Home | Community | Message Board

KykeonAnalytics.com
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   North Spore Bulk Substrate   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   OlympusMyco.com Olympus Myco Bulk Substrate   Mushroom-Hut Substrate Mix   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2  [ show all ]
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
OfflineRoseM
Devil's Advocate
Female User Gallery


Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Trusted Cultivator
Composting for Dummies * 2
    #10673658 - 07/14/09 06:04 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

How would one go about making mushroom compost? Once fully composted, isn't all home grown compost the same?

I'd love y'all to read my theory and add your thoughts and experiences.

There are a ton of threads here at The Shroomery, about composting... and most of them seem a bit outdated and ring of misinformation. The rest seem to make the process MUCH more difficult than I suspect it really is. Very few if any threads actually show a person's success when growing on their own home grown compost.

It seems to me that composting may be even more rewarding than poo, since composting is basically man's way of helping nature partially digest plant matter... where poo is a cow or horse's way of doing the same thing. 

The thing is; few people have horses or cows. More people have yards, autumn leaves, vegetable waste, and lawn trimmings.

Most of the compost recipes on this website call for poo... but is poo really needed? Isn't compost... well compost?

Compost happens naturally, but humans can speed the process up by making a compost pile (humans make compost piles better than nature does) and by keeping the pile moist (humans can water a pile regularly... nature is a turkey shoot) .

A compost pile allows for many microorganisms to process the plant material and turn it into compost more quickly. If the pile is large enough, the organisms will heat the middle of the pile to temps close to 150 degrees.

By mixing the compost pile, a human can speed the process further. Mixing puts new material into the hot center of the pile... thus aiding the natural process.

With regular maintenance, you can make your own compost in less than a season... and you're recycling your own yard waste.

To make compost quickly, it is important to have roughly a 50/50 mix of brown material (leaves, twigs... etc) and green material (grass trimmings, greens... etc).

I understand that this 50/50 balance can speed things up, but even if you don't have a perfect 50/50 mix... it will turn into compost eventually. Once it is fully composted, does it really matter what it was before it became compost?

Again, isn't compost... compost?

Make a pile, keep it moist, and turn it/fluff it every few days (or more often if you wish) until it turns into brown/black earthy-smelling stuff... and you're good to go. Right?

Pasteurize... then get it to field capacity and you're good to go.

What am I missing?


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


Edited by Rose (07/14/09 06:21 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDoc_T
Random Dude
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado Flag
Re: Composting for Dummies [Re: Rose] * 1
    #10673748 - 07/14/09 06:49 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

The starter microbes come from the poo, I believe. Without a source of poo, you'll have to supplement those somehow.


--------------------
You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMik
Desert Fox


Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 181
Last seen: 8 years, 5 months
Re: Composting for Dummies [Re: Doc_T] * 1
    #10673821 - 07/14/09 07:31 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Doc_T said:
The starter microbes come from the poo, I believe. Without a source of poo, you'll have to supplement those somehow.



Humans poop, right?

I'm kidding kids. Dont to this.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePsilosophy
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 73
Last seen: 4 years, 27 days
Re: Composting for Dummies [Re: Mik] * 2
    #10673834 - 07/14/09 07:37 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I started a compost pile with.. compost!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDoc_T
Random Dude
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado Flag
Re: Composting for Dummies [Re: Mik] * 1
    #10673928 - 07/14/09 08:12 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Mik said:
Quote:

Doc_T said:
The starter microbes come from the poo, I believe. Without a source of poo, you'll have to supplement those somehow.



Humans poop, right?

I'm kidding kids. Dont to this.




Well, people poo is out for a number of reasons.
But I don't think you'd need much poo if it was fresh- you might be able to get some pigeon poo or something similar, just by shoveling it up into a bag.


--------------------
You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinej_sun
?

