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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
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Re: Liberalism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1073348 - 11/21/02 12:05 PM (19 years, 22 days ago)

A liberals view on society is one that seems to not respect an individual's right

Strange, I've always thought the exact opposite. What aspect of individuality are you talking about? Would the far right be more willing to let us use drugs than liberals?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Liberalism [Re: Xlea321]
    #1073380 - 11/21/02 12:18 PM (19 years, 22 days ago)

A liberals view on society is one that seems to not respect an individual's right

Strange, I've always thought the exact opposite. What aspect of individuality are you talking about? Would the far right be more willing to let us use drugs than liberals?

It's weird. The Left and liberals are always talking about freedom and how people should be free to say whatever they want, do whatever they want, be liberated, etc.. But, when it comes to viewpoints that differ from their own, they tend to be just as intolerant as conservatives.

I guess my point is that when people have ideological or religious beliefs, they tend to view the world with a tinged bias.

RandalFlagg


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Liberalism [Re: Xlea321]
    #1073475 - 11/21/02 12:59 PM (19 years, 22 days ago)

Alex123 writes:

I think you're confusing human nature with the current state of society. If you'd been living in Nazi germany in 1938 you would have assumed human nature was dressing up in black shirts and kicking jews. You would have been equally wrong then.

You originally wrote: "Our natural trait is to share and help each other". I agreed with you, then asked WHY, if this is our natural tendency, is it necessary to FORCE people to share and help each other? What is the connection with Nazi thugs?

As Bill Hicks said "You are free to do as we tell you".

What has that got to do with Capitalism?

History says for the vast majority of human existence we lived in small communities based around sharing and caring for each other.

You don't know that to be true. NO ONE knows that to be true.

Don't confuse "history" with "the last hundred years".

Don't confuse history (by definition that period of time for which there are records, either verbal or pictorial) with "pre-history", for which there are no records but plenty of competing plausible and semi-plausible speculations.

No-one knows what society will be like in 5000 years time.

No one knows what society was like in North America five thousand years ago.

Tell that to the people of Flint, Michigan.

What does that non sequitur mean? Are you saying that not only must a business create a job, but it must maintain that job in the same location for the rest of time?

pinky


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Liberalism [Re: Xlea321]
    #1073497 - 11/21/02 01:05 PM (19 years, 22 days ago)

In reply to:

A liberals view on society is one that seems to not respect an individual's right

Strange, I've always thought the exact opposite. What aspect of individuality are you talking about? Would the far right be more willing to let us use drugs than liberals?



Socialists oppose private ownership of lots of property and business for starters. Personally, you want to take away my freedom to bear arms. All you liberals really want to do is take away personal freedom and personal responsibility.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Liberalism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1073531 - 11/21/02 01:20 PM (19 years, 22 days ago)

It's weird. The Left and liberals are always talking about freedom and how people should be free to say whatever they want, do whatever they want, be liberated, etc.. But, when it comes to viewpoints that differ from their own, they tend to be just as intolerant as conservatives.

The Lefties are only in favor of individual freedom when it comes to the FRINGE issues, such as what drug you put in your body or what body part you insert into another's bodily receptacle or whether you can burn a flag or call the president a Nazi. They allow you to exercise your rights in these areas because they realize that in terms of power, these areas are meaningless.

However, when it comes to the CORE issues of human existence, such as whose effort enables which individual to continue existing, they are unanimous in their conviction that individual freedom no longer applies; only The Collective has the wisdom to determine how one may make a living, and The Collective has a moral obligation to force individuals to do what The Collective has determined to be "The Right Thing".

This is why, when it comes to raw powerlust, Leftists are more savvy and far more dangerous than Rightists. The Right expends all its time and effort battling irrelevancies such as whether or not two guys living together should be able to adopt a child or whether eaters of mushrooms should be jailed for a year or for five years or whether it makes a difference if schoolkids say the pledge of allegiance -- while the Lefties go straight to the heart of the matter and establish a stranglehold on that which allows humans to exist -- human effort.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Liberalism [Re: Phred]
    #1073649 - 11/21/02 02:03 PM (19 years, 22 days ago)

I agreed with you, then asked WHY, if this is our natural tendency, is it necessary to FORCE people to share and help each other?

