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InvisibleMunchauzen
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Re: Liquid spawn: Slurry In a Hurry Spawn: Without the spawn [Re: som776]
    #23009909 - 03/15/16 03:25 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

add the gypsum when the water cools down, not when its hot.

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Re: Liquid spawn: Slurry In a Hurry Spawn: Without the spawn [Re: Munchauzen]
    #23010156 - 03/15/16 04:50 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

hey guys im copying and pasting this response and ill clean it up when i have more time. sorry got to run.


Quote:

It seems that when I attempt the slurry tek my quart jars  ,which are 2/3rds full always seem to stall at about 90 % , and if if I load my jars  with less  rye grain , the bottom of the jar is always really wet and mushy . Slurry is not to runny or thick after blended. .
      I'm thinking it might be my grain prep . I rinse the grains many times . Then let air dry , after there dry ( paper towel test shows no moisture at all )
Then I load jars with grain , no water in the jars .  Is this wrong and should I be adding water to the jars ?
After there loaded I pc for 90 min at 15 psi , with towel under jars so they are not in direct contact with bottom of pc.
Do you have a clue as to why they turn so mushy at bottom , and don't colonize all the way through unless I fill jar only 1/3 full ( 1/3 still becomes mushy at bottom instead of that firm mycelium feel .





if the slurry is not that thick you could lower your water content on the blend. ive done it with wbs and it does well. so slight adjustments may need to be made on the rye grain as it may not hold as much water. i know that the oats do hold quite a bit of water and are forgiving.

so, if its stalling out like that at the bottoms. its probably too much water and has gone bacterial. it sounds that way at least from the description. try using far less slurry when you pour it. this may offset the overload of water. also, it could be the grain is already over cooked to begin with. do you have any images of your prepped jars? if there are tons of burst grains after you pressure cooked your grain, then its overcooked or over prepped.

are you using grain slurries or pf jar slurries? if pf jar it should be mudlike consistency. if its a grain jar it should be soup like consistency.


does your grain look mushy before you inoculate it?

it could be that the 90 minutes is overkill. i don't think it should be, but if you see that the grain is already broken open more than a few kernals prior to inoculation this isn't good. adding too much water to grain that is broken open like that will cause issues. now, i do oats like this and wbs like this:


https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22158748

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5265629

although i add a dash of pickling lime in my boiled water soak for the wbs. it helps get the gunk off the seed.

som i quickly looked at your images. from the images you only have about 1/4 of your quart jar filled with grain. id fill it to 3/4th full. i have a feeling your adding too much liquid now that i see the images. try lowering that volume of slurry especially if your using 1/4 full jar of grain. i say a tablespoon poured per jar and i mean a 3/4 full grain jar.


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Re: Liquid spawn: Slurry In a Hurry Spawn: Without the spawn [Re: som776]
    #23011183 - 03/15/16 10:42 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Can i just skip the simmer all together? Some guy gave that advice for to some when prepping rye jars ,but its not like my jars looked wet when I was about to pc them.  Could burst kernel and that extra starch from it bursting be the case?

Thanks again you guys.

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Re: Liquid spawn: Slurry In a Hurry Spawn: Without the spawn [Re: eatyualive]
    #23011291 - 03/15/16 11:18 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks eats . I also think it might be that I am pouring to much slurry per jar. Might have been 2 to 4 tablespoons each jar .

I know it isn't ideal to do rye in half pints but ran out of quarts and didn't want to waste the cooked berries .

In the second pic why didn't it colonize in middle ? Should I shake it or just throw it out?  Sorry one more question. Do my g.e. ports look ok ?


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Re: Liquid spawn: Slurry In a Hurry Spawn: Without the spawn [Re: som776]
    #23011349 - 03/15/16 11:50 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

1 tablespoon is about the max you'll need per quart of grain.


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Re: Liquid spawn: Slurry In a Hurry Spawn: Without the spawn [Re: Munchauzen]
    #23011878 - 03/16/16 07:18 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)


This is a pic of my wbs jars after 72 hours. There is no sign of contam and definite myc growing. I was in a hurry because my cakes started to pin invitro so I forgot to drill holes in the lids since i was pouring, and my slurry was like spooning mud into the jars. Can my slow colonization be from lack of Fae or not enough moisture? Could i just take a few cc of streile water and shoot it into my jars with a shake? Any help would be appreciated.


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Re: Liquid spawn: Slurry In a Hurry Spawn: Without the spawn [Re: Myko Fanatikos]
    #23012334 - 03/16/16 10:36 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Myko - I have some jars that are just a few days ahead of yours and they looked just like that after about 48 hours. Be patient, another 3 days on and my jars are basically done.