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 57
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
Re: Composting for Dummies [Re: Doc_T] * 1
    #10674233 - 07/14/09 09:36 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

If your looking to start  a new compost pit your best bet would be to just get a bag of finished composted manure from your local home supercenter.  It will be full of beneficial microorganisms ready to consume your lawn and food waste. I compost as much as I can for my veg gardens and have just started a few tubs up for vermiculture (worms).  Worms kick our butt at composting plus you get casings for free!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOlgualion
Shaman-In-Training
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/13/01
Posts: 1,253
Loc: Currently Earth...
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Composting for Dummies [Re: Rose] * 1
    #10674408 - 07/14/09 10:25 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Not all composts are the same!  Many factors are involved, such as what goes into it and just what breaks it down.

In TMC it says that the purpose of composting is to create a nutritious environment capable of selectively sustaining mushroom mycelium while at the same time making the environment unsuitable for competitor organisms(paraphrased).

The main ingredient in this type of composting is straw (wheat generally preferred).  In TMC, stable bedding is stated as being a preferred starting material.  It says 30-40% of the droppings are comprised of living microorganisms which accelerate the composting process.  To this supplements are added in a specific proportion of carbon:nitrogen.

It is a pretty precise procedure that yields a very selective compost.

With that said, I'm sure that if you added and did the right things to your compost pile it would work well.

I've always wanted to make a worm bin to have worms compost my waste food and stuff.  I've heard that worm castings work well as a bulk substrate/ supplement, but have never tried it myself.

Good luck


--------------------
Study the past...
See the future...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRoseM
Devil's Advocate
Female User Gallery


Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Composting for Dummies [Re: Olgualion] * 1
    #10675448 - 07/14/09 01:53 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Olgualion said:
To this supplements are added in a specific proportion of carbon:nitrogen.

It is a pretty precise procedure that yields a very selective compost.





Damn good to see you Olg!

Now what you said about nitrogen and carbon is exactly what I said about 50/50 brown/green. Browns are carbon based, greens are nitrogen based (or vice versa).

TMC  just makes the process sound much more difficult than I suspect it actually is.

I suspect home compost (even without poo) is good compost, and I intend to do some experiments to see if I am on to something.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


Edited by Rose (07/14/09 01:59 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRoseM
Devil's Advocate
Female User Gallery


Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Composting for Dummies [Re: Doc_T] * 1
    #10675478 - 07/14/09 01:56 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Doc_T said:
The starter microbes come from the poo, I believe. Without a source of poo, you'll have to supplement those somehow.




Wind provides the microbes.

It may take LESS time, if you start with some poo... but eventually, everything you need to break it down, will find its way into the pile.

People don't introduce firefang into their horse fields... firefang finds the poo. Same goes for a compost pile. Once you have an active pile, you have all the microbes you'll ever need.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLennyk
D-O-L-E Dole
Male

Registered: 04/22/08
Posts: 2,385
Loc: Near the Ground
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: Composting for Dummies [Re: Rose] * 1
    #10675538 - 07/14/09 02:06 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Could always pick up one of those turnable ones for a couple hundred bucks (not cheap but work fast and easy) or bury some trash cans with holes in the bottom and put the stuff in there until it breaks down. Proper ratios I didn't remember when I looked it up one day, as I don't use the compost, I simply do it to eliminate the waste from the landfill. I chuck the stuff when done in the woods in the hopes of one day enriching the soil enough to grow where the clay is packed down.


--------------------
Stealth Lighting 
Cubensis benefits beyond cluster headaches
Mush Extract! (You can even use Vinegar!)
Flame your needle in style with a sexy mini butane torch
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What happens in the Romper Room, stays in the Romper Room.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All posts are written by the sex deprived helper monkey Curious George.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRoseM
Devil's Advocate
Female User Gallery


Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Composting for Dummies [Re: Lennyk] * 1
    #10675673 - 07/14/09 02:30 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I have a working compost pile too... and, like you, I haven't been able to use it to do much but recondition clay-like soil with it.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOlgualion
Shaman-In-Training
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/13/01
Posts: 1,253
Loc: Currently Earth...
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Composting for Dummies [Re: Rose] * 1
    #10675681 - 07/14/09 02:31 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Nice to see you too Cervantes! :smile:

I worry that the final composts structure and nutrient makeup are related to the method used to produce it.  There are certain types of bacteria that are selectively propogated within strict temperature ranges during the process Stamets talks about in TMC.  I wonder if your idea will produce these necessary bacteria and if your end product will be just capable of supporting mycelial growth and fruiting at 60% BE or will it be a wonderful substrate that encourages prolific fruiting at 150% BE.

