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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Liberalism [Re: Xlea321]
    #1090738 - 11/27/02 12:29 PM (19 years, 9 days ago)

"All the evidence points to any encounters between groups being based on sharing and helping."

What evidence? The books they wrote? The movies they made? Have you ever observed wild animals? They quarrel and fight over territory, over mating rights, or just for food. Humans are no different, and just assuming that we all worked together seems pretty illogical as it goes against every aspect of human nature. Xenophobia is an instinct, we always fear and distrust strangers, and I'm sure it was no different in ancient times. Native americans lived this lifestyle, and they had constant wars and feuds between tribes.

I don't see any evidence at all that you're not talking out your ass.

"Don't believe everything you see on 2001 a space oddysey."

Don't believe everything you read in "Dr. Flakey's Guide to Mystical Anthropology". I've done a good deal of research on pre-history, and there's no evidence at all that shows everyone lived in wonderful buy-the-world-a-coke harmony. None. If there is, show it to me.

"The twentieth century was the most violent in human history. There's no question about that."

Sure there is, there's lots of reason to question that. You have absolutely nothing to back that up with. Like I said, the reason that the violence happens on a larger scale, is because there's more people. Of course you don't bother to find any evidence to refute that, because it doesn't fit into your little theory about how everything is getting so miserable.

I wish I could find the article I read about it, but one thing that psychologists have documented is the belief that the vast majority of people seem to take on as they age, that the quality of life is worsening. They seem to take on this belief, even if things are getting better. It's closely related to nostalgia.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Liberalism [Re: Phluck]
    #1091021 - 11/27/02 02:32 PM (19 years, 9 days ago)

as it goes against every aspect of human nature.

Do a quick experiment for me to prove human nature. Find someone you know who is having a hard time and help them out. Your grandma, a kid with brain damage, whoever. Take note of how it makes you feel. Then go and find a handicapped kid and kick his head in and steal from him. Do the same to an old lady. Then come back and tell us which made you feel better.

My guess is you'd felt better helping someone. Most people would. That's human nature. Where do you get this idea that everyone wants to hurt someone from? That's certainly not me and it ain't the people I know.

Xenophobia is an instinct, we always fear and distrust strangers,

Nope. This was a tremendous problem to the landowners during the early days of slavery. Far from hating and fearing the black slaves, if any blacks escaped the poor whites would care for them and protect them from the landowners. It took decades of tremendous effort passing laws, threats and terrible retribution to train the poor whites to be racist. Never let anyone tell you "racism" is natural. We naturally help strangers. That's human nature.

Like I said, the reason that the violence happens on a larger scale, is because there's more people.

Nah that's complete bullshit. There wasn't that much difference between the number of people alive in the 1800's and the 1900's. Certainly not enough to explain the enormous explosion in wars, cruelty, genocides etc. It's simple fact. No historian would even question it.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Liberalism [Re: Xlea321]
    #1091156 - 11/27/02 03:27 PM (19 years, 9 days ago)

"My guess is you'd felt better helping someone. Most people would. That's human nature. Where do you get this idea that everyone wants to hurt someone from? That's certainly not me and it ain't the people I know. "

I don't know what world you're living in, but I've noticed that there's a lot of violence, greed, and hatred. I don't know where the hell you think it came from, but it came from somewhere.

Dogs can be nice, friendly creatures. Loving, loyal, and energetic. Take them for a walk, and they might flip out at other dogs that they pass. People react violently and stupidly in a lot of situations. Not everybody does, but the world isn't a black and white, good vs. evil place like you seem to think it is. All people are different. Don't tell me you've never seen a fight break out over insignificant bullshit. Maybe in your well educated idealist bohemian world everyone works together in peace and harmony, but in case you haven't noticed, there are wars, famine, violence, and hatred all over the world, in both the human and animal kingdoms. I don't know why you seem to think that humans are above the mindless squabbling that animals are prone to, but I think it's arrogant nonsense.

There were quite a few huge wars in the nineteenth century. The world wars are really just the results of european imperialism, and the playing out of an arms race between England and Germany. There is no increase in genocide and cruelty, and I haven't tallied a list of every conflict in both centuries, but I'm sure the numbers would be pretty close. The players just happened to be big countries, with better technology.

"There wasn't that much difference between the number of people alive in the 1800's and the 1900's."

You can't just make things up when you're debating something. Did you bother to research that statement at all?

http://ubh.tripod.com/ub/h202/wpop1.htm

Between 1800 and 1950, the population of the world pretty much doubled. It's pretty much doubled again since then.