Your wbs looks to be fine from your pics. How did you prep it? Also, no there's no FAE during grain colonization (someone correct me if I'm wrong here), just minimal GE (gas exchange) through the filter in the lid. How did you prep your lids?

This is my first time with this tek, but it looks like you've got multiple innoc points going with each jar, which is great and one of the primary reasons this tek is so effective. Give it a couple days...:smile:

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Re: Liquid spawn: Slurry In a Hurry Spawn: Without the spawn [Re: trravis]
    #23012391 - 03/16/16 10:56 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)



Here's my jars after 48 hours looking pretty similar to your pic. They're basically done now, 3 days later :smile:

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OfflineMyko Fanatikos
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Re: Liquid spawn: Slurry In a Hurry Spawn: Without the spawn [Re: trravis]
    #23012547 - 03/16/16 11:47 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I used foomans wbs tek and I didn't use any tek for my lids. My brf jars were pinning invitro.

I wasn't planning on birthing for a couple more days so it was kindof rushed and I forgot to drill holes.

I have plain lids with no holes for GE or Fae. I considered drilling holes in them in my SAB but it sounds like a really bad idea considering g they are already sterilized and colonizing.

I figures they are colonizing mainly from the inside and I shook for 2 minutes with each jar because my slurry was very thick to be sure it was spread out.

So basically, no lid prep at all, and foomans wbs tek.


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Re: Liquid spawn: Slurry In a Hurry Spawn: Without the spawn [Re: Myko Fanatikos]
    #23012594 - 03/16/16 11:59 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Eeeeek, I don't know how that's likely to turn out.

My understanding is that colonization requires at least some GE. I'm guessing it'll start off fine but as the process progresses it will eventually come to a halt as gaseous byproducts (whatever those may be? CO2? I dunno...) build up in the jar.

You might wanna start a separate thread for visibility. I'd be interested to hear what others have to say on the situation.

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Re: Liquid spawn: Slurry In a Hurry Spawn: Without the spawn [Re: trravis]
    #23012732 - 03/16/16 12:52 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah I though the co2 buildup may eventually cause growth to stall and maybe produce some type of contam. I think I'm going to wait until tonight and see where they are at.

I may have to drill holes in separate lids,sterilize and transfer them to my wbs jars...?

It should move faster being a slurried lc which is great in terms of beatig out contamination but I think it.was a mistake forgetting the lids.

I did start a separate thread but no opinions on it yet.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23012031


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Re: Liquid spawn: Slurry In a Hurry Spawn: Without the spawn [Re: Myko Fanatikos]
    #23013808 - 03/16/16 05:59 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

So, since I've come home from work and there isn't much difference in the myc growth in my jars I've decided to sterilize new lids and replace the ones currently on my wbs jars.

I'm using my 8 lids from my pf jars with 4 1/8 inch holes and 2 new lids I drilled 1/4th inch holes which I covered with micropore tape.

I'll update if only for more information towards GE in wbs jars. Wish me luck!!


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Re: Liquid spawn: Slurry In a Hurry Spawn: Without the spawn [Re: Myko Fanatikos]
    #23016499 - 03/17/16 12:42 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I've got a question about using slurry to spawn and sterilization.

Basically, I'm doing a multitub spawn and I only have one blender jar so I started thinking about how to get all that water sterilized and ready to slurry for multiple tubs. I was having a tough time figuring it out but then I realized maybe it doesn't matter.

Frank suggests dunking grains in tap water before spawning and the whole spawning process is done open-air anyway, so is it even important to use sterilized water in the spawn process? I can see it being a good idea, but it seems like the whole spawn process is already pretty "messy" and tap water is even already introduced during the process anyway.

Anywho, unless members here opine otherwise, I think I'm just going to boil some water and use that once it has cooled. If sterilizing is not necessary in this step, it could make slurry spawning a little easier.

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Re: Liquid spawn: Slurry In a Hurry Spawn: Without the spawn [Re: trravis]
    #23016831 - 03/17/16 02:53 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I'm no expert but if I read that correctly you can sterilize the water inside the quart jar you plan on making your slurry in at the same time you sterilize everything else.

I put my quart jar (with water) a butter knife, my blender parts and sterilized it all together.


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Re: Liquid spawn: Slurry In a Hurry Spawn: Without the spawn [Re: Myko Fanatikos]
    #23016976 - 03/17/16 03:51 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Can i just skip the simmer all together? Some guy gave that advice for to some when prepping rye jars ,but its not like my jars looked wet when I was about to pc them.  Could burst kernel and that extra starch from it bursting be the case?

Thanks again you guys.