I myself have never composted, but like I said, I'd love to try a wormbin one day.

I wish an awesome compost could be created in our backyards!  I'd definitely do it!  I am very curious to see your results, and wish you success Cervantes!


--------------------
Study the past...
See the future...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRoseM
Devil's Advocate
Female User Gallery


Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Composting for Dummies [Re: Olgualion] * 1
    #10675925 - 07/14/09 03:18 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Once people started using coir as a bulk substrate, I started to wonder about yard compost. Coir certainly doesn't go through a composting process... no microbes are added... it works.

I have to imagine yard compost is better than coir... even if it is not perfect.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLennyk
D-O-L-E Dole
Male

Registered: 04/22/08
Posts: 2,385
Loc: Near the Ground
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: Composting for Dummies [Re: Rose] * 1
    #10676247 - 07/14/09 04:18 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
Once people started using coir as a bulk substrate, I started to wonder about yard compost. Coir certainly doesn't go through a composting process... no microbes are added... it works.

I have to imagine yard compost is better than coir... even if it is not perfect.





Agar always said a good compost was number 1, while coir was a close 3rd.

Good compost would save money in the end as coir isn't free... but coir would defiantly beat composting in a city apartment, and although I have the great outdoors to use being pretty rural, I lately just use the rez effect with birdseed or crumble cakes to trays and let them go since I ran out of coir.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleNuminosum
President of Turd Town
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 1,175
Re: Composting for Dummies [Re: Lennyk] * 1
    #10676287 - 07/14/09 04:26 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Hmmm I have a compost pile! maybe I should put something small together.


--------------------
...within my memory is the knowledge of hyper-light drive ships and how to build them.



Doc_T's Efficiency Challenge

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRoseM
Devil's Advocate
Female User Gallery


Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Composting for Dummies [Re: Lennyk] * 1
    #10676549 - 07/14/09 05:09 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Lennyk said:

Agar always said a good compost was number 1, while coir was a close 3rd.






Agar has a great recipe for compost too (man, I miss him)... but I'd rather not have to buy things to put in the compost. That kinda' defeats the purpose of a compost pile.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRoseM
Devil's Advocate
Female User Gallery


Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Composting for Dummies [Re: Numinosum] * 1
    #10676555 - 07/14/09 05:10 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Numinosum said:
Hmmm I have a compost pile! maybe I should put something small together.





If you do, let me know how it goes.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRoseM
Devil's Advocate
Female User Gallery


Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Composting for Dummies [Re: Rose] * 1
    #10684597 - 07/15/09 08:58 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I just did my first test. I collected some compost from my poo-less compost heap, put it in a large plastic container and sealed it.

When I open the lid and stick my hand inside, it is 10-20 degrees warmer inside the bin than it is outside the bin.

The microbes are definitely working... I just don't know if they are the best possible microbes for cube growth.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
Re: Composting for Dummies [Re: Rose] * 1
    #10710916 - 07/20/09 05:41 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Hey bro,

How ya been?

Quote:

Cervantes said:
How would one go about making mushroom compost?




--------------------
The only major difference I see in regular compost piles and compost piles intended for mycology is the addition of gypsum for mycological compost...however, sulfur is a major hindrance and killer of microbes so I would not suggest adding it to a compost pile as Penn State suggests.  Penn State suggests adding gypsum because it is a flocculating agent used to prevent greasiness of compost and make it more granule in structure[1].

Besides gypsum, compost piles intended for mycology tend to have carbohydrate heavy items mixed in like cottonseed meal, corn cobs, etc.
----------------------


To make compost one needs to worry about two important factors:

1. Moisture content of materials, this effects of % carbon available.[2]

2. Carbon to Nitrogen ratio (25:1 to 40:1 is ideal, most people shoot for 30:1)

The process of designing a compost pile is lost on most people.  It's really easy but requires a bit of forethought and easy math.  Basically what you do is find the C:N ratio of the materials you want to make compost with ("green" and "brown" matter).  Then you use those figures along with approximate moisture content to calculate a C:N ratio of about 30:1.

