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OfflineMescalitoTed
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Registered: 06/25/09
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The Devil is in The Details
    #10682527 - 07/15/09 03:02 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

After being a lurker for some time, it appears that so many cultivation questions exist surrounding the PF Tek because - and this will piss of some people - there simply isn't a 100% clear explanation of the process. There are SEVERAL good efforts, but not one truly answer all the questions surrounding the minutiae involved. And even worse, contradictions are everywhere. Lid right side up? Right side down? Tape left on while colonizing? Taken off?

Roger Rabbits video is by far the best effort I've seen. He clearly knows his stuff and tries to include the details, especially in the first section where he has to fill in the gaps of Roadkill's presentation several times.

However, even there, no mention is made as to whether tape should be left on after inoculation (and it can't be deduced from the footage). Another ambiguity, for example, is in the part where he soaks straw with dishsoap. The video just ends with him showing the soak. What is next? How do we wash-off the soap?

The fact that there is so much variation is because, I believe the process is so forgiving. But that shouldn't mean that ambiguity is left out there. Simply look to half of the threads here where people attempt to answer noob questions regarding steam sterilization. Its quite apparent that most people providing answers don't even understand the process behind it, suggesting that lids are to be left lose "so the steam can enter the substrate", or because the jars will "explode".

Even if variation exists out of personal preferece, a proper write-up of the process would acknowledge such variations (i.e "some people prefer to pressure cook for 90 minutes while others find 60 or even 45 minutes to be sufficient") so as to give the complete novice an understanding of where along the process things *truly* need to be done without variation. This is especially important given the caliber of the people involved - the level of English here is shockingly bad, and I can only imagine that a significant percentage of this forum's population is made up of people for whom English is not a first language, or even worse, kids.

Will someone write up a definitive guide so that there need only be one and all this confusion can be put to bed? A (well-written) FAQ would reduce 3/4 of the posts in this section. Its been done before in other hobbies -  I suggest the Hive as a good example of organized information.

You know, I still have yet to come across an acceptable explanation of why lids are placed upside down or why people keep jar lids loose during sterilization. Why is there no census on these basic things?

Edited by MescalitoTed (07/15/09 03:08 PM)

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Offlinedieselkush
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Re: The Devil is in The Details [Re: MescalitoTed]
    #10682581 - 07/15/09 03:10 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

because you do not want to can your jars. therefor they are placed upside down. and heat creates pressure, wich would make the jars impossible to get open if you tightened them before pcing. the pf tek is good and solid, you just have to read it right and follow it.

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OfflineMescalitoTed
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Re: The Devil is in The Details [Re: dieselkush]
    #10682618 - 07/15/09 03:13 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Then we does RR himself say to tighten the jars? Your post is a classic example of what I'm talking about:

1. Whether I am "canning" my jars as you say, or plan to open them soon after sterilizing, the jar lid orientation matters none. The reason is likely that its "easier" to open the jars with the lid upside down because no seal is formed. This should be explained in a FAQ so no more questions will be asked about this.

2. "heat creates pressure, which would make the jars impossible to get open if you tightened them before pcing". This makes zero sense. I don't think you know the answer.

Edited by MescalitoTed (07/15/09 03:17 PM)

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OfflineBeefWatson
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Re: The Devil is in The Details [Re: MescalitoTed]
    #10682776 - 07/15/09 03:36 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

just read more, and you cant really expect someone to compile a difinitive guide, there are many ways of doing the same thing.

and why really does it matter why you it says to put the lid upside down, it cant really be an inconvenience to do so.

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Invisibleprismism
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Re: The Devil is in The Details [Re: MescalitoTed]
    #10682846 - 07/15/09 03:46 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

it doesnt matter if the lid is up or down. that is why there is no definitive answer to that question. and maybe even others.
you gain a personal preference through experience. not just reading what someone else does.


--------------------
ephemeral anomalous

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Offlineveda_sticks
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Re: The Devil is in The Details [Re: BeefWatson]
    #10682852 - 07/15/09 03:47 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Theres just no enough space to fit all of RR's footage on 2 dvds, that is why some information appears to be missing. Hes crammed as much as he could into it as he could.

You inoculate straight through the tape and leave the wound open. your dry verm barrier stops contams getting through.

This is why we have the forums, i know this question has been asked countless times.

Not sure about straw, never done it before


--------------------

PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666
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Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek
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Offlinezenman223
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Re: The Devil is in The Details [Re: BeefWatson]
    #10682865 - 07/15/09 03:49 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

there really is no deffinative way that must be done without variation. if someone was to write a tek explaining "this is the way it musht be done without variation" there would be all kind of people who chime in and say "i do this" or "you dont have to do that"

if your confused about pf tek just keep reading and learning, its pretty simple really, there is quite a bit of subtle variation in information you may see about it but in the end your still doing the same thing basically. the only thing i can think must be done "without variation" is sterilizing your brf. after that theres a hundred ways to do lids, brf, etc. (sometimes i dont even use lids, i just use tinfoil.)

just try diffrent variants till you find the right combination that works for you.