What force do you mean? Does someone have to force you to give you son a candy bar? If a guy collapsed in front of you would you need to be "forced" to help him? What are you talking about?

with "pre-history", for which there are no records but plenty of competing plausible and semi-plausible speculations.

Clearly some have far more evidence than others.

Are you saying that not only must a business create a job

Governments can create jobs too. And create stable communities together with those jobs. Creating jobs isn't some magical thing the free-marketeers made up you know.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Liberalism [Re: Phred]
    #1073658 - 11/21/02 02:06 PM (19 years, 22 days ago)

The Right expends all its time and effort battling irrelevancies such as whether or not two guys living together

I think they're spending a little more time planning how to blow the fuck out of little brown people and make sky-high profits from someone else's land and oil at the moment.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Liberalism [Re: Phred]
    #1073761 - 11/21/02 02:47 PM (19 years, 22 days ago)

"The most common unifying attributes among them is the willingness to work long hours, the willingness to take risks, and the intelligence to make mostly correct decisions and few incorrect decisions in a business context."

Some more attributes might be a lack of compassion, shiftiness, and lack of empathy. It's hard to turn a profit if you care about your workers.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Liberalism [Re: Phluck]
    #1073772 - 11/21/02 02:51 PM (19 years, 22 days ago)

In western society, success is equated with personal gain, as opposed to how much you have helped others.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Liberalism [Re: Phluck]
    #1073819 - 11/21/02 03:04 PM (19 years, 22 days ago)

Some more attributes might be a lack of compassion, shiftiness, and lack of empathy. It's hard to turn a profit if you care about your workers.

It is not necessary to lack compassion and empathy in order to become wealthy, nor is it necessary to be "shifty", whatever that means.

Phluck, your posts display a strange dichotomy. In the majority of your posts you demonstrate your ability to think logically and reject dogma. In others, like this one, you exhibit a textbook ideological knee-jerk response: it is impossible to be successful without screwing someone over. I am curious as to why sometimes you just seem to lose your objectivity completely.

Surely you are aware that most well-off individuals (the majority of American millionaires, as an example) become wealthy through legal, ethical means, never harming ANYONE along the way.

It's hard to turn a profit if you care about your workers.

That is just nonsense. MacLean's magazine just ran an article on Canada's Top 100 Companies to work for. Dig up a copy and read it. All of those businesses are profitable, some of them exceptionally so.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Liberalism [Re: Phred]
    #1074376 - 11/21/02 05:36 PM (19 years, 22 days ago)

Surely you are aware that most well-off individuals (the majority of American millionaires, as an example) become wealthy through legal, ethical means, never harming ANYONE along the way.

Care to name one of these wonderful caring corporations? Is the boss of Nike a caring sharing kind of guy? (perhaps when he isn't making 10 year olds work 36 hour shifts for 50 cents a day perhaps?)

That is just nonsense.

Don't be ridiculous. You don't see Nike desperate to improve the conditions of the kids they're using as slave labour. It would cut down profits.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Liberalism [Re: Phred]
    #1074628 - 11/21/02 07:27 PM (19 years, 22 days ago)

"It is impossible to be successful without screwing someone over."

Hey, I never said that. Being ruthless will certainly help you make money. Someone who can deceive and cheat another person without feeling remorse will most certainly have more success as a businessman. In my experience, the best salesmen are smooth, quick talkers.

Advertising, for instance, a staple of successful business, and inherantly deceptive in nature.

Sure, you don't HAVE to be sleazy in order to succeed, but it's certainly not going to hold you back.

"Surely you are aware that most well-off individuals (the majority of American millionaires, as an example) become wealthy through legal, ethical means, never harming ANYONE along the way."

Legal, probably (although take a look at say, WorldCom, Enron, etc...), ethical? Maybe. You can't possibly tell me that you know their entire history.