Other factors of importance are pile temperature, it has to reach thermal death temperatures to kill harmful microbes and begin the composting process.  Along with temperature concerns using well shredded materials is wise and mixing them very well will speed the process.  And lastly, your pile should be at least 3'x3'x3' for ideal composting with chicken wire walls (or anything which allow air to pass)...

Horse manure is a great material for compost, as is fresh (green - nitrogen) and aged (brown - carbon) yard clippings and kitchen scrapes, old brown paper bags, etc, etc.

Here are some links which offer basic info and how to calculate C:N ratio and lists of C:N ratios for common materials used in composting:

-- "The Carbon:Nitrogen ratio"

This article has good info and tells you step by step how to calculate C:N for your pile.  This article will be basically all you need to calculate the C:N ratios
http://www.organicgardening.com/feature/0,7518,s1-5-21-112,00.html


-- "Compost Fundamentals: carbon-nitrogen relationships "

This website has great info and lots of it!  This page is about C:N but click on the links for other topics of composting such as moisture, temp, inocula, etc.
http://whatcom.wsu.edu/ag/compost/fundamentals/needs_carbon_nitrogen.htm


--- "Compost Fundamentals: Why we compost!"

This is the start page for the previous link, it has lots of good info.
http://whatcom.wsu.edu/ag/compost/fundamentals/



--- "Online Compost Calculator"

This site has lots of good info and is well designed for those just getting to know the compost process (but to me it's kinda childish format for the site :frown: )
http://www.compostinfo.com/tutorial/ElementOfComposting.htm



--- "Compost Calculator"

Here is another calculator, but I warn against using this link and the previous one.  I highly suggest you do the math yourself, too many variables to trust a calculator IMO...
http://www.milkwood.net/content/view/47/30/




Quote:

Cervantes said:
Once fully composted, isn't all home grown compost the same?




Pretty much.  The important final factors are:

1. The final C:N ratio which should be about 10:1 to 17:1, with 13:1 being pretty ideal.

2. Nutrient content.  I.e. levels of N, P, K, Ca, etc.  Most all 'good' and finished compost has pretty similar levels of nutrients.

3. Microbial populations.  Finished 'good' compost should be free from harmful microbes (most concern is human pathogens like E.coli) and have strong numbers of beneficial microbes.  Assays of compost is wise if one is not sure...

Other than that some differences will be the levels of fulvic and humic acids along with other organic substances and chemicals.



Quote:

Cervantes said:
Very few if any threads actually show a person's success when growing on their own home grown compost.




I am not in a location where I can build a proper compost pile but I will be soon.  By this fall I'll have some finished compost and I'll do a few grow-logs with it for ya :thumbup:



Quote:

Cervantes said:
It seems to me that composting may be even more rewarding than poo, since composting is basically man's way of helping nature partially digest plant matter... where poo is a cow or horse's way of doing the same thing.




Compost is far superior to h.manure.  If not only because of the microbial content of 'good' compost, but because of all the extra organic chemicals and substances.  Not to mention compost has a greater nutrient profile than h.manure. 



Quote:

Cervantes said:
The thing is; few people have horses or cows. More people have yards, autumn leaves, vegetable waste, and lawn trimmings.




Sooo true.  But I agree, most people misunderstand what compost is and how to compost (as a noun and a verb).  I get mad around here, people try to sell me 'compost' when it's just decomposed yard waste, lol.  Compost *must* be created via. a thermogenic process or it's not compost, it just decomposed organic matter.


Quote:

Cervantes said:
Most of the compost recipes on this website call for poo... but is poo really needed? Isn't compost... well compost?




No it's not needed but it's a great material as a nitrogen source.  Fresh h.manure with higher % moisture has a lower C:N ratio of around 20:1 and aged h.manure has a higher C:N ratio of about 25:1 to 30:1.  Onc can use countless materials to form a compost pile.  H.manure is mostly free so it's a good choice.



Quote:

Cervantes said:
Compost happens naturally,




No.  Decomposition happen naturally, turning organic matter into humus.