--------------------
"I think I am, therefore I become."
"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain 

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OfflineMescalitoTed
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Re: The Devil is in The Details [Re: zenman223]
    #10682899 - 07/15/09 03:58 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Zenman, I completely agree.

Quote:

if someone was to write a tek explaining "this is the way it musht be done without variation" there would be all kind of people who chime in and say "i do this" or "you dont have to do that"




That is essentially what is happening now. That's why I think there should be a FAQ that explains the variations, rather than having 20 different cutely-named "teks". I think it would go far in reducing the amount of questions that get asked here.

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Offlinemitochondria
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Re: The Devil is in The Details [Re: prismism]
    #10682926 - 07/15/09 04:04 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

I have been looking into the tape thing, should it be left on or taken off? I had a friend helping me when we made our first batch of jars we both watched the video and read different things. Well some how he got the idea that he would double tape the jar lids and then put the ring on. so now I have growth but it seems slow. After one and a half weeks I would say that my best jars are about 15% to 20% colonized and I wonder if it is because of inhibited G.E. because of too much tape. So I read posts and felt more confused but not disenchanted. I took a couple jars and removed the tape from the lids without opening them and am now watching to see what happens. On my second batch I just put one layer of tape and made my mix just a little wetter to see if that would change anything because it looks kinda dry also.


--------------------
All in the name of Science!!!!
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Offlinegnarfbuckle
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Re: The Devil is in The Details [Re: mitochondria]
    #10682964 - 07/15/09 04:13 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Just pick a proven method, like RR's and follow it to the letter.

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Offlinezenman223
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Re: The Devil is in The Details [Re: mitochondria]
    #10682991 - 07/15/09 04:18 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

well i cant say i diagree with that, compile all info related to pf tek and put it in one thread.

that would make it a little less confusing i geuss, for those who are confused by its simplicity!

but seriously its not a bad idea but you know even if that was done there would still be people to lazy to read and asking basic questions, getting conflicting answers. so it might not even serve a purpose!


--------------------
"I think I am, therefore I become."
"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain 

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Offlinetush2
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Re: The Devil is in The Details [Re: zenman223]
    #10683071 - 07/15/09 04:33 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla


--------------------
I've known you since before the dinosaurs had feathers



mushrooms are something you do while you're waiting for your cacti to grow...

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: The Devil is in The Details [Re: tush2]
    #10683155 - 07/15/09 04:49 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Why would you not tighten the lids?  It's assumed when you watch the video that the lid rings are being screwed down.  There's no point in turning blue in the face from tightening them excessively, but you don't want them loose either. Anyone who says to leave the lids loose, simply does not understand physics. The point was made in the video to use BREATHABLE tape, thus it can be left on. What would be the point in putting tape on the lids and inoculating through the tape as shown in the 2nd part of the 4 part brf tek, if it needed to be taken off?

As for the straw tek, that's only a sample clip that's shown on the site.  If it was necessary to rinse the soap off the straw, it would have been shown. You don't rinse the soap off.  You move the straw from the soapy soak to the pasteurization water. 

If I or anyone else tried to say EVERYTHING that could possibly be said, the brf tek would be a 1000 page book, or a 20 DVD set, not a thirty minute video, and everyone would fall asleep trying to watch or read it.  It's expected the viewer will be able to figure some things out for himself.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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OfflineRiver77
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Re: The Devil is in The Details [Re: BeefWatson]
    #10683193 - 07/15/09 04:57 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

said:
just read more, and you cant really expect someone to compile a definitive guide, there are many ways of doing the same thing.

and why really does it matter why you it says to put the lid upside down, it cant really be an inconvenience to do so.





Isn't that why this forum is here to compile information so people can find answers to questions. I like to know little details myself because because I am meticulous to a degree with my hobbies.  When I first started doing the PF almost 14 years ago I had a lot of the same questions. And I didn't have access to awesome forums like this. I would have been even more confused with all the discrepancies and opinions. And if you take the time to read all the info you will definitely have questions.


--------------------
Fine line between fishing, and standing on the shore with a pole in your hand.

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InvisiblePremedman1
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Re: The Devil is in The Details [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10683216 - 07/15/09 05:03 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
It's expected the viewer will be able to figure some things out for himself.
RR




:yesnod:

Quote:

Premedman1 said:
It's not under-attention that hurts new growers, it's over-working the process.(TM)




There's really no substitute for experience.


--------------------
Build a man a fire, he is warm for the night. Set a man on fire, he is warm for the rest of his life.

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InvisibleAlexP
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Re: The Devil is in The Details [Re: River77]
    #10683219 - 07/15/09 05:03 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

You only have questions if you study!




                                    :courtjudge:


--------------------
"To feel today what one felt yesterday isn't to feel - it's to remember today what was felt yesterday, to be today's living corpse of what yesterday was lived and lost." Fernando Pessoa

"When one creates phantoms for oneself, one puts vampires into the world, and one must nourish these children of a voluntary nightmare with one's blood, one's life, one's intelligence, and one's reason, without ever satisfying them." Eliphas Levi

"The joy of life consists in the exercise of one's energies, continual growth, constant change, the enjoyment of every new experience. To stop means simply to die. The eternal mistake of mankind is to set up an attainable ideal." Aleister Crowley

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: The Devil is in The Details [Re: MescalitoTed]
    #10683247 - 07/15/09 05:10 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MescalitoTed said:
That's why I think there should be a FAQ that explains the variations, rather than having 20 different cutely-named "teks". I think it would go far in reducing the amount of questions that get asked here.




