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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Union Chief: Obama Should Apologize To Cambridge Police [Re: Gogol]
    #10750584 - 07/27/09 06:37 PM (12 years, 7 days ago)

"Search" is a term of art and has a specific legal meaning.  It doesn't matter if the police officer said anything, what the police officer thought, what Gates though, etc...  If a police officer goes into an area in which you have a reasonably expectation of privacy (this expectation is highest in the home) then it is a search.  End of story.

I'm not convinced that one can have a reasonable expectation of privacy in the foyer of one's home after opening the front door, which Gates did.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Union Chief: Obama Should Apologize To Cambridge Police [Re: Diploid]
    #10750944 - 07/27/09 07:48 PM (12 years, 7 days ago)

No, he does have a reasonable expectation of privacy in his foyer, but it appears he consented to the police's presence in the foyer, so its irrelevant.


Whether or not that was a search kind of misses the point, because the constitution only bars unreasonable searches, and a search pursuant to consent is therefore not constitutionaly relevant.



And ditto on the distinction made earlier- a refusal isn't really relevant to the situation, a lack of consent is.  Regardless, it seems reasonable to conclude he consented to their presence in the foyer, especially given the fact he refused their invitation to leave the foyer and go outside.  (which is a strange move... if the cops come to the door, the best thing to do is to step outside and close the door behind you).


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Union Chief: Obama Should Apologize To Cambridge Police [Re: johnm214]
    #10751031 - 07/27/09 08:07 PM (12 years, 7 days ago)

Well, I though we were debating the legal definition of "Search". I can't find a definitive reference anywhere online so far, though there is a lot of information about when a search is legal and when it isn't.

If a search is what happens when the police look some place where it would be reasonable for a person to expect privacy, then the foyer of a house with an open front door (opened by the person who lives there), and which is then visible in plain sight from the sidewalk, is not a place where one would reasonably expect privacy. At least not as long as the front door remains open.

Same for the police looking through an open window while standing on the sidewalk. That's not a search if the definition I'm proposing holds.

Now, if the cops had walked into Gates' bedroom or some other part of the house not visible from the open front door, THAT I'd agree is a search. But that's not what happened.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Union Chief: Obama Should Apologize To Cambridge Police [Re: Diploid]
    #10751800 - 07/27/09 10:30 PM (12 years, 7 days ago)

What I'm saying is that "search" doesn't matter.  "reasonable search" does.


If he consented to the presence in the foyer, then it is a reasonable search.  If he opened the door like many do when someone is knocking, then he consented to their viewing of what could be seen through said open door.


It is not an unreasonable search for the police to be present in the foyer pursuant to someone opening the door to them, and tacitly allowing them inside with no objection and even an objection to moving elsewhere.


You have a reasonable expectation of privacy in your whole house, presumably, and any warantless search therein is presumptivly unreasonable.  Given that he let them in and made no objection, it is hard to see that as an unreasonable search.  Some case law has been devoted to the issue of what a search is, but it seems irrelevant here.



(zappa, are you going to retract your statement?  Your response had nothing to do with the statement you challenged- you changed the issue of whether a burglary report was per se justification for an officer to search a house to something much more limited to the paticulars of this case.  Either limit your rather nasty claim to the grounds on which you somewhat defend it or back it up.)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Union Chief: Obama Should Apologize To Cambridge Police [Re: johnm214]
    #10754140 - 07/28/09 10:35 AM (12 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:

(zappa, are you going to retract your statement?  Your response had nothing to do with the statement you challenged- you changed the issue of whether a burglary report was per se justification for an officer to search a house to something much more limited to the paticulars of this case.  Either limit your rather nasty claim to the grounds on which you somewhat defend it or back it up.)




What statement?  That you don't know what you're talking about regarding the law?  The cop could have arrested him on suspicion of burglary right there when he didn't produce.