Quote:

Cervantes said:
but humans can speed the process up by making a compost pile




Pretty much true.  A compost pile will speed up the process and the final compost will be much higher quality and virtually free from human pathogens (a BIG deal to the FDA).  Decomposed organic matter is like the wild-west compared to properly made compost.

 

Quote:

Cervantes said:
A compost pile allows for many microorganisms to process the plant material and turn it into compost more quickly. If the pile is large enough, the organisms will heat the middle of the pile to temps close to 150 degrees.




Yes, but not only plant material, manures are added as well as other materials.  The smallest pile one should use is 3'x3'x3'.  The microbial thermal death range you mentioned *must* be reached or one will not be composting (verb) or create compost (noun).


Quote:

Cervantes said:
By mixing the compost pile, a human can speed the process further. Mixing puts new material into the hot center of the pile... thus aiding the natural process.




The main reason to mix is to keep the pile aerobic and keep the moisture content even as possible thought the pile.  Most people spray the pile with water when mixing if it's too dry.  Most importantly it must be aerobic...



Quote:

Cervantes said:
With regular maintenance, you can make your own compost in less than a season... and you're recycling your own yard waste.




So true.  A couple of months and walla!  Sweet, sweet, black gold...humus :smile:


Quote:

Cervantes said:
To make compost quickly, it is important to have roughly a 50/50 mix of brown material (leaves, twigs... etc) and green material (grass trimmings, greens... etc).




No, not at all.  One wants a C:N ratio of 25:1 to 40:1; with about 30:1 being ideal.  It doesn't matter what ratios you mix the material if the final C:N ratio is not correct.


Quote:

Cervantes said:
I understand that this 50/50 balance can speed things up




Nope.  A 50/50 balance won't seed things up, in fact, unless it's 50/50 with the proper C:N ratio it will slow down or stop the thermal composting process. 


Quote:

Cervantes said:
but even if you don't have a perfect 50/50 mix... it will turn into compost eventually.




Nope.  It will eventually turn into decomposed organic matter.  Compost is a very specific thermal/microbial process and final product.  (that's a very important distinction)



...OK, i've reached my quotation limit, I have to finish this post in a next post below...


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
Re: Composting for Dummies [Re: Livingston] * 1
    #10710921 - 07/20/09 05:42 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
Again, isn't compost... compost?




Sorry to say, no.  Around here I can not find compost, only decomposed (partially or fully) organic matter labeled as compost, mostly wood chips mixed with h.manure (grrrr!!!!)


Quote:

Cervantes said:
Make a pile, keep it moist, and turn it/fluff it every few days (or more often if you wish) until it turns into brown/black earthy-smelling stuff... and you're good to go. Right?




Yea as along as you have the correct C:N ratio to being with and you meet the other criteria I laid out for ya.  And turning the pile every week or two is fine...trust me, turning a pile which is at least 3'x3'x3' hurts the ol' spine!


Quote:

Cervantes said:
Pasteurize... then get it to field capacity and you're good to go.




Errr.  Don't you have that backwards?  It's bring to field capacity then pasteurize (depending upon pasteurization methods...)


[1] "MushroomSubstrate Preparation Odor-Management Plan"
http://www.americanmushroom.org/MshrmSubstr.pdf



[2] "The Carbon/Nitrogen Ratio"
http://www.organicgardening.com/feature/0,7518,s1-5-21-112,00.html




--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Edited by Livingston (07/20/09 06:20 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
Re: Composting for Dummies [Re: Doc_T]
    #10710943 - 07/20/09 05:46 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

hey Doc_T,

Quote:

Doc_T said:
The starter microbes come from the poo, I believe. Without a source of poo, you'll have to supplement those somehow.




No not really.  They come from the air and the soil the compost pile is placed upon.  And from the materials used to make the compost pile.  Even if the materials used to make the pile were devoid of microbes the pile would still compost from the microbes in the air and from the soil...


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
Re: Composting for Dummies [Re: j_sun]
    #10710962 - 07/20/09 05:50 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Hey,

Quote:

j_sun said:
If your looking to start  a new compost pit your best bet would be to just get a bag of finished composted manure from your local home supercenter.  It will be full of beneficial microorganisms ready to consume your lawn and food waste.