"Far from hating and fearing the black slaves, if any blacks escaped the poor whites would care for them and protect them from the landowners. It took decades of tremendous effort passing laws, threats and terrible retribution to train the poor whites to be racist. Never let anyone tell you "racism" is natural. We naturally help strangers. That's human nature. "

Helping people can be human nature, but xenophobia and violence are also human nature. People didn't need to be trained to hate blacks. Some hated them, others didn't. Where do you think the initial racism came from? Is it human nature for rich people to be racist, but not for poor people?


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Liberalism [Re: Phluck]
    #1091508 - 11/27/02 05:49 PM (19 years, 9 days ago)

but in case you haven't noticed, there are wars, famine, violence, and hatred all over the world,

I think you're confusing human nature and capitalist society. Once authority was in place it's a whole other ball game. The people in power need armies and cops to protect them, they don't give a shit about inequality so human behaviour in those systems changes. Nothing to do with human nature.

Between 1800 and 1950, the population of the world pretty much doubled.

Irrelevant. Are you seriously trying to suggest the same proportion of the population were dying in wars in 50,000 BC as they did in the twentieth century? Nonsense.

Is it human nature for rich people to be racist, but not for poor people?

Don't think it has anything to do with human nature. A few people realised they could make big profits abusing slaves. This profit would have dropped sharply if slaves were constantly running away and being protected by the native population. Penalties were introduced to prevent this along with decades of propaganda and fear tactics. Look at the war on drugs. By your logic it must be human nature for people to be terrified of drugs. It isn't. Look at history and you'll find it's exactly the opposite. Authority can create and spread irrational fears.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Liberalism [Re: Xlea321]
    #1091547 - 11/27/02 06:07 PM (19 years, 9 days ago)

"I think you're confusing human nature and capitalist society. Once authority was in place it's a whole other ball game."

Ok, so violence and wars didn't exist before capitalism. Animals don't fight to defend their territory, or over mates. The native tribes never fought with one another, and all lived in perfect harmony. Makes perfect sense.

"Are you seriously trying to suggest the same proportion of the population were dying in wars in 50,000 BC as they did in the twentieth century? Nonsense."

Why is it nonsense? What evidence to you have to back that up? Or is this one of those cases when logic is irrelevant and I should be just _feeling_ the answer?

"By your logic it must be human nature for people to be terrified of drugs."

No, I'm talking about being afraid of strange people. When someone drastically different comes into an isolated group, the initial reaction is fear and distrust. This is a survival mechanism, if trust were automatic, it would be damn easy to dupe anyone into anything.

"Xenophobia has been characteristic of human societies, as well as lions, wolves, hyenas, and other social animals, basically, it's competition for space and resources."
- evolutionary biologist Jared Diamond of the University of California at Los Angeles


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Liberalism [Re: Phluck]
    #1092766 - 11/28/02 01:45 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)

Ok, so violence and wars didn't exist before capitalism.

Yep, that's pretty much the size of it. Before the rise of agriculture and the ability to hoard food there was no reason for war.

The native tribes never fought with one another, and all lived in perfect harmony. Makes perfect sense.

If you arn't hoarding food tell me what reason there is to fight another hunter-gatherer band? You have everything to lose and nothing to gain. Bands of 30 cannot afford to be getting members injured and killed every week. They would rapidly become extinct. Every human band had around 100,000 square miles. Territory wasn't an issue.

No, I'm talking about being afraid of strange people.

Yeah but what are you basing this on? All the experts i've heard speaking on early man explained that the main characteristic to strangers was friendliness and sharing - even to the point of going hungry yourself. It strengthened the group to have other people's knowledge.

You might have racism and xenophobia now but that's got nothing to do with human nature, just like peoples atitudes to drugs now have absolutely nothing to do with human nature.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: Liberalism [Re: Xlea321]
    #1092893 - 11/28/02 02:18 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)

In reply to:

Before the rise of agriculture and the ability to hoard food there was no reason for war.



You're apparently not aware of our closet relatives, the chimpanzees, and how they have been observed murdering each other.

In reply to:

If you arn't hoarding food tell me what reason there is to fight another hunter-gatherer band?



Territory, taking females, stealing food that others have gathered instead of gathering it yourself.

In reply to:

Bands of 30 cannot afford to be getting members injured and killed every week.



Every week? Why would conflicts be happening on a weekly basis?

In reply to:

Every human band had around 100,000 square miles. Territory wasn't an issue.



How do you know this? This is pure speculation.

In reply to:

All the experts i've heard speaking on early man explained that the main characteristic to strangers was friendliness and sharing - even to the point of going hungry yourself. It strengthened the group to have other people's knowledge.



