics. There are volumes of books written in this way.
This would lend protection because it's obvious that the post is a work of fiction and is not true. It's hard to legally argue that you both want to claim some content as true and other content as false in a work of fiction. It can be viewed entirely as a work of fiction. Your case for asserting that some facts are true is weak since the post is obviously is not credible or reliable.
That would be how I view those types of disclaimers. I can easily see a judge reading it and saying that it seems like a random crackpot internet post by someone with a fanciful imagination. It would be hard to see them taking it as specific and credible evidence.
On the other hand they might just as easily argue that your hamster possessing contraban, being your pet, amounts to you possessing contraban. Or lead it into a case of animal cruelty. Other law might come into play and they might do a "welfare check" on your hamster because they suspect it consumed some drugs based on your post.
As far as sig disclaimers... I think they can be of some value. I like a few that claim the poster is a poser who does nothing illegal and is just trying to sound cool to his internet buddies. Even the ones simply stating the post to be a work of fiction may be helpful. Basically you can write anything you want in a work of fiction. I've never heard of the government busting in on novel writers claiming they think their work of fiction is actually true and evidence of a crime.
I think a good deal of posts here actually are BS from people with little real activity. It's easy to imagine people having fun pretending to be involved in the dangerous world of criminals.
The disclaimer I like best at the moment is the dream style ones. "I dreamt..." or "I dreamed my hamster...". I think they are plausible sounding and abstract the post entirely into the world of fiction. It would seem ridiculous to get a warrant based on a dream someone had. That would be thought police to the max. What do you guys think?
-FF
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Doc_T
Random Dude




Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
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Re: Regarding disclaimers where conduct is attributed to animals instead of the poster [Re: fastfred]
#10801147 - 08/04/09 07:56 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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I guess that makes sense if there's never any pics.
Or, "it looked like this pic which I found on the 'net"...
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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Zebratek
Stranger
Registered: 07/04/09
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Re: Regarding disclaimers where conduct is attributed to animals instead of the poster [Re: fastfred]
#10804380 - 08/05/09 10:51 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
fastfred said:That would be how I view those types of disclaimers. I can easily see a judge reading it and saying that it seems like a random crackpot internet post by someone with a fanciful imagination. It would be hard to see them taking it as specific and credible evidence.
-FF
A judge is not going to be so clueless that he's unable to arrive at the same conclusion that every other poster here does when he reads "So my hamster inoculated some jars and was wondering blah blah blah..." I read those posts and know exactly what's going on, so do you, so does everybody else, and so would a judge.
If you tell an undercover cop posing as a hooker that you want a quick tug for $20 it's not going to be a legitimate defense if you say, "Oh no no officer you misunderstood me I just meant a fast boat capable of towing other boats around the harbor!" They're not retarded. They're not going to buy it and neither will a jury.
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: Regarding disclaimers where conduct is attributed to animals instead of the poster [Re: Zebratek]
#10804766 - 08/05/09 12:04 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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The only thing that really matters is getting a warrant. No jury is going to be deciding that.
The standards for getting a warrant are fairly specific. They need SPECIFIC and CREDIBLE evidence that evidence of a crime will be found in a certain place.
A post saying "My hamster..." is not specific and it's certainly not credible.
If you posted "Yesterday I was at home doing..." then that would be specific (you stated it was at your home), and it would be credible (nothing indicates the post is untrue or that the poster isn't credible).
Just because a judge, cop, or prosecutor thinks they know what you're talking about doesn't magically make it specific and credible evidence.
And in your example they wouldn't stop there, they would talk you into saying something more incriminating or pulling out your dick, then they would bust you. If all they had was "A quick tug" they would just run you through the ringer, they wouldn't take it to trial. It would be enough to just make you hire a lawyer, at which point you would have paid more for a lawyer than you would for the soliciting ticket.
-FF
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Regarding disclaimers where conduct is attributed to animals instead of the poster [Re: fastfred]
#10808401 - 08/05/09 10:06 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Hmm, I hadn't thought of what your saying fred, that it could indicate its a work of fiction as it is clearly implausible.
Still, it seems to me that is indicates intent to decieve, and is a poor substitute for just saying "my friend..." in your post body. Why not have a plausible disclaimer rather than an implausible one?
Anyways, most statements people make on these boards certainly aren't sufficient for a warrant, as fast fred illustrates, but it doesn't really matter. The whole point is whether the disclaimer helps and whether there's a better one that people could be using.
It seems to me, for the above reasons, that simply incorporating a plausible subject and place other than you and your home/property into your post may be best, or framing the post as a question regarding something someone told you (my friend told me this story about...)
Anytime you have disclaimers in a signerature it seems like its going to be a poor solution to the problem your trying to fix.
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