I highly doubt that!  I have never seen a single bag of compost at any supercenter or any ag store for that matter.  Just cuz' they call it compost doesn't make it compost.  And if it's in a bag for any period of time over a few days the microbes are either going to die or become dormant and anaerobic microbes might take over.  Same deal with vermicast from a store, if it's in a sealed bag it's dead...that's a good basic rule to follow...


Quote:

j_sun said: Worms kick our butt at composting plus you get casings for free!




Worms don't make compost, and they don't compost.  They make vermicast.  To make compost there must be heat and microbial action.

HTH


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
Re: Composting for Dummies [Re: Lennyk]
    #10710978 - 07/20/09 05:54 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

hey,

Quote:

Lennyk said:
Could always pick up one of those turnable ones for a couple hundred bucks (not cheap but work fast and easy)




IMO they work for crap.  A 3'x3'x3' bin made from chicken wire is perfect for compost.  This way air has access to all sides (except bottom) and the minimal size for compost is reached.


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinehoudinihar
Adventurous Learner
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/12/08
Posts: 1,111
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: Composting for Dummies [Re: Livingston]
    #10710995 - 07/20/09 05:59 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

i have a plastic bin (garbage trash can, about 50 gals, with a lid--no holes there) and it has holes 1/2" drilled all over the place for air antry to help prevent anerobic conditions. i put straw and kitchen material inside and let it rip. i keep the bin in the shade and turn the insides every few days. can make compost fast.

houdinihar

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
Re: Composting for Dummies [Re: Olgualion]
    #10711003 - 07/20/09 06:02 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Hey,

Quote:

Olgualion said:
Not all composts are the same!  Many factors are involved, such as what goes into it and just what breaks it down.




Sooo true! :smile:


Quote:

Olgualion said:
In TMC it says that the purpose of composting is to create a nutritious environment capable of selectively sustaining mushroom mycelium while at the same time making the environment unsuitable for competitor organisms(paraphrased).




No, not really.  When composting we are trying to break down organic matter into humus state.  It's not about selectively sustaining mycelium, but it is about killing harmful microbes.  All finished compost will support mushroom mycelium just fine...



Quote:

Olgualion said:
The main ingredient in this type of composting is straw (wheat generally preferred).




Again, I think TMC got some things confused or Paul did a poor job explaining it.  sure, wheat stray is a good source of carbon, but it shouldn't be the 'main' material used.  It must be balanced with nitrogen rich material.  And adding material rich in carbohydrates (ie. cottonseed meal, etc) is wise for compost intended for mushroom farming. 


Quote:

Olgualion said:In TMC, stable bedding is stated as being a preferred starting material.  It says 30-40% of the droppings are comprised of living microorganisms which accelerate the composting process.




I would like to see citations on Paul's info before I believe the 30-40% figure, by what, volume?  Weight?

If the microbes within the bedding are thermogentic they could be useful, otherwise they will be killed.


Quote:

Olgualion said:
To this supplements are added in a specific proportion of carbon:nitrogen.

It is a pretty precise procedure that yields a very selective compost.




YESS!!! Sweet, I'm super stoked to see other people are up on composting :wink:



Quote:

Olgualion said:I've always wanted to make a worm bin to have worms compost my waste food and stuff.




They don't make compost, they make vermicast. 

All the best!


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
Re: Composting for Dummies [Re: houdinihar]
    #10711012 - 07/20/09 06:05 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

hey,

Quote:

houdinihar said:
i have a plastic bin (garbage trash can, about 50 gals, with a lid--no holes there) and it has holes 1/2" drilled all over the place for air antry to help prevent anerobic conditions. i put straw and kitchen material inside and let it rip. i keep the bin in the shade and turn the insides every few days. can make compost fast.




I have doubts it's quality compost, or compost at all. Do you know the starting C:N ratio?

I would like to suggest to anyone who makes their own compost that they get it assayed.  It's super cheap and well worth the price, and then you'll know if you did it right or not!!!

