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InvisibleM11
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Registered: 06/14/09
Posts: 1,840
Bulk substrate and PF cake questions...
    #10728249 - 07/23/09 05:18 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Alright.  I have been using the search feature like a mad man, but I have a few more things I want to get cleared up.

I have 4 rye jars of EQ that are doing very well.  I gave them a good shake a couple days ago and they are going gonzo right now.  They should be done in a few days if the growth rates continue. 
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Here are my plans for my bulk substrate.  I posted a few questions about bulk amendments a couple days ago.

Anyway, here it is...

I have potentially 15 cups (just shy of 4 quarts) worth of colonized rye if everything continues as planned.  I want to use a 50:50 spawn to substrate mixture.  I remember reading a post by RR stating that there really isn't a formula for substrate to spawn ratios.  I would like to use a relatively small monotub (thanks Doc_T!).  I want to cover the bottom of the tub with about 1" of substrate, place the spawn on top, and then cover the substrate with another 1".  I will use about 3 quarts coir, 1/2 quart verm, 1/4 quart coffee grounds, 1/4 quart earthworm casings, and about 13 tablespoons (5%) of gypsum (thanks RR!).  I plan on placing the substrate in quart jars and steaming them for about 90 minutes.  I will tightly cover up the tub with steamed aluminum foil until the myc reaches the surface.   

1.  Is this an appropriate substrate to spawn ratio? 
2.  Are my substrate amendments in order? 
3.  Would using more verm and less coir be better?
4.  Is steaming appropriate?  I have read about pasteurizing, but would prefer to steam. 


This question is really more speculation than anything, but how long would you guess pinning would begin after spawning into the 1" substrate I mentioned?  I know there are tons of factors, but a general estimate would be nice.  1 week? 2 weeks? 
--------------------------------------------------
Here are my plans for my PF cake.  I have six others, but only 1 inoculation site in each jar germinated.  :rolleyes:

I plan on giving her the old dunk and roll.  I plan on using medium grade verm, because I have heard that both coarse and fine are the best, so I split the difference.

1.  How well rolled should the cake be? Completely covered in verm? 
2.  I don't want to cold shock it, because I have read it really doesn't do much?  I just want to verify if I should or not.
3.  I can see some "thicker" white areas on the parts of the cake that have been colonized for a while.  Is this a good sign for pre-pinning?
4.  Should I add some light to my cake while it finishes colonizing to speed up the pinning process or should I let it be?

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This section is just for growing in general.

I have an idea for increasing FAE.  What if I were to place a mini fan on top of the FC and run it on low?  The slight difference in air speed across the FC holes will create a lower pressure on top of the tub than on the sides and bottom.  This will cause some air to be "pulled" into the FC from the sides and bottom.  The only issue I can see with this is it could reduce the RH of the FC.  Although high RH values are idea (almost to the point of saturation), I understand that bulk substrates can handle slightly lower RH values than cakes. 

What say you?  Yay or nay for the mini fan idea?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks

M

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Offlineveda_sticks
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Re: Bulk substrate and PF cake questions... [Re: M11]
    #10728406 - 07/23/09 05:50 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Don't use frosting layers with bulk. 1st layer should be bulk, then some spawn, then bulk then spawn etc ntil you get the required substrate depth top layer should be bulk not spawn

Also do not steam you bulk, pasturise it hich means maintaininh a core temp of between 140-160f


--------------------

PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666
Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD
Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong
Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek
Franks Proper Pasturisation Tek
Franks Spawning To Bulk - Monotub
Professor Pinheads RTV Injection Port Tek
Foo Mans No Soak WBS Prep Tek

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InvisibleM11
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Registered: 06/14/09
Posts: 1,840
Re: Bulk substrate and PF cake questions... [Re: veda_sticks]
    #10728491 - 07/23/09 06:08 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

I was going to put the spawn on a 1" bed of bulk substrate and then cover it with a 1" bed of bulk substrate.  Why can't bulk substrates be steamed?  I have seen many teks steaming coir and verm.

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Offlineveda_sticks
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Registered: 07/29/07
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Re: Bulk substrate and PF cake questions... [Re: M11]
    #10728503 - 07/23/09 06:11 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Its not that you can't, you can. But sterilising bulk subs can lead to higher contamination rates.