Thanks eats . I also think it might be that I am pouring to much slurry per jar. Might have been 2 to 4 tablespoons each jar .

I know it isn't ideal to do rye in half pints but ran out of quarts and didn't want to waste the cooked berries .

In the second pic why didn't it colonize in middle ? Should I shake it or just throw it out?  Sorry one more question. Do my g.e. ports look ok ?




som, since your using pint jars you want to reduce the volume of slurry inoculant by half of what you would for a quart jar. so i use 1 tablespoon per quart jar or even just a quick pour. you would want to do half that amount. also the fact that your using pint jars and they are only about 1/3 full means you are way overpouring. it does not take much. 1 pf jar can inoculate up to 100 quart jars of grain with a slurry. so, what you want to do is reduce your inoculant big time. you only need a tiny little drop of slurry for the jars your showing in your picture. that is the problem. definitely. i don't think it was your grain prep at all now.

travis, do you have any updated pics? i don't dunk grain at all. it isn't necessary. id skip that step. anything i can do to make less work, is what i do. in the end for me, slurry is far less work than g2g or anything else. even LI. but, it doesn't mean there isn't a place for everything. i use just about all methods for certain reasons and circumstances. now, ive used some coir/verm/gypsum unsterilized, untreated with any heat. it worked. i did get some contams on one tub. but i had decent success. wish i had more time to explore it. but this is an interesting read. i do suggest pasteurizing bulk substrates. maybe in the near future i will go back and try this out again.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22728535/fpart/1/vc/1

myko, ive used lids with no holes in the past. i just cracked them a little. they do work. make sure you tighten the lid before shaking. then loosen again during colonization. you shouldn't need to shake them after the inoculant starts to leap off. it should colonize in 3-4 days. im not sure how the slurry will respond with the lids your using. if the mycelia gets GE it should be fine.

you can buy 1 or 2 synthetic filter discs and thats enough for a number of jars. i like to use synthetic filter discs cut into nickel size pieces over a 1/4" drilled hole. i rtv them to the lid. and ive had some for more than 10 years that are still working great. every once in a while a filter will come off.




also, tombosley has experience and success using this method. he can give you some good pointers. :thumbup:

myko, correct, you can wrap your utensils in foil. pressure cook them in the same batch as your blade/blender jar/water. hell you could even do pasty plate sin there. shit when im using my pc, if i have extra room and im doing clean work ill pc pour lids, knives, spoons, swabs, you name it. it only takes 20 mins at 15psi to sterilize all of that at once. when i do pasty plastes. i do them for 45 mins at 15psi. you can still sterilize all of that for longer and it won't be an issue. but minimum pressure cook 20 minutes. i also do the same as you describe when im making grain jars. there is a small space you can fit utensils in.


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Edited by eatyualive (03/17/16 04:05 PM)

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Re: Liquid spawn: Slurry In a Hurry Spawn: Without the spawn [Re: eatyualive]
    #23017279 - 03/17/16 05:13 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Dido on the sfd's. Though I found that overtime the clear indoor/outdoor 100% Silicon works better(and is cheaper). I think the downfall is you have to wait a full 24 hrs for the clear silicon to cure. Also with those white plastic jar lids you can use EZ Felt(stiff felt shape cutouts found at walmart and arts and craft stores/sections all around, like these >>>>the stiff thicker ones NOT THE FLIMSY FELT SHEETS)
and you can melt them on permanently. Really you can't even rip them off if you try. The EZ felt comes in many shapes and colors So don't be discouraged if you can't find smiley faces. It may take you a lid or two to fully get the technique down but once you have a feel for it it is the EASIEST, fastest, most permanent, and least messy method of making filtered lids period. Each lid is done in just a few seconds.

I use a soldering iron to make my holes in the lids and then use a butane torch lighter to melt around the hole, then push a nickel sized EZ Felt cutout onto the hole. Then immediately flip it upside down and push down from the underside. Trust me sounds more complicated than it is. Here's the TEK by Dialated that has pics and probably a better explanation https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/20406855/fpart/1/vc/1 .

The only thing is I highly recommend using EZ felt over the regular sfd's because the EZ Felt makes a much better bond to the melted plastic(permanent). either way both still work very well with this method and are better than glued on IMO. I don't use injection ports either so just skip that part of the tek if you don't plan on using them either...  NOW I don't use silicon for any of my lids any more, I converted all my lids to melted on EZ Felt filters...  I've even converted all my pastyplates to melted on EZ Felt Filters.
Sorry Eat if this was a little too much off topic but I felt since you brought it up and if anyone else was also reading along and curious they could find all the info here.