Dr. Elain Ingham PhD runs "Soil Foodweb International" (SFI) and is at the forefront of composting and microbial horticulture.  Check out her site and ask me if you don't know which assay to get.  Or call and talk to the folks at SFI, they are VERY smart!

http://oregonfoodweb.com/



--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Edited by Livingston (07/20/09 06:06 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
Re: Composting for Dummies [Re: Olgualion]
    #10711034 - 07/20/09 06:14 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Hey again,

Quote:

Olgualion said:
Nice to see you too Cervantes! :smile:

I worry that the final composts structure and nutrient makeup are related to the method used to produce it.




Not as much as the method as the material...


Quote:

Olgualion said:
There are certain types of bacteria that are selectively propogated within strict temperature ranges during the process Stamets talks about in TMC.




It's not that specific microbes (bacteria and fungi) are propgaed at a cretin temperature.  It's that non-thermetic microbes will be killed once the pile reaches thermal death range.  Once that happens the remaining thermal microbes are free to reproduce and begin the composting process.  While most themetic microbes will reproduce in lower temps, they generally thrive in higher temps (~140-180F).


Quote:

Olgualion said:
I wonder if your idea will produce these necessary bacteria and if your end product will be just capable of supporting mycelial growth and fruiting at 60% BE or will it be a wonderful substrate that encourages prolific fruiting at 150% BE.




As long as the starting mix came to about C:N of 30:1 and the moisture content was correct and the thermal death range was reached the final compost should be great.  If those issues were not ideal then the final product will most likely not be compost or very poor compost with bad smells, texture and harmful microbes.



Quote:

Olgualion said:
I wish an awesome compost could be created in our backyards!  I'd definitely do it!  I am very curious to see your results, and wish you success Cervantes!




It can, very easier.  Just read the first posts I made to Cervantes and your all all set.  It's easier than it seems, trust me :smile:.

But, I suggest anyone who is new to making compost get their compost assayed at SFI.  Otherwise you don't know if it's 'good' compost or not:

http://oregonfoodweb.com/

All the best!


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
Re: Composting for Dummies [Re: Rose]
    #10711042 - 07/20/09 06:17 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Hey,

Quote:

Cervantes said:
Quote:

Lennyk said:

Agar always said a good compost was number 1, while coir was a close 3rd.






Agar has a great recipe for compost too (man, I miss him)... but I'd rather not have to buy things to put in the compost. That kinda' defeats the purpose of a compost pile.




I have to disagree.  I don't like his compost method at all.  Too many fruits and stuff.  The C:N ratio *must* be the most important consideration, everything else is secondary.  Great compost can be made with h.manure (fresh and/or aged) along with fresh and aged lawn clippings and leaves...all for free! :smile:


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
Re: Composting for Dummies [Re: Livingston]
    #10711045 - 07/20/09 06:17 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Ok...I gotta go now.  I'm looking forward to your experiences Cervantes!


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRoseM
Devil's Advocate
Female User Gallery


Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Composting for Dummies [Re: Livingston]
    #10711313 - 07/20/09 07:29 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Once again, Livingston, you broke my brain. Still, most of what you said makes sense. I'm gonna' digest it all and come back with questions.

It is nice to see someone who knows quite a bit about this stuff.

I think DIY compost can become much more popular around here, if people can see a simple way to make it.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRoseM
Devil's Advocate
Female User Gallery


Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Composting for Dummies [Re: Livingston]
    #10712113 - 07/20/09 09:53 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Would you add gypsum after the composting process is finished then?

You listed two sets of ratios... one varied from like 20 to 1 - 40 to 1 with 30 to 1 being ideal... then another list starting at 10 to 1 with 13 to 1 being ideal. What is the difference there between those two sets of optimal ratios?

Also, take a look at this thread's title.

When you have the time, would you mind simplifying your process into one concise post? This place needs a good compost tek and I am not the man to do it.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
Re: Composting for Dummies [Re: Rose]
    #10726909 - 07/23/09 01:14 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Hey C,

After a couple of days of constant reading and studding on the process of making 'natural' and 'synthetic' mushroom composts I have come up with something very excellent and unique not found anywhere else!