I've not come across any tek that steams bulk


--------------------

PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666
Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD
Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong
Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek
Franks Proper Pasturisation Tek
Franks Spawning To Bulk - Monotub
Professor Pinheads RTV Injection Port Tek
Foo Mans No Soak WBS Prep Tek

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InvisibleM11
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Registered: 06/14/09
Posts: 1,840
Re: Bulk substrate and PF cake questions... [Re: veda_sticks]
    #10728533 - 07/23/09 06:18 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

So my 2 1" beds of substrate surrounding my spawn is not enough?  How does sterilizing something lead to higher contamination rates?  Doesn't steaming lead to temperatures around 200 F, while pasteurizing only leads to 160 F?

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Offlinephaseflux
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Registered: 07/16/08
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Re: Bulk substrate and PF cake questions... [Re: M11]
    #10728637 - 07/23/09 06:38 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

M11 said:
So my 2 1" beds of substrate surrounding my spawn is not enough?  How does sterilizing something lead to higher contamination rates?  Doesn't steaming lead to temperatures around 200 F, while pasteurizing only leads to 160 F?




Because your destroying beneficial microbes which would otherwise keep it from getting contaminated.

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InvisibleM11
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Registered: 06/14/09
Posts: 1,840
Re: Bulk substrate and PF cake questions... [Re: phaseflux]
    #10728770 - 07/23/09 06:58 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

I guess I will pasteurize then.  I have read about the sterilize vs. pasteurize argument and it seems rather inconclusive to me.  Has anyone experimented with various molds and their ability to overtake pasteurized and sterilized substrates?  I have yet to actually read the names of the purported beneficial "microbes." I guess I can understand why you  may not want to sterilize poo, but coir? 

What beneficial microbes does coir, verm, used coffee grounds and gypsum have?

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InvisibleM11
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Registered: 06/14/09
Posts: 1,840
Re: Bulk substrate and PF cake questions... [Re: M11]
    #10729600 - 07/23/09 09:14 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Is 1" of substrate above and below the spawn suitable?  I have heard of people using more like 3" or so with a frosting layer, but will 1 " work?  I am not too concerned with yield.  I would like the substrate to colonize quickly to avoid contaminants.

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Offlinescoops
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Registered: 03/10/09
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Re: Bulk substrate and PF cake questions... [Re: M11]
    #10729800 - 07/23/09 09:45 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Ya, your substrate mixture should work just fine like that, but I would recommend splitting the spawn and substrate into as many layers as you can. If you do 1/2" layers of substrate, you would have more layers and faster colonization.

I also recommend pasteurizing instead of steaming. The only beneficial bacteria I know of that pasteurization leaves behind is actinomycetes (sp?), commonly known as firefang. If you steam sterilize, then the firefang (and other beneficial microbes if there are any) won't be there to hold off contams.

The fan on top of the FC should be fine, just use a hygrometer to make sure it doesn't affect RH too much. Lots of people have fans pointing at or near their shoutgun FC's. It definately helps with FAE.

As for your pf cake,  you can cover it completely in vermiculite if you'd like. I always just scoop some wet verm on top of the cake and get basically the same results as rolling. Don't cold shock for cubensis. Don't worry about the light yet, it doesn't need it till it's fully colonized.  The mycelium getting thicker at the older spots in jars is normal. You just don't want to see primordia/knots before full colonization. 

Hope this helps!


--------------------
"Ironic, that those who consider us mad are the ones who choose to live in the madness of the illusion"

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InvisibleM11
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Registered: 06/14/09
Posts: 1,840
Re: Bulk substrate and PF cake questions... [Re: scoops]
    #10730055 - 07/23/09 10:24 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Approximately how fast would layering 1/2" substrate with spawn take to colonize with coir, verm, worm castings, and gypsum? Would casing the spawn go faster?

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Offlinescoops
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Re: Bulk substrate and PF cake questions... [Re: M11]
    #10730940 - 07/24/09 01:58 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Well it's hard to say but 1/2" layers compared to 1" layers could save you a few days. Like bringing a 2 week colonization down to 10 days or somethin.  That's just an estimate, but thinner layers definately means faster colonization. It's up to you.

Casing won't make the spawn go faster. casing is what you would do after full colonization, and it would add a few extra days to allow the mycelium to reach through the casing layer. You don't need a casing layer with cubes, but they do really help supply water.


--------------------
"Ironic, that those who consider us mad are the ones who choose to live in the madness of the illusion"

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InvisibleM11
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Registered: 06/14/09
Posts: 1,840
Re: Bulk substrate and PF cake questions... [Re: scoops]
    #10734155 - 07/24/09 04:56 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Last question... for now...

Should I induce fruiting conditions once the myc reaches the surface of the substrate, or should I wait for it to colonize the entire surface of the substrate?

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