"MacLean's magazine just ran an article on Canada's Top 100 Companies to work for."

Sure, there are lots of companies that are good to work for and turn a profit. When you need well educated and experienced workers, you treat them well, they're harder to come by. When you need someone to work in a factory, restaurant, or wherever, they're expendable. You can treat them like shit, pay them minimum wage, and it doesn't really matter because they easy to find.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineMsPacMan
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Re: Liberalism [Re: Phluck]
    #1075791 - 11/22/02 03:59 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

Anarchy is the answer.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Liberalism [Re: MsPacMan]
    #1089329 - 11/27/02 01:11 AM (19 years, 16 days ago)

Ah...Anarchy. The extreme Left's unattainable utopian dream.

I certainly am not trying to attack or hurt anybody's feelings with the following post. But, it just gushed out of me like a river and I don't think it would be appropriate to tone it down.

Extreme liberals tend to fall into one of two categories. The first contains people who are woefully misinformed and who engage in a slogan-filled and jingoistic exercise of their beliefs. The second contains people who are usually educated beyond their intelligence. They are oftentimes misguided sophists who engage in esoteric and pedantic intellectual masturbation when they immerse themselves in their ideas and theories.

The more extreme a liberal gets, the more pronounced their simultaneous acerbic pessimism and hopeless idealism is. They distrust any institution that they deem as having power and influence, whether it be a government, organized religion, a corporation, or anything else. They are almost always viciously disdainful of religious ideas of any type. They view them as backward fairy tales that keep the masses brainwashed and confined to a certain way of thinking, which serves the people who are in power. Yet many of the most extreme liberals seem to have
obsessive utopian hopes for mankind. They think that if only the institutions, attitudes, and policies that they deem are self-serving, exploitative, and ignorant would melt away, everyone would magically become happy and free. As if people will live in peace and harmony with no authority in place to maintain some amount of guaranteed social safety and order(a statement full of sarcasm).


RandalFlagg


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Liberalism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1089375 - 11/27/02 01:42 AM (19 years, 16 days ago)

As if people will live in peace and harmony with no authority in place to maintain some amount of guaranteed social safety and order(a statement full of sarcasm).

Well people managed it for 99.9% of human history. For the vast majority of history people lived in bands of no more than 30 in complete anarchist peace, sharing everything equally. Anarchism is clearly the natural state of human existence. It was only since the rise of agriculture when people were able to start hoarding food - which required the creation of armies and authority to keep the minority rich that anarchism faded away. Perhaps this is why the world gets more and more violent and miserable every century - we need to get back to the natural human state of anarchism.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Liberalism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1089426 - 11/27/02 02:06 AM (19 years, 16 days ago)

"Ah...Anarchy. The extreme Left's unattainable utopian dream."

Anarchy would be pretty fucking right wing. Sort of the libertarian unattainable utopian dream. Come to think of it, libertarians right now are kind of like what communists were like 100 years ago. A new political movement with a naive new set of ideas that won't work when put into practice. Maybe the militia redneck NRA goofs will revolt, shatter the structure of the society, and eventually reduce the US to what Russia is today.

There is so much dogma attached to what political side you fit on. You can't simply pick and choose your stance on different issues, you've got to choose one side and stick with it.

Leftists sit there, completely ignorant of their hypocrisy, and accuse conservatives of being a bunch of dogmatic buffoons. Then the right-wingers are right there doing exactly the same thing.

The stupidest thing, is when these idiots get into an argument, they use the fact that a certain stance is part of the opposing side's dogma as an argument against it.

"That's libbie-communist pinko bullshit!"
or
"That's jesus-lovin' Nazi bullshit!

Always got to toss in a reference to an oppressive regime associated with their particular belief system too, that always shatters their argument.

"Make abortion illegal?! You NAZI! What are you going to do next, start rounding up the jews?"

If you can't come up with a actual argument against a certain issue, then why do you even have an opinion?

I know that I fit, for the most part, into the leftist school of thought. I'm also aware that I'm guilty of the dogmatic bullshit sometimes as well. It's fucking bullshit, and I'm trying to stop.