--------------------


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Union Chief: Obama Should Apologize To Cambridge Police [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10754158 - 07/28/09 10:39 AM (12 years, 6 days ago)

Once again Iowahawk delights:
http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/

Quote:

Cambridge Police Profiling Still A Grim Reality for Harvard Faculty Assholes


Guest Opinion
by Professor John Evans Evans-John
Harvard School of Harvard Faculty Asshole Studies
Harvard University

When I first learned of the arrest of my colleague Professor Henry Louis "Skip" Gates after he stood up to the fascist jackboots of a declasse, ill-educated Cambridge police officer, I was of course angered -- but scarcely shocked. L'Affaire Gates simply aired, in public, the dirty 100-thread-count table linen of an American culture where Harvard faculty assholes still face a daily struggle against profiling, abuse, and insolence.

It will come as no surprise that Skip's arrest was the talk of the Douchebag Room at the Harvard Faculty Club last Friday. I and a group of colleagues had assembled for our weekly lunch; I opted for their competently-prepared Ahi Tuna Tartare and an amusing glass of '05 Hospices de Beaune Premier Cru Cuvee Cyrot-Chaudron. I had noticed that the Franz Fanon Memorial Booth -- Skip's long-reserved lunch spot -- was uncharacteristically empty, and asked our waiter Sergio for an explanation.

"Professor Skeep, he no is come today," said Sergio. "I tink he is in the jail."

Our table exchanged knowing glances, for we knew immediately that Skip was only the latest victim of a system that singles out the Harvard faculty asshole for stigmatization and unequal justice. It is a system that all of us knew too well, and provided an opportunity for an open conversation about our shared experiences as Harvard faculty assholes in America while waiting for Sergio to bring the dessert cart.

One after one came the cascade of stark stories: the rolled eyes of our department secretaries. The Spanish language mockery of our office janitors. The foul gestures of drunken strap-hanging Red Sox lumpenproles aboard the MBTA. The frequent police stops on the highway to Cape Ann and Martha's Vineyard for "Volvoing While Asshole." And then there are the insulting media stereotypes, where we are routinely caricatured as pompous, effete, self-important, irrelevant elitists. All, I might add, by a motley collection of lowbrow inferiors, few of whom have ever published in a peer-reviewed journal. Let alone edit one.




Follow the link, there's lots more.


--------------------


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InvisibleTherian
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Re: Union Chief: Obama Should Apologize To Cambridge Police [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10758983 - 07/29/09 01:36 AM (12 years, 5 days ago)

I do believe Obama should apologize. What is mind boggling to me is that after Obama made an ass out of himself he then said he called the officer and found him to be a good man. WTF? He then said he invited both parties to have a beer with him. I feel for the white cop, and I never thought I would utter those words. 

Yes, I'm sure he would love to have a beer with two privileged, elitist negro assholes. Lets see one of them said he and his department acted stupidly, and then insinuated that this was a case of racial profiling, thus accusing the officer of being a racist. While attempting to protect the Negros house none the less.

The cops other drinking buddy would be the asshole that called him a racist, pulled the don't you know who I am bullshit, and then proceeded to insult his mother. Yeah, I'd love to have a drink with these race card playing assholes with a sense of entitlement.  I would like nothing more than to have the cop go on the news telling Obama where to shove his beer.

Then again I would really love it if the cop went to the white house for the beer, tased these assholes and then took out his baton and brought down Rodney King style justice on their negro asses.

I think the cop deserves an apology from both. Where many of us come from if someone insulted your mother while you were in the act of attempting to protect their property, someone would get a beat down. I think the only problem with this case is that the police force obviously caved after arresting the prof. I'm sure that much like the Maryland fire dept. they were worried about the false impression of racism, much less from  a "distinguished black scholar" crying racism like the loudmouthed bitch that he is. I would like to know why they dropped the charges, thus seemingly minimizing the credibility of the arrest. You see people being arrested for disorderly conduct all the time. Their fear of race mongering rhetoric by negro's only backfired on them, like so many others.

I think many whites should take stock in who this wonderful "bring the races together" president has screwed. He has mocked, laughed at, screwed over, and called stupid and racist several white blue collar workers.

Lets see, he laughed at the plumber saying "yeah right like he'll ever make 200k" "he's a plumber" I guess only blacks can have the "audacity to hope" A privileged black lawyer asshole putting down a blue collar worker.

How about the white firefighters, with Obama agreeing that tests should be thrown out because the Negros were too ignorant to pass. Yes, these whites should be denied the promotion and the ability to make more money to support their families, because blacks can't pass. When are we just going to take these Negros by the hand, bring them to the testing center, show them the answers beforehand, and then fill them out for them?