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Edited by tombosley8 (03/17/16 05:22 PM)

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OfflineMyko Fanatikos
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Re: Liquid spawn: Slurry In a Hurry Spawn: Without the spawn [Re: tombosley8]
    #23017575 - 03/17/16 06:35 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I sterilized 10 separate lids with holes and micropore tape, all wrapped separately in foil and then wrapped together in a larger piece of foil.

I sterilized at 15 psi for about 40 minutes just to be safe.

I wiped the top of my jars and the lids wih iso, It took about 1 second inside my SAB to switch the old cap with the new cap. I did 3 at a time, 4 the last time but it was crammed.

In less than 24 hours there is a very noticeable difference in the myc growth. It may be attributed to GE or maybe because it's a slurry.

I would have kept half capped to test it but I'm a newbie and didn't want to mess up my first attempt at this.


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Re: Liquid spawn: Slurry In a Hurry Spawn: Without the spawn [Re: Myko Fanatikos]
    #23018580 - 03/17/16 10:16 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Sorry Eat, no updated pics. I'm gonna be gone for the weekend and I just gave them a final shake to ensure a good distribution and kind of a do a recovery test for contams. But, for all intents and purposes they are done.

Also did another 10 jars with a slurry that'll hopefully have everything nearly colonized by Monday. Actually, the innoc was really sludgy. I used 1 qt grain to about a pint of water but ended up pouring out most of the water after blending in order to not mess up the moisture content of the receiving jars. Lots of sludge, but low moisture and plenty of shaking so I'm expecting those things to go quick.

I think I did a bad job explaining my question. Next week, I'd like to make around 8 qts of slurry to use in combination with colonized WBS to spawn. Problem is, I only have one blender jar and it is a regular mouth qt jar; all the rest of my jars are wide mouth qts. So, I can only properly sterilize (and keep sealed) one qt of water using my blender jar. If I sterilized water in the other qt jars I would have to open it in the SAB to pour it into the blender jar, both somewhat defeating the purpose but also maybe not a big deal because the water sterilized in the blender jar would still get exposed to the air in the SAB anyway. Anyway, I thought about Franks tek (which I used last time) and the fact that spawning happens in an un-sterile environment....at the point of spawning the grains and substrate material are already being exposed to the open air and, if following a tek like Frank's, already exposed to unsterilized tap water during the pre-spawn dunk. So, I arrived at the question of whether or not it is necessary to sterilize water used to make spawn slurries. For slurry as an innoc to sterilized grain, yes of course. But does slurry used for spawning need to use sterilized water? As soon as the slurry is made, it's gonna be exposed to open air anyway.  Anyway, sorry for the wall of text. 

More questions for you....
As far as dunking, are you talking about the dunking WBS as the first step in the process (i.e. before simmering and jarring for the PC)? Or are you talking about dunking after the jars have colonized and been broken up to spawn? As I understand it, the pre-spawn dunk can be helpful to hydrate grains before spawn? That said, any step I can skip I am happy to skip :smile:

As far as pasteurization, I've been hearing that the bucket tek is a pretty reliable, so I was going to go with that again. That said, half my last tubs came down with trich. Do you find that a full over pasteurization is helpful?

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Re: Liquid spawn: Slurry In a Hurry Spawn: Without the spawn [Re: trravis]
    #23018591 - 03/17/16 10:18 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Oh yeah, thanks for the link.

What was your overall take on the experience? Seems like azure's trial ended in contams, but yours was marginally successful followed by very successful. Still recommending pasteurization? Bucket tek a good middle ground or a waste of time in your eyes?

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Re: Liquid spawn: Slurry In a Hurry Spawn: Without the spawn [Re: trravis]
    #23021533 - 03/18/16 08:21 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

the tub i had contam, was an old culture that was extremely slow. so i already had the notion it was a bad idea but wanted to see both perspectives of a fresh clean culture, and an old failing culture. so that tub contaminated but i already knew it would to begin with. but later i used two good clones with tex and AA+ that had great results. the tex didn't have as stellar of a pinset or flush as my normal flushes with heat treated coir. but, the AA+ performed just as good as heat treated coir. yields were in the same range and everything was about the same speed. but it was much easier adding water to the bulk then spawning. rather than pasteurizing. in my opinion, pe and slow varieties may not be ideal for the non heat treated coir. but speedier varieties have more of a chance of fending off any issues. tex is a great one. id also say that thai varieties would do well. like thai lipa yai and kss.