What 'experts'? How do they come to these conclusions? Did they travell back in time and observe the people?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Anonymous

Re: Liberalism [Re: Xlea321]
    #1092929 - 11/28/02 02:44 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)

Your argument is that Agriculture destroyed HUMAN NATURE!!!

Are you for real? Everything that MAN does is HUMAN NATURE. Humans are complex. Murder is as human as LOVE. BOTH are done out of self interest.

When a man jumps into a freezing river to save another man, I assure you he does so for his own best interest. "What if that was me"!! When someone is a serial killer, they do so out of self-interest. When somone gives money to the poor, the do so out of self interest. When someone robs from the poor they do so out of self interest.

THEY ONLY CONSTANT IS SELF-INTEREST. What makes you feel good is your CHOICE. Apparently not everyone feels good about the same things. Your notion is to FORCE YOUR idea of FEEL GOOD LIVING UPON OTHERS. That is what socialism is!!! You don't get a say in what you do all day long for the rest of your life. If it isn't in the best interest of the whole, it is outlawed. What makes matters worse, is even under your IDEAL SYSTEM, it can't neutralize the fact that people have different notions of what is good for them(individual). This leads to corruption, and hence the SOVIET UNION, CHINA, CUBA. What starts off as a great idea becomes as corrupt as any other idea, except you gave up your INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM for the GOOD of the WHOLE, and you still don't get that UTOPIA.

HUMAN nature is complex. It can't be reduced or controlled. The best you can do is to try and remain free to act on your own self-interest, because in the end, that is what everyone will be doing. It is best to do so under a free system, and not a socialist one.

Don't you want to be able to choose what you work at. Under a pure socialist system, you will be doing what you are best at, not neccessarily what you WANT to be doing. If I am a math whiz, that is what I will have to do, because it is best for the WHOLE of society. What if I would rather be a artist? I would no longer have a choice, because society has decided that I would better serve the whole as a MATH person.

I don't want to be a BORG. I want to be ME. I want to live as free as possible to do what I want to do. The only limitations to that freedom, have been slowly implemented by society one law at a time. Each of those laws can be questioned by every citizen. No law can remain a law if a significant amount of the population, not a majority, organizes itself into a single voice, and uses it within the system. That doesn't mean singing " Give peace a chance" in front of congress, it means LOBBYING your point of view. Using your potential votes, and accumulated funds to make sure your ELECTED officials vote your way. IF all that fails, it is because your VIEWS are not shared by an even STRONGER LOBBY.

Lobbies are simply communal votes and funds. Even your evil corporations are people to. Private citizens, unlike your DREAM WORLD, in which the STATE will own everything, including YOU.


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InvisibleCaptain Jack
i [heart] you

Registered: 01/24/00
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Re: Liberalism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1092944 - 11/28/02 02:54 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)

when a conservative refuses to believe that it is impossible for someone to be smart and liberal (or vice versa) i tend to stop paying attention to them.

as much as i like to insult people who disagree with me, refusing to believe that smart people can think in a way that is different than your own is ignorant.
sorry.



--------------------
-
Captain Jack has been hailed as a brilliant scholar, discredited as a brilliant fraud, and mistaken for a much taller man on several occasions.


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
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Re: Liberalism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1093139 - 11/28/02 04:27 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)

"My contention is that Man is not capable of making a perfect world. There has
never been an idea that originated from Man that was able to lift the human race completely out of it's depravity, and there never will be. That is why liberalism is oftentimes an exercise in futility."

Wow! can I borrow your time machine dude!


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Liberalism [Re: Captain Jack]
    #1093251 - 11/28/02 05:59 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)

Thats the most intelligent thing thats been said in this entire thread.


BTW Teonan, Dont think just because you may act purely out of self interest that the whole of humanity follows suit!


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Liberalism [Re: ]
    #1093254 - 11/28/02 06:09 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)

All this "I want to be me" stuff just sounds like ego attachment to me.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Liberalism [Re: Xlea321]
    #1093368 - 11/28/02 09:46 AM (19 years, 8 days ago)

I'm not even going to bother anymore, you might as well be trying to tell me cows can fly. You have absolutely no evidence to back up what you're saying, and you're operating on assumptions that don't come from any sort of logical reasoning.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Liberalism [Re: Phluck]
    #1093376 - 11/28/02 10:04 AM (19 years, 8 days ago)

In reply to:

You have absolutely no evidence to back up what you're saying, and you're operating on assumptions that don't come from any sort of logical reasoning




As a neutral observer i'd say u r about even on that score!