Now he is calling a white firefighter stupid or stating he acted stupidly and is guilty of being a racist.

When the stim package came out Obama and his cronies stated they didn't want the money going to white construction workers. How blatantly fucking racist is this. They don't want a negro handout, they want to work, and they are to be punished/kept from working simply because they are white.

So, Obama and his followers have insulted and fucked over plumbers, cops, firefighters, and construction workers. How much more blue collar/proletarian can one get? I was all for going after the bankers that have totally screwed us, but don't bother they work for Obama now. Its those evil,racist white blue collar workers with all the political influence and power that have been keeping the black man down. They obviously must be punished.


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OfflineTHC Titan
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Re: Union Chief: Obama Should Apologize To Cambridge Police [Re: Therian]
    #10759138 - 07/29/09 02:08 AM (12 years, 5 days ago)

Does anyone who's not racist or a senior citizen use the term "negro" anymore?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Union Chief: Obama Should Apologize To Cambridge Police [Re: THC Titan]
    #10760172 - 07/29/09 08:22 AM (12 years, 5 days ago)

There's nothing racist about the term Negro.

Give to the United Negro College Fund. Because a mind is a terrible thing to waste.


The truly stupid term is "hyphenated-American".

Now.... that's just fucking stupid. Unless of course someone holds a dual citizenship.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Union Chief: Obama Should Apologize To Cambridge Police [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #10760424 - 07/29/09 10:01 AM (12 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
There's nothing racist about the term Negro.



Apart from the fact that it's a term mostly used by racists. I mean, there's nothing racist about wearing a pointed white hood either, but it's naive to think that wearing one won't affect people's opinion of you.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Union Chief: Obama Should Apologize To Cambridge Police [Re: zouden]
    #10760577 - 07/29/09 10:38 AM (12 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
There's nothing racist about the term Negro.



Apart from the fact that it's a term mostly used by racists. I mean, there's nothing racist about wearing a pointed white hood either, but it's naive to think that wearing one won't affect people's opinion of you.




So the people that run the United Negro College Fund are racists?

Could be I suppose. That might come as a surprise to them.

Frankly, only small minded little pukes would find that term racist.

I suppose you would have a problem with the term "niggardly" as well. And of course, the term "boy" comes to mind.

Too bad the English language has been perverted by a bunch of guilty feeling white boys.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Union Chief: Obama Should Apologize To Cambridge Police [Re: THC Titan]
    #10760706 - 07/29/09 11:13 AM (12 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

THC Titan said:
Does anyone who's not racist or a senior citizen use the term "negro" anymore?



Me.  It's the correct word.


--------------------


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OfflineTHC Titan
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Re: Union Chief: Obama Should Apologize To Cambridge Police [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10761415 - 07/29/09 02:00 PM (12 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
So the people that run the United Negro College Fund are racists?




Didn't I say some senior citizens still use that term out of habit, being of product of their times etc? The UNCF has been around for a long while, longer than my parents have been alive.

Quote:

I suppose you would have a problem with the term "niggardly" as well. And of course, the term "boy" comes to mind.




The word "niggardly" isn't derived from "nigger" and it doesn't even share common etymological roots. Also if you used the term "boy" as a term of inferiority towards a black person, yes, I would say there's more than a hint of racism when used in that context.

Nonetheless there are no young adults that uses the term "negro" as the daily, go-to label for black people without having the reasonable expectation of people believing that person is racist. Because they most likely are.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Union Chief: Obama Should Apologize To Cambridge Police [Re: THC Titan]
    #10761434 - 07/29/09 02:04 PM (12 years, 5 days ago)

How prejudiced of you.


--------------------


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OfflineTHC Titan
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Re: Union Chief: Obama Should Apologize To Cambridge Police [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10761473 - 07/29/09 02:11 PM (12 years, 5 days ago)

Yeah, I believe people who refer to black people as Negros long after that term left the lexicon of daily usage, and who espouse that black people are inherently inferior to whites in terms of intelligence and emotional capability, are racists. I freely admit to holding that prejudicial belief.