While your ideas are not entirely off base, you seem to miss ONE important thing:

Creating such a FAQ would require a LOT of work... work you don't seem willing to do YOURSELF.

As a guy who has written two extensive FAQ's here at The Shroomery (The Tripper's FAQ and the Cubensis Strain/Race/Variety Profiles) I can tell you from experience that your idea would take forever and a day to complete (both of my FAQ's took years... and neither will ever be 'Complete'). Also, I can tell you that if you want something done to your specifications, you must do it yourself.

So, if you want a complete PF Tek FAQ, get off your soapbox, familiarize yourself with the search feature, and start writing.

AND, be prepared to keep updating your FAQ every single time you get new info... or it will become outdated very quickly. Home mycology is a relatively new hobby and things change every day.

Get to work and good luck. :wink:

Oh, and welcome to The Shroomery! I think you'll like it here.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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InvisiblePremedman1
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Re: The Devil is in The Details [Re: Rose]
    #10683260 - 07/15/09 05:14 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
So, if you want a complete PF Tek FAQ, get off your soapbox, familiarize yourself with the search feature, and start writing.




:highfive:


--------------------
Build a man a fire, he is warm for the night. Set a man on fire, he is warm for the rest of his life.

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Offlineheadofmike
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Re: The Devil is in The Details [Re: Premedman1]
    #10683479 - 07/15/09 05:59 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Like seriously? SERIOUSLY!!?? There has been sooo much written on the pftek that it nearly annoyes me to see questions anymore. Just use common sense and you'll figure out the answers to most of your questions. However, if you can't do that, there is an exspansive amount of information in these forums, in the faq, and in RR's dvd. I can promise you that anything you could possibly want the answer to is in these forums. I've only done the pftek once and that was 2 years ago, but lets see if from memory I can tell you exactly how to get mushrooms in approx 4 weeks.

1. Get your ingrediants. you'll need wide mouth half pint jars, vermiculite, brown rice flour, some water, and some aluminum foil,a glove box, I can't remember if gypsum is usually added or not
2. Mix ingrediants. 2 parts verm, 1 parts water, 1 part brf. (Mix water and verm before adding brf)
3. Load in jars, Clean lip of jars off with a rag, and add a dry layer of verm, about a half inch
4. Put lids with 4 1/8 inch holes on jars upside down
5. Cover holes with micropore tape
6. Place foil over lids of jars (so water don't get in!)
7. Put jars in either a pc, or a large pot with spacers on the bottom. PC for 90 minutes at 15 psi, or bring to a full boil for 90 minutes
8. Let the jars cool out for long while, spray the shit out've your glovebox with lysol
9. Take a shower, brush your teeth, pray to the gods of mycelium that you don't get contams, spray the shit out've your glovebox again.
10. Place jars,and syringes inside gloxebox
11. Stick your arms into the gloxebox (where gloves if you can), and wipe your arms/hands with rubbing alchohol
12. Take the foil off of one jar, Take the cover off the syringe, and flame sterilize till it turns red
13. Count to 3
14. Stick the tip of the need into on of the 4 holes of the jar and squirt liquid to the side of the jar until you see it run down. Repeat for other 3 holes. Cover holes with micropore tape
15. Flame sterilize, repreat
16. So you've shot spores into all your jars now you just need to put in a warm place until they're all covered with white. But if they turn any other color except maybe yellow or blue throw them out.
17. Time to fruit! Take the lids off the jars. Tip the jar upside down and your cake should slide out into your gloved/ alchohol wiped hand. If not, give it a little thump and it will.
18. Fill a clean bucket with good water and stick all your cakes inside of it. Cover all this with something to hold them down....like a plate
19. Wait 24 hours
20. Remove cakes from water, and roll them all in dry, fresh vermiculite. Coat the cakes well
21. Get a big clear tub with lid and drill about a 300 holes all over it (this is a joke, drill a fuckton)
22. Get a bag of perlite, wash the perlite in the sink (to get the dust off, and to hyrdrate it with water)
23. Put the perlite into the tub loosely till you get about 5 inches deep.
24. Put cakes inside tub
25 Turn lights on tub for a cycle of 12/12
26. Take lid off and fan cakes with it as many times a day as you have time.
27. Pick mushrooms and enjoy.
Now, I hope all of your questions have been answered....
If not, search, someone else overthought this tek too

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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: The Devil is in The Details [Re: MescalitoTed]
    #10683486 - 07/15/09 06:00 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

I love the title of this thread.
So true.

I recommend you try one or two or three methods, and find something that works well for you.

And whatever you do, experiment with Taz and Ausie clone strains!
I've played with dozens, and those two are the champs, (by far), in my book!

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