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Liberalism [Re: ]
    #1093425 - 11/28/02 11:28 AM (19 years, 8 days ago)

Your argument is that Agriculture destroyed HUMAN NATURE!!!

Actually I'm saying the complete opposite. After 5000 years of a system based on a perverted system of minority control of the majority, a system based around being selfish and greedy and not considering your fellow man, even after 5000 years of that people by and large still prefer helping each other.

Indeed the capitalist system appears to leave people even more depressed than ever. We all seem to know that looking out for number one, being selfish and greedy doesn't make us happy. That gives you a pretty powerful insight into the reality of human nature.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Liberalism [Re: Phluck]
    #1093430 - 11/28/02 11:32 AM (19 years, 8 days ago)

you might as well be trying to tell me cows can fly.

I'd gathered that. Your mind is already made up right?

You have absolutely no evidence to back up what you're saying, and you're operating on assumptions that don't come from any sort of logical reasoning.

Apart from pretty much every anthropologist and expert on early human behaviour on earth saying the same thing. Humans lived in bands of around 30 - that's all hunter-gatherer systems can provide for. You start making war and your men are injured and die off rapidly. With fewer hunters, hunter-gatherer bands quickly die out as they have little food stored for emergencies. It's totally logical and the best explanation for why humans to this day still feel better when they help each other than when they kill each other.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Liberalism [Re: Captain Jack]
    #1093452 - 11/28/02 11:48 AM (19 years, 8 days ago)

when a conservative refuses to believe that it is impossible for someone to be smart and liberal (or vice versa) i tend to stop paying attention to them.

Admittedly, there are some very smart liberals. And by the way, I am not a conservative.


as much as i like to insult people who disagree with me, refusing to believe that smart people can think in a way that is different than your own is ignorant.
sorry.


I never said that all liberal's are stupid. If you read through all of my posts you would see that I was describing three different kinds of liberals(slight, moderate, and extreme). I chastised the slight liberal's for their laziness. I respect the moderate liberal's intelligence, but I disagree with them. And, I have disdain for the extreme liberals because of their extremism. Extreme conservatives are just as bad(fascists, religious and racial supremacists, etc..) as extreme liberals.

I really need to write a "Reasons why I distrust the Right-Wing", so all of you people will not think that I am some conservative wacko who has a beef against liberals.


RandalFlagg


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Liberalism [Re: Xlea321]
    #1093814 - 11/28/02 02:44 PM (19 years, 8 days ago)

"Apart from pretty much every anthropologist and expert on early human behaviour on earth saying the same thing."

They aren't saying that there were no battles. I could ask you to provide me with something to back that up with, but I know you'll just ignore that.


"Humans lived in bands of around 30 - that's all hunter-gatherer systems can provide for."

Yeah, that's true.

"You start making war and your men are injured and die off rapidly."

So far so good...

"With fewer hunters, hunter-gatherer bands quickly die out as they have little food stored for emergencies."

Okay, true as well. Of course this doesn't back up your theory that there wasn't any war. It just shows that the tribes that were smarter and better at war were the ones that survivied.

It's human nature to help one another, but it's also human nature to fight.

Would you care to address the issue of why people fight over girls? Or over various possessions? Or over insults? Did none of these issues exist back then?

Just because killing someone might make you feel bad, it doesn't mean it's not human nature.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Liberalism [Re: GazzBut]
    #1093833 - 11/28/02 02:49 PM (19 years, 8 days ago)

"As a neutral observer i'd say u r about even on that score!"

So my theory that people did fight before capitalism existed has no basis?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Liberalism [Re: Phluck]
    #1093983 - 11/28/02 03:26 PM (19 years, 8 days ago)

They aren't saying that there were no battles.

What kind of a battle do you get between groups of 30? Even if one group did want to fight, the other side has 100,000 square miles to move on to. Why would they fight "wars" in a situation like this? What benefit to them would war be? They can't steal anything because hunter-gatherers don't store food. So you are risking your hunters getting injured, which means they can't hunt, which means the tribe quickly starves and dies, for absolutely nothing.

Would you care to address the issue of why people fight over girls?

Well, are we discussing wars or aggression? People obviously have the potential for aggression because they are meat-eaters and you can't kill an animal by making nasty comments to it - you have to hit it. Small groups can deal with aggression in a healthy way. In a group of 30 people everyone offers something and is important. It's not like modern day capitalism where the president can order 30,000 americans to go and die in a war and know the next day there'll be another 30,000 strangers to replace them. That's when you get wars, when the minority at the top are completely seperate to the people they command.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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