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OfflineYrat
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Re: Union Chief: Obama Should Apologize To Cambridge Police [Re: THC Titan]
    #10761599 - 07/29/09 02:33 PM (12 years, 5 days ago)

anyone that refers to blacks as negros is racist if they fail to refer to whites as caucasians.


--------------------
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Union Chief: Obama Should Apologize To Cambridge Police [Re: THC Titan]
    #10761758 - 07/29/09 03:02 PM (12 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

THC Titan said:
Yeah, I believe people who refer to black people as Negros long after that term left the lexicon of daily usage, and who espouse that black people are inherently inferior to whites in terms of intelligence and emotional capability, are racists. I freely admit to holding that prejudicial belief.



You seem to have added some extra conditions this time around.  Maybe you would want to include Stormfront and Klan membership as well. 

Long after it left the lexicon of daily usage, huh?  How about "nigger", then?  Because that is quite common.  United Negro College Fund.  Or this little beauty:  NAACP.  Yep, Colored People.  Or this
Gates, Henry Louis, Jr. (1994). Colored People: A Memoir

Spare me any more of your pomposity.  You do not define the English language.  You are eminently unqualified.


--------------------


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OfflineTHC Titan
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Re: Union Chief: Obama Should Apologize To Cambridge Police [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10761985 - 07/29/09 03:45 PM (12 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

THC Titan said:
Yeah, I believe people who refer to black people as Negros long after that term left the lexicon of daily usage, and who espouse that black people are inherently inferior to whites in terms of intelligence and emotional capability, are racists. I freely admit to holding that prejudicial belief.



You seem to have added some extra conditions this time around.  Maybe you would want to include Stormfront and Klan membership as well. 




Therian has already stated those positions in other threads, with significantly more vitriol than I conveyed.

Quote:

Long after it left the lexicon of daily usage, huh?  How about "nigger", then?  Because that is quite common.  United Negro College Fund.  Or this little beauty:  NAACP.  Yep, Colored People.  Or this
Gates, Henry Louis, Jr. (1994). Colored People: A Memoir

Spare me any more of your pomposity.  You do not define the English language.  You are eminently unqualified.




First, as I already pointed out, it's not the word that's vulgar, it is the usage. I'm not going to get on some old person's case for using negro because they grew up before desegregation and that's just how it was. Similarly the UNCF was founded quite a while ago, by a different generation of Americans, and the name is not a big issue of contention at all.

With the Gates example, you're just further proving my point. The title hearkens back to the life of a black person prior to the civil rights movement - it's a memoir, did you catch that? - and the title "Colored People" is used specifically because it is linked with the time period in which it takes place.

There's a noticeable difference in context between those examples and someone under 30 using the word "negro" to discuss why black people are stupid, inept at leadership, etc. etc. The word "negro" isn't necessarily racist in and of itself, but when pared next to other statements, it's pretty obvious when racism is going on.


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Union Chief: Obama Should Apologize To Cambridge Police [Re: THC Titan]
    #10761996 - 07/29/09 03:46 PM (12 years, 5 days ago)



--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Union Chief: Obama Should Apologize To Cambridge Police [Re: THC Titan]
    #10762006 - 07/29/09 03:47 PM (12 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

THC Titan said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
So the people that run the United Negro College Fund are racists?




Didn't I say some senior citizens still use that term out of habit, being of product of their times etc? The UNCF has been around for a long while, longer than my parents have been alive.

Quote:

I suppose you would have a problem with the term "niggardly" as well. And of course, the term "boy" comes to mind.




The word "niggardly" isn't derived from "nigger" and it doesn't even share common etymological roots. Also if you used the term "boy" as a term of inferiority towards a black person, yes, I would say there's more than a hint of racism when used in that context.

Nonetheless there are no young adults that uses the term "negro" as the daily, go-to label for black people without having the reasonable expectation of people believing that person is racist. Because they most likely are.




Perhaps we should stop using niggardly as well seeing as it offends some people.

Perhaps we should take polls to see what words don't offend small minded people. I include those that find the word negro offensive in the small minded group. As well as those who are sadly quick to toss out the word racism, racist or any variation of the word. I find them pathetically small minded. Weak thinkers.

I suspect little would get said if that was done.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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