However, if one is to make true mushroom compost that person must be willing to do a good bit of easy math and lots of playing/adjusting amounts of inputs to reach a certain goal, namely: a C:N ratio of 30:1 to 33:1 and a starting nitrogen content of 1.5-1.7% for natural compost and 1.75-2.25% for synthetic compost...achieving both of those in one pile while *not* using any animal manures or synthetic fertilizers is not an easy task at all...

I did however design an easy to follow method for 'dummies' (as per your title).  This method is gleaned from a few friends and my past experiences.  This method will create a 'normal' compost, not one geared for growing mushrooms.  The biggest difference is the nutrient content of the final compost.

I will post this compost how-to for dummies this week :smile: 

Oh yea, I made a typo.  The pile should never reach 180F, it should never go above 160F. 

Please note that even though 'regular' compost will have a lower NPK rating then 'natural' compost for mushroom growing (h.manure/bedding), it should still have better NPK levels than coco-coir or aged h.manure.  The traditional type of compost for growing mushrooms is 'natural' and the inputs are h.manure and stall bedding.  The NPK of that compost is about 2-1-2.  When scientists where first designing synthetic compost they did so because h.manure was getting more scare and expensive.  Most early attempts at growing mushrooms on synthetic compost have a much lower BE than 'natural' compost.  So that is why today our composts for mushroom culture should have a final NPK ratio of around 2.0-2.5% / 0.5-1.5% / 1.5-2.0%.  See "Preparation of synthetic composts of mushroom culture".


Here are the goals of my 'natural' vegan mushroom compost:
  • 3-4 compost method


  • Majority N within compost as ammonium, not nitrate.  Mycelium uses ammonium better than nitrate (I believe).


  • C:N ratio of 30:1 to 33:1


  • Starting concentration of nitrogen = 1.5-1.7%


  • Ending concentration of nitrogen = 2.0-2.5%


  • Basic NPK goals = 2-1-2-1 (N-P-K-Ca)


  • Strong levels of "linoleic acid" which improves mycelium growth and mushroom yield.  Linoleic acid is thought to what offers benefit from supplementing with vegetable oil (ie. lipids).


  • Ending ammonia content = <0.1-10ppm


  • Ending moisture content = 60-70%


  • No manure of any kind to lower chance of human pathogens begin propagated (ex. E.coli)







Quote:

Cervantes said:
Would you add gypsum after the composting process is finished then?




It is added when the compost pile is mixed up, before composting starts.





Quote:

Cervantes said:
Would you add gypsum after the composting process is finished then?


You listed two sets of ratios... one varied from like 20 to 1 - 40 to 1 with 30 to 1 being ideal... then another list starting at 10 to 1 with 13 to 1 being ideal. What is the difference there between those two sets of optimal ratios?




Higher number is starting (30: to 40:1), lower is finished compost (10:1 to 13:1).


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2  [ show all ]

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   North Spore Bulk Substrate   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   OlympusMyco.com Olympus Myco Bulk Substrate   Mushroom-Hut Substrate Mix   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Bulk substrates: Manure/compost vs. Straw Olgualion 3,109 5 12/14/01 10:22 AM
by Olgualion
* Bluethumbs compost and spawnmate Q? Olgualion 769 2 02/28/02 02:31 PM
by Olgualion
* 40lb bag of composted cow manure? RedHead 4,496 6 02/08/02 02:25 PM
by RedHead
* mushroom compost XAZIA 1,220 5 12/19/01 09:29 AM
by XAZIA
* What's the best "Growing for Dummies" kit? GoBlue! 2,250 13 11/09/02 08:54 AM
by Bi0TeK
* 100% Guaranteed Casing Tek Captain Cubensis 5,183 9 02/13/08 11:52 PM
by Bigkahuna
* growing for dummies?
( 1 2 all )
evileye001 2,759 31 09/01/15 03:05 PM
by evileye001
* Composting SixTango 3,651 5 05/12/03 01:00 PM
by kykeon

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Shroomism, george castanza, RogerRabbit, veggie, mushboy, fahtster, LogicaL Chaos, 13shrooms, Stipe-n Cap, Pastywhyte, bodhisatta, Tormato, Land Trout, A.k.a
3,583 topic views. 27 members, 137 guests and 30 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.027 seconds spending 0.006 seconds on 12 queries.