People need to stop making choices based on what their supposed to believe if they want to be loyal to their political party or whatever, and start using logic and common sense.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Liberalism [Re: Xlea321]
    #1089435 - 11/27/02 02:12 AM (19 years, 16 days ago)

"For the vast majority of history people lived in bands of no more than 30 in complete anarchist peace, sharing everything equally."

Ah, the smell of fresh bullshit. All it took for the clubbing and rock throwing to begin, was for one of these clans to run into another one. It probably didn't even take that, undoubtably fights broke out between clan members every now and then. As for having an average lifespan of 15-20 years, well I've gotta tell you, that would suck dick.

We may have lived in anarchy for 99.9% of our history, that doesn't mean it was pleasant.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Liberalism [Re: Xlea321]
    #1089467 - 11/27/02 02:19 AM (19 years, 16 days ago)

"Perhaps this is why the world gets more and more violent and miserable every century - we need to get back to the natural human state of anarchism. "

The world is getting more violent and miserable with each century? What kind of fucking logic is that based on? Do you know anything at all about ancient history?

Do you think the Nazis invented genocide? I mean, sure, they killed a whole lot of jews, they were really good at that, but they just weren't that innovative.

The only difference now is that these things happen on a large scale. They don't happen on a large scale because everything is worse nowadays, it's because there's more people.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Liberalism [Re: Phluck]
    #1090598 - 11/27/02 11:20 AM (19 years, 16 days ago)

"Ah...Anarchy. The extreme Left's unattainable utopian dream."


Anarchy would be pretty fucking right wing. Sort of the libertarian unattainable utopian dream. Come to think of it, libertarians right now are kind of like what communists were like 100 years ago. A new political movement with a naive new set of ideas that won't work when put into practice. Maybe the militia redneck NRA goofs will revolt, shatter the structure of the society, and eventually reduce the US to what Russia is today.


Anarchist dreams are prevalent in the extreme Left wing and in the libertarian side (which could be categorized as a right-wingish political stance) of things.


There is so much dogma attached to what political side you fit on. You can't simply pick and choose your stance on different issues, you've got to choose one side and stick with it.


There is dogma in every system of beliefs. That is why I reject them all. I try to objectively examine individual topics with my own interpretation that is based on my own judgement and wisdom.


Leftists sit there, completely ignorant of their hypocrisy, and accuse conservatives of being a bunch of dogmatic buffoons. Then the right-wingers are right there doing exactly the same thing.

The stupidest thing, is when these idiots get into an argument, they use the fact that a certain stance is part of the opposing side's dogma as an argument against it.

"That's libbie-communist pinko bullshit!"
or
"That's jesus-lovin' Nazi bullshit!

Always got to toss in a reference to an oppressive regime associated with their particular belief system too, that always shatters their argument.

"Make abortion illegal?! You NAZI! What are you going to do next, start rounding up the jews?"



Right-wingers can be (and oftentimes are) worse than left-wingers in the dogma department. Maybe I should write a quick essay detailing their weaknesses.

RandalFlagg




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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Liberalism [Re: Phluck]
    #1090668 - 11/27/02 11:55 AM (19 years, 16 days ago)

It probably didn't even take that, undoubtably fights broke out between clan members every now and then.

Sorry man but that's just total horseshit. The average human grouping had around 100,000 square miles each. They had no hoarding of food and absolutely no reason to fight. All the evidence points to any encounters between groups being based on sharing and helping.

Don't believe everything you see on 2001 a space oddysey. Read up a bit on early human history.

The world is getting more violent and miserable with each century? What kind of fucking logic is that based on? Do you know anything at all about ancient history?

What the fuck are you talking about? The twentieth century was the most violent in human history. There's no question about that. What do you call ancient history? 5000 years ago? The human race is a lot older than that. For the vast majority of our existence we lived hunter gatherer lifestyles which made warfare redundant.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


Edited by Alex123 (11/27/02 12:02 PM)


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