you could use the blended water similar to how munch does his wedge and shakes it in sterile water. its the same idea. but you wouldn't need much of it. its essentially a GLC this way. you extract the mycelia off of the grain and pour that cloudy looking water into the receiving jars. ive done about 40 quarts a few times this way and it works great. but its also up to a 2 week colonization time. you don't even need to follow the rule this way. you could use 1 spoonfull volume of colonized grain with a clean culture and a lower volume of water that is enough to inoculate the number of jars your using. so if you pour about 1 tablespoon of liquid inoculant per quart jar. multiply that volume by quart jars and thats how much water you would add to the spoonful of mycelia your using.

my main purpose is speed, so i like the less than a week colonization times for liquids. but if your not in a hurry, you can use that GLC water to inoculate far more jars than a plate of LI or slurry. from experience i think 1 quart of that liquid could easily inoculate at least 150 quarts. i used maybe a pint on 1/3 of a quart of GLC on 40 quarts of grain.

yeah i have that problem as well with 1 quart regular mouth jar. but i also have a bunch of pints with regular mouth lids. so ill use 2 pints sterilized with water in them or with blade assemblies on. you can go to walmart and get a service pack for oster blenders that is 10$ and comes with  2 gaskets, a blender, black base. check the stock of your local walmart before you go. but those kits are usually hiding on the top shelf. i have 4 blade assemblies that i shift between.

ill pc 1 quart, 2 pints with 3 blade assemblies and do a bunch of slurries at once.

i don't care about the wall of text. its all good.


ive also sterilized a spoon with my 2 extra pints. scooped out a spoon full of grain and dropped it in each of those pints. the pints are half filled with water. and then use it like the GLC type method im talking about.

this is the GLC type method.

SLURRY OPTION 2: GS2G Transfer(Grain Slurry to Grain jar transfer): wbs grain jar blended and poured into other grain jars


A ratio of 1 pint grain spawn to 1/2 pint of water was used for 50 quarts of colonized grain.

Do all of this as sterile as possible. Research on sterile technique is assumed prior to this. You can make the slurry two different ways. You can transfer the grain and dump it directly into the blending jar. Or if your using a regular mouth quart with colonized grain in it, you can pour the water directly into the colonized grain jar and place the blender lid on top of that jar.

1. Fill a regular mouth quart jar half full of distilled water and place the blade assembly on it. Pressure cook for 20 mins at 15psi. Allow jar to cool.
2. Prepare your clean area(Shmuvbox, SAB, Flowhood) and your substrates and jars. Setup for spawning.
3. I use pint jars of colonized wbs for a 50 quart slurry. This allows me to dump that grain directly into the regular mouth quart blender jar with a quick transfer.

4.Using a phonebook, break up the grain inside the jar.
5.  Wipe everything with isopropyl before bringing it into your SAB. In your SAB, Take the colonized pint of grain and loosen the lid. Loosen the lid of the sterile water pint jar. Anytime you take something out of your clean work area (SAB) make sure to wipe down the outside with isopropyl before bringing it back in.

6. open both lids simultaneously and pour the grain into the blender jar with water and blade.
.
7. Blend on your oster blender base. Hold the jar in place with your hand while blending. I blend about 30 seconds until it looks like soup.

8. In your SAB, Pour the grain slurry into your quarts jars. You pour by eye about 1 tablespoon volume of slurry per Quart Grain Jar.
9. Shake the jars for a minute each. Try and get that liquid distributed and touching every piece of grain in the jar. Wait 3-4 days until full colonization. Give it a day or two more and then your ready to spawn your tubs. You can shake your grain a day before spawning to test for any contamination.

Regular Mouth Lids


Quarts and Pints(Pints will each be used as masters to slurry 100 more quarts each. In the last picture you can see all the colonized pints and 1 quart that i slurried. all the colonized jars are on the last bottom picture. each one of those pints will be used as a master for more than 30 jars at a time)judging from experience, each pint can do at least 200 quart jars of grain. i easily did 30 tonight and had to throw out 2/3rds of the pint jar of grain leftover.




watch carcasex's video at the first post in this thread. specifically he does a grain slurry in this video. what he does is take one chunk of grain and drop it in his blender. blend it, then pour. real simple. you won't even need the entire quart if your only inoculating 10 quarts. a spoonful of grain will work. just like a slice of agar will. or even a chunk of a pf cake. all you need is colonized mycelia it does not matter what media you use. he just broke up the grain by shaking his grain jar. then dumps a little into his water/blender jar. real simple. no different than LI doing a tiger drop or using a wedge to swirl around in sterile water. all the same principles just different media. in the end, whatever works best for you is the way to go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Cu3sepCvnsY#t=95

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21927992#21927992


--------------------
EAT GETS SHIT DONE


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Edited by eatyualive (03/18/16 08:37 PM)

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